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Thread: The ~spiritual~ side ?

  1. #1
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    The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Spirituality - kṣaitrajña¹, some say asuratva¹. Do we know what this means ? Is it just a behavior ?


    I go to the temple: fine.
    I wear rudrākṣa or some other mālā (necklace ~rosary~) : fine
    I pray: fine
    I do pūjā : fine
    I wear a mark (tilika) on my forhead : fine
    I practice ahiṁsā (non-harm) to the best of my ability: fine
    I do this, and that, and the other to make me 'feel' spiritual : fine

    All these are fine and noble actions... yet , do you know who or what you are¹ ? One's real abhyāsa ( repeated or permanent exercise , discipline ) is to find out this one question. All other things then fall into place.

    So, the question - are you just going through the motions ? Doing things that makes one ~feel~ like a spiritual pursuit is taking place or is it really ( really ) occurring and being pursued ?

    This separates the window shopper from the mumukṣu¹. This is a hard question to ask yourself. But to one's self be true.


    iti śiva


    words
    • kṣaitrajña - spirituality or nature of the soul
    • asuratva - spirituality or divine dignity
    • who you are = niṣkalaṅka sahaja = unblemished nature ( that which is not caught up in all 'this' , the relative field of life)
    • mumukṣu those in quest of mumukṣā - desire for liberation... but from what ?
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 May 2014 at 07:25 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    So, the question - are you just going through the motions ? Doing things that makes one ~feel~ like a spiritual pursuit is taking place or is it really ( really ) occurring and being pursued ?

    This separates the window shopper from the mumukṣu.
    This, IMHO, is the crux that is offered in the conversation between sanatkumārā-ji and nārada found in the chāndogya upaniṣad ,canto 7.

    Nārada as a mantra-vit ( one well-versed in the sūtras and mantras) is well learned in all the veda's, sciences, proper worship, etc. yet nārada-ji approaches sanatkumārā (the mind-born son of brahma Himself) as the ajñānin, or one not fully-realized in Being, not knowing his real status or niṣkalaṅka sahaja (unblemished nature). Note here that 'knowing' is beyond book learning. Surely nārada-ji is well versed in scriptures that extolls the virtues of Self-realization ( re-recognition of one's true Being), yet the direct experience of this ( a.k.a. true unblemished knowledge) yas yet to dawn.
    How do we know this ? By sanatkumārā-ji's words saying to nārada-ji , all that you have learned (so far) has been nāmaivaitat - or knowledge (vid) in name only (nāmah). So, nārada-ji's first words are - 'revered Sir, please teach me'.

    Like that we too need to consider our own position. The mind will be quite happy fooling you that you are on the kṣaitrajña path; if it does, then it gets to remain intact, in control, while all along you have come to believe that your efforts are moving you along.


    praām
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 May 2014 at 11:14 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #3
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    so, yajvan , what are you saying ?

    Let's look to someone who knows. Papaji¹ said it this way to his student: If you wish to discover truth, 'you' must vanish.

    In my words taken from the statement above , it would be
    If you wish to re-recognize your true Self, this 'me' you think you are must vanish, it is in the way.

    So papaji's student prevails and realizes his true Self, none other then Being, presence. What does he say ?
    There is nothing you must do or change to be what you already are, says mūji¹. Yet he continues and says, there is something you must recognize in order to stop being what you are not.

    So, the question is , 'what are you not' ?

    praām

    1. papaji (Hariwansh Lal Poonja), who in turn was the śiṣya of rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi ; mūji is papa-ji's student.
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 May 2014 at 08:39 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    You are not the mind !

    Everything else "falls" into that !!

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  5. #5
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    I would think it is relatively intuitive for the average person to conclude they are not the mind.
    One would say, of course I am not the mind, I can see that!

    Yet the question still is who is saying this? Well I am !

    Who ( or what) is this 'I' ? Where does it reside ? Is it there all the time ? What is its reference point ?

    We all go though life identify things ( people, places, objects) and identifying actions ( running, talking, walking, singing, etc.), yet when asked who is this 'I', it is rarely considered.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    Yet the question still is who is saying this? Well I am !


    Who ( or what) is this 'I' ? Where does it reside ? Is it there all the time ? What is its reference point ?
    Consider this point of view. Did you ever notice that you can be aware of, say, an emotion ? I am mad ! Consciousness has this inspecting ability to notice that you are experiencing this emotion called mad. It is ~like~ something behind the notion of 'I' that can see the 'mad' happening. The same for being happy, anxious, nervous, etc. There is this ability to observe these things from the point of view of awareness.
    Now with that in mind ( with this inspection tool called awareness) try and find this 'I' that every one talks all about. This 'I' we think is the reference point for being the core 'you'. See if you can find it anywhere with this tool called awareness.

    praṇām

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    Now with that in mind ( with this inspection tool called awareness) try and find this 'I' that every one talks all about. This 'I' we think is the reference point for being the core 'you'. See if you can find it anywhere with this tool called awareness.
    It would be quite interesting to hear of anyone's discovery. For some the looking does not even begin. This is the window shopper - vaguely curious, and done mostly for entertainment purposes of the mind.
    Others may give it a try and come to naaah this isn't going anywhere. Others may continue and look - poking here and there - looking by inspection (vīkṣaṇa) and some testing (jijñāsu). What does this probing and looking yield ? Can one put their finger on this 'I' ? Each time you think you have cornered it, it is not there. Yet every day we say I am going to go here, do this, do that. I am happy and I am angry and I am hungry. Yet we say this but cannot find this 'I' . How can this be ?


    But yajvan even though I cannot find this 'I' , I still know I am 'me'.

    My reply: Really ? are you sure of this ? Tell me about this 'me' that will not include the dimension of ' I' ... I am a student, a mother, a uncle, a prisoner, a hindu, an American, a European, etc. We always come back to this elusive 'I' that we struggle to define. This same 'I' that is here right now but no longer exists once sound asleep, but then comes back upon awakening.

    Would you not think something as important as the identification of who one is via 'I' would be of paramount importance ? Was not this 'I' around when you were 5 years old, 10, 20, 30 years old, yet you cannot put your finger on it?

    iti śiva

    words

    • vīkṣaṇa - inspection , investigation
    • jijñāsu - inquiring into , examining , testing
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 May 2014 at 08:52 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    It would be quite interesting to hear of anyone's discovery.. poking here and there - looking by inspection (vīkṣaṇa) and some testing (jijñāsu). What does this probing and looking yield ? Can one put their finger on this 'I' ? Each time you think you have cornered it, it is not there.
    It would seem reasonable then to think this 'I' is not one thing but a collection of items. Of feelings, thoughts, emotions, inferences, ideas and the like. When we look for just one thing that we could call 'I' we are stumped and come up empty. 'I' is considered a singular pro-noun, and this compels one to look for 1 thing¹ to describe it.

    We can again infer this 'I' then is dynamic - it can expand, contract , ( this would be the ego¹ portion) and even disappear completely in deep sleep. In dream state, this 'I' could be almost any thing. In fact it can become multiple 'I's. Yet we never have to teach this 'I' to be these components, it just seems to occur all on its own.

    So , now the tough question... if this 'I' has so many dimensions to it, and it can come and go, can we really call it a firm reality that one bets their life on ( and that is exactly what we do); that is, the foundation for who we think we are ?

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • vīkṣaṇa - inspection , investigation
    • jijñāsu - inquiring into , examining , testing
    • 'I' in Latin or Greek is ego
    • I think mathematics has this 'i' correctly defined as an imaginary number .
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 May 2014 at 07:05 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #9

    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    ... It would seem reasonable then to think this 'I' is not one thing but a collection of items.
    ...
    • I think mathematics has this 'i' correctly defined as an imaginary number .
    Wonderful! Thank you for your postings here, I am enjoying reading them and find they help to clarify ones thoughts of this and that.

    "i" is a beautiful concept in mathematics one which reflects Mother Natures divine symmetry most perfectly; I couldn't not agree with you more.

    It is the existence of an infinite fractal form upon the Cartesian plane, between real and the unreal, that is rather a beautiful addition to the whole. One might assume, upon realizing the implication of this infinite existance between two states; that it takes separation from "i" to know that one is only a pixel of that; Thus accordingly the tattva unfold.

    "8i8" is my favorite depiction of this, if 8 be considered infinity, a lorenz attractor. We have a symmetrical depiction of the self about the self; as i reflects i about i "creating" that which I think, rather beautifully depicts a Butterfly.



    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 25 May 2014 at 03:17 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: The ~spiritual~ side ?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    So , now the tough question... if this 'I' has so many dimensions to it, and it can come and go, can we really call it a firm reality that one bets their life on ( and that is exactly what we do); that is, the foundation for who we think we are ?
    This is where the application of this quote may yield fruit:
    There is nothing you must do or change to be what you already are, says mūji¹. Yet he continues and says, there is something you must recognize in order to stop being what you are not.


    There is no action one needs to do to just be ; Yet this 'I' is so many things (as aforementioned) - a worker, husband, wife, student, prisoner, liberator, citizen, sādhu, etc. - all these things take effort. Being is beyond effort.
    We can use the analogy of space (ākāśa). No matter of all that activities that appear and go on inside of space it never needs to do anything and is completely unaffected by these actions that play inside of it. The same with Being. All things happen inside of it, and yet it is never blemished, it remains stainless. This 'I' whatever it is, goes on inside of Being and remains unaffected by the actions of 'I'. Some say Being is behind 'I', but then we fall into the trap that there are two things - Being and 'I'. This Being because it is essential to everything, permeates everything, so it is not separate, yet at the same time it is not consumed or blemished by any thing that we may think is a person, place, thing , or action ( or non-action).

    So, yajvan, if we went back to the quote that is offered by mūji shown above, what does one need to do to stop being what one is not?
    In a simple answer it is giving up all things that you imagine yourself to be - all things other then Being. Its like saying you began at zero, go back to zero. Along the way you picked up all these things that you think you are e.g. memories, thoughts, impressions, bla-bla-bla - all these notions of yourself , your identity.

    But note the mind does not like this - more specifically the 'me' or ego would not like this move as it suggests its eradication. It pushes back and continues the quest to be entertained/engaged. To insure its survival it may even appease ~you ~ and let you think you are on the spiritual path (kṣaitrajña, some say asuratva from, post 1 above). It says it is better to be on this path then to be exterminated! So, one finds themselve involved in the following:
    I go to the temple: fine.
    I wear rudrākṣa or some other mālā (necklace ~rosary~) : fine
    I pray: fine
    I do pūjā : fine
    I wear a mark (tilika) on my forhead : fine
    I practice ahiṁsā (non-harm) to the best of my ability: fine
    I do this, and that, and the other to make me 'feel' spiritual : fine

    The ego's trade-off for its survival.

    but yajvan, you mentioned
    Its like saying you began at zero, go back to zero.

    how to go back to zero, even beyond square one, to Being ?

    Ahhh! the very essence of a true spiritual endeavor... I continue to hear over and over from all the wise I have studied or have been instructed - remain silent.

    Now what does this really mean ? Surely it is beyond the notion of stop flapping the lips!


    iti śiva

    words
    • papaji (Hariwansh Lal Poonja), who in turn was the śiṣya of rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi ; mūji is papa-ji's student..
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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