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Thread: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

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    Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Pranam,
    Hari Narayana.

    Title: Brahman is beyond Vaikuntha
    Much has been said about Vaikuntha by me. There are many views about position of Vaikuntha. It is generally believed that Vaikuntha is outside of the material universe and eternal. But as I believe, this Vaikuntha is a sport of Maya of Vishnu. But Vaikuntha was created by him outside the seven covers or planes of Maya but within the field of Maya. There is a opinion of Agama that Vaikuntha is eternal and it never perishes. However Vedanta (Upanishada) says that at the time of total dissolution of the universe even Vaikuntha and Kailasa gets annihilated because they are ultimately forms only. At that time everything which has form gets merged in Brahman.


    The state where form, Guna, Karma, Time, Dharma are all not existing is really a supreme Brahman which is mentioned by Vedanta. No doubt, Vaikuntha is considered as a moksha. Because who goes there never returns here in this material world. However when time of total dissolution comes, those all Atma enjoying divine bless gets merged in Brahman, gets established in their original nature. Getting established in one's own nature is what we call Moksha.


    Now we'll see what actually is the meaning of Vaikuntha. KunthA means Gati- Gati of Jivas in various Yoni. [Gati: Course of Atma through different material bodies & Yoni: The material body in which soul appears] . Vikuntha means means stopping these KunthA of his devotees. Vishnu does this, who's the lord of MAYA. He removes their sins and all desires so that they can not move in various wombs. This Vaikuntha is a place where all souls are rested without the fear of anything. They don't take birth as there's no desire. Because desire only is the cause of various births. So Vaikuntha is a temporary place where devotees rest enjoying the bliss of Brahman until the total dissolution.


    Now we'll look into Upanishada to know what they say. What's the postition of Vaikuntha?


    From Nad-bindu upanishad -


    Om ! May my speech be based on (i.e. accord with) the mind; May my mind be based on speech. O Self-effulgent One, reveal Thyself to me. May you both (speech and mind) be the carriers of the Veda to me. May not all that I have heard depart from me. I shall join together (i.e. obliterate the difference of) day And night through this study. I shall utter what is verbally true; I shall utter what is mentally true. May that (Brahman) protect me; May That protect the speaker (i.e. the teacher), may That protect me; May that protect the speaker – may That protect the speaker.
    Om ! Let there be Peace in me ! Let there be Peace in my environment ! Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me !

    1. The syllable ‘A’ is considered to be its (the bird Om’s) right wing, ‘Upanishad’, its left; ‘M’, its tail; and the Ardha-Matra (half-metre) is said to be its head.
    2. The (Rajasic and Tamasic) qualities, its feet upwards (to the loins); Sattva, its (main) body; Dharma is considered to be its right eye, and Adharma, its left.
    3. The Bhur-Loka is situated in its feet; the Bhuvar-Loka, in its knees; the Suvar-Loka, in its loins; and the Mahar-Loka, in its navel.
    4. In its heart is situate the Janoloka; Tapoloka in its throat and the Satya-Loka in the centre of the forehead between the eyebrows.
    5(a). Then the Matra (or Mantra) beyond the Sahasrara (thousand-rayed) is explained (viz.,) should be explained.
    5(b)-6(a). An adept in Yoga who bestrides the Hamsa (bird) thus (viz., contemplates on Om) is not affected by Karmic influences or by tens of Crores of sins.
    6(b)-7. The first Matra has Agni as its Devata (presiding deity); the second, Vayu as its Devata; the next Matra is resplendent like the sphere of the sun and the last, Ardha-Matra the wise know as belonging to Varuna (the presiding deity of water).
    8. Each of these Matras has indeed three Kalas (parts). This is called Omkara. Know it by means of the Dharanas, viz., concentration on each of the twelve Kalas (or the variations of the Matras produced by the difference of Svaras or intonation).
    9-11. The first Matra is called Ghoshini; the second, Vidyunmali (or Vidyunmatra); the third, Patangini; the fourth, Vayuvegini; the fifth, Namadheya; the sixth, Aindri; the seventh, Vaishnavi; the eighth, Sankari; the ninth, Mahati; the tenth, Dhriti (Dhruva); the eleventh, Nari (Mauni); and the twelfth, Brahmi.


    12. If a person happens to die in the first Matra (while contemplating on it), he is born again as a great emperor in Bharatavarsha. ( India )

    13. If in the second Matra, he becomes an illustrious Yaksha; if in the third Matra, a Vidyadhara; if in the fourth, a Gandharva (these three being the celestial hosts).

    14. If he happens to die in the fifth, viz., Ardha-Matra, he lives in the world of the moon, with the rank of a Deva greatly glorified there.

    15. If in the sixth, he merges, into Indra; if in the seventh, he reaches the seat of Vishnu (Vaikuntha); if in the eighth, Rudra, the Lord of all creatures.

    16. If in the ninth, in Mahar-Loka; if in the tenth, in Janoloka (Dhruva-Loka -- ?); if in the eleventh, Tapoloka, and if in the twelfth, he attains the state of Brahma.

    17. That which is beyond these(Lokas), (viz.,) Para-Brahman which is beyond (the above Matras), the pure, the all-pervading, beyond Kalas, the ever resplendent and the source of all Jyotis (light) should be known.

    Note : From above verses, It is very clear that Para Brahman is described beyond all lokas including supreme lokas, vishnu loka and shiva loka. However here Vaikuntha is mentioned as lower than Brahmaloka.

    Supreme Brahman is beyond Vaikuntha or Shiva Loka ! It is pure, infinite, source of all jyoti , without a second.

    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 04 July 2014 at 12:00 PM.

    Shuka says to Parikshita:


    " You yourself are That Brahman. You alone are that Supreme Absolute abode .. Seeing this cautiously you should fix your self in that undivided Atma " ( Bhagavata purana 12.5.11 )


    hinduism♥krishna™ ©

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté



    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Now we'll see what actually is the meaning of Vaikuntha. KunthA means Gati- Gati of Jivas in various Yoni.
    It would be helpful and useful to define your terms for the reader... this is has been a standing request ( for comprehension) that applies here on HDF.

    gati may mean the following
    :
    • motion in general (feminine gender)
      the course of the soul through numerous forms of life
      a particular high number
      state , condition , situation , proportion , mode of existence
      a position of a child at birth


    So, help us understand and appreciate your post(s) by offering the definitions as you apply them.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Gati means Motion, in this case, appeared motion of Atma from one body to the another body, which is experienced by Jiva due to Mind, Intellect and Prana, but the soul itself doesn't move. The moving is an illusionistic experience of omnipresent Atma.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté





    It would be helpful and useful to define your terms for the reader... this is has been a standing request ( for comprehension) that applies here on HDF.

    gati may mean the following
    :
    • motion in general (feminine gender)
      the course of the soul through numerous forms of life
      a particular high number
      state , condition , situation , proportion , mode of existence
      a position of a child at birth


    So, help us understand and appreciate your post(s) by offering the definitions as you apply them.

    iti śivaṁ

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Namaste
    It is true that the ultimate liberation lies in merging with the formless Parama Shiva/Narayana and Vaikuntha and Kailasa both dissolve into the ultimate reality at the end.
    The proof of that is the fall down of Jaya Vijaya from Vaikuntha after getting cursed by Sanaka and others
    The fall down of Radha after She was cursed by sudama and fall down of tulasi after She was cursed by Radha(Brahma vaivarta purana) Fall down of Lakshmi after She was cursed by Sarasvati
    The mere fact that curses,anger and ego still exist in Vaikuntha bear the testimony that it is not eternal. While this might hurt bhaktas and they give ridiculously convenient and childish answers that it is all Lords maya leela the truth goes the otherway round too and they forget that the names, forms dancing and singing are all Maya too and that the ultimate brahman with no qualities no emotions but pure happiness is the ultimate destination
    Last edited by ganeshamylord; 06 July 2014 at 01:51 AM.

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    Namaste

    So what is your point? Where would you rather be until parlay? In mRtyulok, some arbitrary place, or in VaikunTha with Narayan? Devotees are saying they would rather be with ShyAmsundar in VaikunTha than some arbitrary place discussing Bramhan.

    Also, after pralay (cosmic dissolution of all material worlds), and the following sarga/ sRshTi (creation), the devotees continue where they left off, i.e. they are back in VaikunTha with Narayan, whereas those in arbitrary places go to arbitrary places. DevaRshi NArad is proof of this. He gives witness to remembering his 7 lives before and after the major pralay. He currently plays the role of Lord BramhA's mind-born son and highest bhAgvat teaching bhAgvat dharma (principles of devotion to BhagavAn - the Supreme Lord), to 14 loka (material worlds).

    Now if you are identifying with Bramhan, then you are that sUkshma tattva (subtle principle) and nothing matters. But for all practical purposes, although VaikunTha becomes irrelevant to you, it is not to others.

    Also, if devotees are in VaikunTha until and after pralay, then that makes VaikunTha eternal for them.

    he kRshNA karuNAsindho dIna bandho, jagat pate
    gopesha gopikA-kAnta rAdhA kAnta namostute

    tapta kAnchana gaurangi rAdhe vRndAvaneshwari
    vRshabhAnu sute devi praNamAmi hari priye

    vAncha kalpa taro bhyAs cha kRpA sindhubhya eva cha
    patitAnAm pAvanebhyo vaishNavebhyo namo namah

    kRshNAya vAsudevAya haraye paramAtmane
    praNata klesha nAshAya govindAya namo namah

    _/\_

    ----
    disclaimer: I am not a Gaudiya VaishNav but my vaishNavebhyo namo namah was sincere from the heart.
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 04 July 2014 at 06:36 PM. Reason: added explanation for pralay - sanskRt term

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    "VaikunTha means stopping the kunTha of His devotees. This VaikunTha is a place where all souls rest without fear of anything."

    I think that is a very nice explanation of the state of VaikunTha. Thanks.

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    Namaste

    So what is your point? Where would you rather be until parlay? In mRtyulok, some arbitrary place, or in VaikunTha with Narayan? Devotees are saying they would rather be with ShyAmsundar in VaikunTha than some arbitrary place discussing Bramhan.
    Namaste, AmeyAtma.

    Actually the main title here is that Brahman which is described by Shruti-Smruti is beyond Vaikuntha. As long as there's Maya, there's lord of Maya, Vaikuntha. Because he's present in form only when there's Maya but when there's total dissolution takes place or Moksha is attained, there's no Ishwara as there's no Maya at all. Because this Brahman appears in form through Maya. Bhagavan himself has said this in Bhagavad Gita. Ishwara can be existed only when there's a counterpart Maya, otherwise never.

    Yes, we'd like to live in Vaikuntha rather than discussing here what's Brahman Note that actually Vaikuntha Moksha and Kaivalya-Sayujya Moksha are same in regard with the goal. In Vaikuntha, Sayujyata is attained with Gunas and While others attain this Brahman without Guna. They become completely one with it.

    Also, after pralay (cosmic dissolution of all material worlds), and the following sarga/ sRshTi (creation), the devotees continue where they left off, i.e. they are back in VaikunTha with Narayan, whereas those in arbitrary places go to arbitrary places. DevaRshi NArad is proof of this. He gives witness to remembering his 7 lives before and after the major pralay. He currently plays the role of Lord BramhA's mind-born son and highest bhAgvat teaching bhAgvat dharma (principles of devotion to BhagavAn - the Supreme Lord), to 14 loka (material worlds).
    Interestingly Narada is not a resident of Vaikuntha. If desire is vanished completely, it's not possible to return. Even the same lord Brahma during the time of creation returns. Because duality of I and Brahman is still there. Bhagavata mentions this. Who has no such duality, he's already connected with Brahman even though he's still in material body. But after the death and after the dissolution in case of devotees, they never come back. They aren't born after creation. Because their Jivabhava is completely vanished and desire is null. This desire itself creates material and subtle bodies.

    Now if you are identifying with Bramhan, then you are that sUkshma tattva (subtle principle) and nothing matters. But for all practical purposes, although VaikunTha becomes irrelevant to you, it is not to others.
    How it'll be irrelevant to me, if moksha is attained through it. However who's known his self as Vishnu, for him what's Vaikuntha or what's not vaikuntha doesn't matter. He's vishnu himself. Who's attained sayujyata has already attained Vaikuntha. He's all pervading. He's in vaikuntha. He's in Dhruva loka. He's all.

    I'd like to attain supreme abode of Vishnu, which is none other than the self. <See my Signature> , not a Vaikuntha. I want to know my self completely, which is Vishnu. I don't have a desire to become vishnu like god in Vaikuntha. I don't want vishnu's body. I want to get his soul. Because his soul and my soul, no such distinction. Here in this Martya Loka, Bhagavan himself accepts Maya and considers himself different from the self. He himself enters into prakriti as a Jiva and gets deluded. He himself is the Jiva. He himself is guna. He himself is maya. There's nothing separate existing than him. Who prorects and what is protected is he alone.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 04 July 2014 at 10:18 PM.

    Shuka says to Parikshita:


    " You yourself are That Brahman. You alone are that Supreme Absolute abode .. Seeing this cautiously you should fix your self in that undivided Atma " ( Bhagavata purana 12.5.11 )


    hinduism♥krishna™ ©

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Namaste HLK,

    Your posts are full of wisdom of VedAnta. However, I think that it doesn't make Vaikuntha less important, at least for those who want it. As pointed out by Ameyatama, they want to be in that bhaava (state of mind) and that is supreme for them.

    I agree that the Ultimate reality is beyond all lokas as there is no MAyA and therefore, no loka, no Ishvara and none other in TuriyA, the blissful eternal non-dual state of Brahman.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Pranams,

    I hope you can become more than Vishnu Hindu Krishna, Good luck with that.

    But how can we accept a translation of any shastra by someone who comes up with things like this

    Namaste,

    Many iskconites consider bhagavan govinda as supreme than bramh . They have stated bramh as partial blissful in their gita's interpretation. However, i think, chaitanya mahaprabhu did not teach these kind of things.
    He only gave 8 shlokas which are considered authentic . However, The chaitanya charitamrita is not considered as a genuine scripture as it was written by some latter devotees.

    Besides, chaitanya was an advaitian vaishnawa. His guru was an advaitian and i don't think iskcon has a root in chaitanya mahaprabhu's teachings.

    Thank you. Best luck for your spiritual progress.

    Jai shri govind narayan.
    I must admit it, I never thought that personal interpretation to fit in ones view was actual vedic.

    I have learned something new

    Pranams

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    Re: Vaikuntha is not eternal [Explained]

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    However who's known his self as Vishnu, for him what's Vaikuntha or what's not vaikuntha doesn't matter. He's vishnu himself. Who's attained sayujyata has already attained Vaikuntha. He's all pervading. He's in vaikuntha. He's in Dhruva loka. He's all.
    Well said, HLK.

    Interestingly Narada is not a resident of Vaikuntha.
    Not physically, but he is a bhAgvat, not BhagvAn, that's my point. Spiritually he lives with BhagvAn, perpetually. When I say VaikunTha I am not speaking of a spatial location.

    If desire is vanished completely, it's not possible to return.
    True. However, the bhAgvats like DevaRshi (NArad) do have one pure desire - to serve the Will of BhagvAn. Somebody has to be NArad Otherwise Shri Hari will miss him.

    What will happen to/of DevaRshi after the mahA-pralay? It all depends on the will, sankalpa, of BhagavAn. Not of DevaRshi. Which means DevaRshi is just a puppet, and Bramhan-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn is the only driver of the show.

    Narayana NArAyaNa ~

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