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Thread: How can Vishnu appear to be deluded

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    How can Vishnu appear to be deluded

    Pranam, Hari Narayana.


    This thread may be a guide for Beginners of Advaita or who're interested to know it or those who find advaita as illogical. Here are some things which you should know before starting of my actual subject. Advaita believes 1] The Brahman is attained through the constant meditating on the self 2] Applying logic of 'Neti Neti' ie after negating all aspects of JivaBhava, what remains is the Absolute truth which is famously known in Shastras as Brahma/Brahman/Param Atma. 2] Jiva is Brahman 3] Moksha is Nitya-Siddha ie it is neither attained nor ignored.
    Now you may wonder if Jiva is really Brahman or Ishwara, how it is being suffered. How is it possible that Brahman become deluded? The one and only one answer for this question is that accepting Maya by Brahman is its Sport only. The Atma has no bondage or Moksha. The bondage appears when ignorance appears similarly Moksha appears when knowledge appears. But one should know that these Knowledge and Ignorance of Jiva are brought out from unending maya of Vishnu. In reality, Jiva has no bondage or Moksha. Seeing the distinction between two is itself Maya of Bhagavan. From Logics too, we get the same truth. Atma is known as all-pervading and this Atma itself is appearing in minds of all Jivas. Such self-illuminating Atma can not even touch the Maya because it is can not be said perfectly when this Atma got deluded by maya. Never ! So if you say this Atma is in bondage without beginning considering Maya as unending, then my view on this is that if this happens then jiva could not get Moksha ever. Why? Because if Atma is in bondage without beginning, then surely the present state of Atma [as a Jiva] becomes Sat as this state is beginning less. The siddhanta is that whatever has not beginning can not an end ever. So Jivabhava would not vanish at any time and for such Jiva, Moksha is not possible at any time. Thus from such logics too, the only truth is that Atma must not have Bondage or Moksha. No, we haven't seen this subject through logics only. Now we'll enter into the advaitic wisdom of MahaPurana, Bhagavata Purana, which is the highest in all Upanishadas and Puranas.
    श्रीमद्*भागवत महापुराण
    तृतीय स्कंधः - सप्तमोऽध्यायः


    विदुर उवाच ।
    ब्रह्मन् कथं भगवतः चिन्मात्रस्याविकारिणः ।
    लीलया चापि युज्येरन् निर्गुणस्य गुणाः क्रियाः ॥ २ ॥

    Brahman, how Bhagavan who is consciousness and without VikArA ( alteration ) can have relation with Guna ( quality ) & KriyA ( act ) even though through sport?

    अस्राक्षीत् भगवान् विश्वं गुणमय्याऽऽत्ममायया ।
    तया संस्थापयत्येतद् भूयः प्रत्यपिधास्यति ॥ ४ ॥

    Ishwara establishes this world by his own Maya , through it he nourishes and in the end he destroys it.

    देशतः कालतो योऽसौ अवस्थातः स्वतोऽन्यतः ।
    अविलुप्तावबोधात्मा स युज्येताजया कथम् ॥ ५ ॥

    How Awakened Atma Whose knowledge, by place and Time and conditions, can not be damaged by any other reason or by without reason, could come into Maya ?

    भगवानेक एवैष सर्वक्षेत्रेष्ववस्थितः ।
    अमुष्य दुर्भगत्वं वा क्लेशो वा कर्मभिः कुतः ॥ ६ ॥

    One Ishwara alone is present in all kshetra- all Bodies [as a jiva] , for such a one, how can be there unluckiness or suffering from Karma/Acts ?

    एतस्मिन्मे मनो विद्वन् खिद्यतेऽज्ञानसङ्कटे ।
    तन्नः पराणुद विभो कश्मलं मानसं महत् ॥ ७ ॥

    Intelligent one, My mind is depressed in this crisis of Ignorance. With mercy please remove my this ignorance.

    श्रीशुक उवाच -
    स इत्थं चोदितः क्षत्त्रा तत्त्वजिज्ञासुना मुनिः ।
    प्रत्याह भगवच्चित्तः स्मयन्निव गतस्मयः ॥ ८ ॥

    Shuka : O King, Maitreya, being thus agitated by the inquisitive Vidura, at first seemed astonished, but then he replied to him without hesitation by remembering god.

    मैत्रेय उवाच -
    सेयं भगवतो माया यन्नयेन विरुध्यते ।
    ईश्वरस्य विमुक्तस्य कार्पण्यमुत बन्धनम् ॥ ९ ॥

    Atma who is Ishwara and ever free acquired insufficiency and Bondage, this logically becomes contradictory. However This [Logic] itself is Maya of Bhagavan. [ This is the answer for Dvaitian Vaishnawas who holds such logic. Here such logic is refuted by calling it maya ]

    यदर्थेन विनामुष्य पुंस आत्मविपर्ययः ।
    प्रतीयत उपद्रष्टुः स्वशिरश्छेदनादिकः ॥ १० ॥

    Even as through ignorance the person in a dream really believes that his head is cut off even though it is not happened in reality, in the same way though Jiva has not any bondage, because of Ignorance bondage seems to be appeared.

    यथा जले चन्द्रमसः कम्पादिस्तत्कृतो गुणः ।
    दृश्यतेऽसन्नपि द्रष्टुः आत्मनोऽनात्मनो गुणः ॥ ११ ॥

    Just as ripples in the water ,without appearing, appears on the image of moon but not on the moon itself which is in the sky, in the same way, seer of Jiva associated with Anatma [false self] acquires [Bondage], not the actual self of Jiva.

    स वै निवृत्तिधर्मेण वासुदेवानुकम्पया ।
    भगवद्*भक्तियोगेन तिरोधत्ते शनैरिह ॥ १२ ॥

    But this Anatma-Buddhi gets diminished gradually by the mercy ofVasudeva through the process of devotional service to the Lord in the mode of detachment.


    So if I answer in just one sentense " How can vishnu become deluded " then this is it : : : All-pervading, ever free atma can not be appeared as deluded, this logic itself is Maya, which is thought by dull witted persons. Though Atma appears to be deluded, he doesn't get deluded in real sense. So there's absolute zero possibility of Jiva's bondage and moksha. So the logic that all-pervading ever free Brahman can not be appeared as deluded is totally wrong.

    Thus Ends...



    Last edited by satay; 07 January 2015 at 10:48 AM.

    Shuka says to Parikshita:


    " You yourself are That Brahman. You alone are that Supreme Absolute abode .. Seeing this cautiously you should fix your self in that undivided Atma " ( Bhagavata purana 12.5.11 )


    hinduism♥krishna™ ©

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Now you may wonder if Jiva is really Brahman or Ishwara, how it is being suffered.

    suffered ?


    iti śiva
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam

    I am at pains to understand, how is Lord Vishnu become deluded as the title states!! Is it a question or statement of fact?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namaste
    Let's say I am a beginner of this great knowledge... a novice to say the least.

    Then I read the following:

    विदुर उवाच ।
    ब्रह्मन् कथं भगवतः चिन्मात्रस्याविकारिणः ।
    लीलया चापि युज्येरन् निर्गुणस्य गुणाः क्रियाः ॥ २ ॥

    : Brahman, Bhagavan who is consciousness and without VikArA can have relation with Guna & KriyA even though through sport?
    My first question as the novice is what is VikArA, what is Guna & KriyA ?
    How can I even begin to comprehend this paragraph without knowing the definitions of these words ? Where am I being guided or helped? Where am I being recognized as a beginner ?

    There seems to be a substantial dis-connect as of late between various new authors on HDF and what they think the reader may know. How can we the novice understand these writings if the author does not help us along ?

    I am asking All New authors and those that have had a lapse in memory to define the words that are not used every day by the common reader

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 06 July 2014 at 06:42 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    I'm a novice with scriptures.My question is in which Vedapatshala you have learnt the scriptures and under which Guru?And how many years u've spent in learning and understanding the scriptures in that school?

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam

    I am at pains to understand, how is Lord Vishnu become deluded as the title states!! Is it a question or statement of fact?

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Pranam,

    I wonder whether you've read the above verses or not? It's both, question & appeared fact. Vidura is asking the question " How Brahman can be deluded " and Shuka Deva is explaining how Brahman which is not subject to delusion, gets (appears) deluded by Prakruti. I think he's explaining in very simple language by giving couple of examples in Verse 9 | 10 | 11 So no need to feel pain. Just read the verses keeping the mind in oneness mode.

    The subject is very subtle. Even shuka deva too got astonished at first, because he knew that explaining this subject in just words is very difficult. The rare is the person who can comprehend this through Vidnyana.

    Shruti ( Br. Up. |6|8|1| ) - " Thus this Purusha (Brahman) , when embraced by the intelligent self [ Anatma ] "

    Shruti ( Ch. Up. |6|8|1| ) - " He becomes united with the truth"

    Thus, duluding himself by his own Maya of duality, Hari subjects himself to the influence of attributes.

    Bhagavan says in Gita " Know me only as a Kshetradnya [ Jiva ] ( B.G. |13|2| )

    "Knowledge is veiled by Ignorance ( |5|15| )

    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 08 July 2014 at 01:41 AM.

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    [I][FONT=Georgia]
    I wonder whether you've read the above verses or not? It's both, question & appeared fact.
    Not really, subsequently I have, if you had said Brahman aka Vishnu getting deluded, my simple mind just would not have bothered. It was the title that caught my attention, I think we all know and accept that Brahman is never deluded, rest is just the play of Vak and comprehension.



    ---- Just read the verses keeping the mind in oneness mode.
    Not a chance when there is so much variety around!!

    Thus, duluding himself by his own Maya of duality, Hari subjects himself to the influence of attributes.
    Obviously this is your conclusion.

    question arises where from this Maya appear! Influence of attribute?

    Lord Krishna speaks of his attribute in Bhagvat Gita never once he mentions he gets deluded by it.

    No sooner a question get answered another pops up.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad
    I think we all know and accept that Brahman is never deluded, rest is just the play of Vak and comprehension.
    Who said Brahman gets deluded? Didn't you read? Vidura asks Maitreya that if Vishnu himself is situated as Jiva by covering himself by Maya, then how such omnipresent and ever free Atma can have bondage? Maitreya told him the truth that this Jiva doesn't have Bondage of Maya though it appears as deluded. Even as when the image of sun fallen on the water moves or get disturbed, the sun itself doesn't undergo any disturbances, in the same way though Jiva ( false self ) appears as deluded by Maya it's real self which is Brahman always remains aloof having no any change. Such is the glory of Brahman. Obviously this is very subtle subject and as it is comprehensive at the consciousness level dualistic people can't understand it. They don't know duality itself is not in existence and so whatever think through it is Asat.


    Not a chance when there is so much variety around!!
    Sat means which has Adhishtan in all times while Asat has no adhishtan at any time. If you believe in existence of asat-duality, then you must accept your present condition as your true nature. Because for you sat has become asat as you think that sat has no adhistan over asat or for you asat has become sat as you think that asat-duality has adhishthan ie it's in existence. So if you accept duality you accept impossibility of Jiva's Moksha.


    Obviously this is your conclusion.
    This is a conclusion of Bhagavata Purana. Jiva has no bondage or Moksha is a part of Brahmavidya or Vidnyana.

    question arises where from this Maya appear! Influence of attribute?
    Maya is ultimately Brahman but Brahman is not Maya. Without Brahman there's nothing separate existing. Maya isn't an exception for this. If something is assumed as existing differently from Brahman, then it becomes as sat like Brahman as it would have permanent adhishthan separate from brahman ie it'll satisfy the condition of sat which is having permanent existence.

    Lord Krishna talked on this matter and supported that maya is none other than him. Maya is Brahman. This Maya appears as a superimposition on Brahman.

    “ahametatprasankhyanam….. bhavo vidyate kwachit “ (BP 11.16.38)

    Krishna said - I am the knowledge of these principles and the counting of them. I am the Jeeva, I am the God, I am the wielder of Gunas and I am the Gunas themselves; and without me, who am the Atman of all, there is nothing separate existing.

    “avam vimrushya….makhilasanshayadhim “ (BP 11.13.23)

    Meaning: You should think like this and arrive at the conclusion about the nature of the self that the three states of mind born out of three Gunas are falsely superimposed on Me as the Jeeva, by my delusive Power (Maya) and should cut at the root of egoism, the basis of all doubts, with the sword of Wisdom fortified by reasoning, the precepts of saints and the texts of Shruti (Upanishads), and join in the Unity with Me seated in your heart.

    Lord Krishna speaks of his attribute in Bhagvat Gita never once he mentions he gets deluded by it.
    You ignored that Krishna identified himself as Kshetradnya and Jiva. BG 10.20 " Aham Atma sarvabhutashayastitah ": "I'm Atma which is dwelling in all Jiva"

    Kshetradnya or Jiva are none other than attributes imposed on Brahman.

    No sooner a question get answered another pops up.
    We should not challenge scriptural verses in any way.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 08 July 2014 at 01:41 AM.

    Shuka says to Parikshita:


    " You yourself are That Brahman. You alone are that Supreme Absolute abode .. Seeing this cautiously you should fix your self in that undivided Atma " ( Bhagavata purana 12.5.11 )


    hinduism♥krishna™ ©

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post


    We should not challenge scriptural verses in any way.


    Pranam

    I see no fruitful discussion to be had here, please do not put words in my mouth, I have not challenged the scripture verses.

    I find you no different from Vaishnava who equates lord Shiva an ordinary Jiva which is how you come across re Lord Vishnu, you may deny this but that is how you come across to me.

    It is suffice for me to know when lord Krishna says ;
    There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

    There is no denying we are part of the supreme Brahman as much Shree Krishna says in chapter 15 of Gita but the part does not make the whole just as the drop does not make an ocean or a ray the Sun, as such if I am not god now I can never be him/her in the future.


    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Namaste

    "How can Vishnu be deluded?"

    Been there ; Done that ; moved on. Game over.

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