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Thread: How can Vishnu appear to be deluded

  1. #11
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Quote Originally Posted by lalit1000 View Post
    I'm a novice with scriptures.My question is in which Vedapatshala you have learnt the scriptures and under which Guru?And how many years u've spent in learning and understanding the scriptures in that school?
    Pranam Lalita,

    So who thinks Jiva is Brahman, he has not attained Veda school. He didn't learn the scriptures. He didn't have a guru. He didn't learn the scriptures for many years.

    I believe that who's Master of all shastras and yet he didn't realise that 'I'm Brahman' All his efforts are just useless and equivalent to not learning anything. Like Bhagavan Krishna says in Uttara Gita,

    Those that constantly chant the four Vedas and read other religious works and yet fail to realize “I am that Brahman”, they are like the spoons that are used for every cooking operation, but yet remain without a single taste of the foods they prepare. (37)

    As an hungry person imply wastes his energy in vain when he strikes the air with blows for food, so also a reader of the Vedas and others Sastras simply wastes his time and energy, if, not withstanding his study, he fails to realize that “I am Brahman”. (47)


    This Brahman is not attainable through Veda or Puranas ie just by learing it brahman is not attained, but by contemplating on nature of self , brahman is attained. Those who think the self different from Brahman are just wasting their time in reading shastras.

    Edited: This self is not attained by any external means. The self is attained through self only.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 08 July 2014 at 02:40 AM.

  2. #12

    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    So who thinks Jiva is Brahman, he has not attained Veda school. He didn't learn the scriptures. He didn't have a guru. He didn't learn the scriptures for many years.

    I believe that who's Master of all shastras and yet he didn't realise that 'I'm Brahman' All his efforts are just useless and equivalent to not learning anything. Like Bhagavan Krishna says in Uttara Gita,

    Those that constantly chant the four Vedas and read other religious works and yet fail to realize “I am that Brahman”, they are like the spoons that are used for every cooking operation, but yet remain without a single taste of the foods they prepare. (37)

    As an hungry person imply wastes his energy in vain when he strikes the air with blows for food, so also a reader of the Vedas and others Sastras simply wastes his time and energy, if, not withstanding his study, he fails to realize that “I am Brahman”. (47)


    This Brahman is not attainable through Veda or Puranas ie just by learing it brahman is not attained, but by contemplating on nature of self , brahman is attained. Those who think the self different from Brahman are just wasting their time in reading shastras.

    Edited: This self is not attained by any external means. The self is attained through self only.
    Hello,
    Infact i was in search of a Vedic Scholar with whom i can interact in a day to day basis and i thought u are one,thats why asked.From your post what i can understand is that u hv never gone to a Veda pathsala.
    And from your quotes from scriptures, which i have a very limited understanding of,what i can understand is "Vedas can't describe GOd","He is beyond Vedas and scriptures" etc and understanbly so.Even in Shiva Stotra mantra Raja which i read, the some thing similar is there:
    VEDAA NA SHAKTAA YAM STOTUM KIMAHAM STOUMI TAM PRABHUM/.
    That much i can understand ,but if someone was to misinterpret those words of God by saying that studies of Vedas is not important then tht wud be a big blunder.
    For the preservation of Vedas, it is necessary that some people devote their entire time for Vedic study. That is how the Vedas were preserved in the past and were handed down to succeeding generations by oral transmission. A community will cease to exist the moment it loses sight of its purpose in society. The purpose of the Brahmin community is to learn, preserve and hand over to posterity, the Vedas and the Vedangas

    Self can be attained by self --this must be true since some self attained rishis should have said this,but right now i,m in search of Vedic priest/scholar for a slightly different reason, not exactly for attaining self.I cant jump to the topmost floor from the ground floor like that,i have to duely climb all the steps of all the floors..
    Btw,from ur posts and several threads, it appears to me that you are very much interested in the study of scriptures and interpret and share ur understandings on them although u know tht realisation of self is not possible through it.
    And again,from my limited understanding and from the words of several Gurus and Acharyas,it seems that Vedas and scriptures cant be learnt on your own.You have to be part of the Guru Sishya parampara in a veda pathsala.
    THanks for your response.
    Regards.
    Last edited by lalit1000; 08 July 2014 at 12:38 AM.

  3. #13
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by lalit1000 View Post
    Hello,
    what i can understand is that u hv never gone to a Veda pathsala.
    There's no need to go to Veda School if someone has a Vaishnawa Guru who's the very image of God and Knowledge itself.

    And from your quotes from scriptures, which i have a very limited understanding of,what i can understand is "Vedas can't describe GOd","He is beyond Vedas and scriptures" etc and understanbly so.
    I think You've misunderstood me. Yes, Brahman which is not a subject of speech is, no doubt, beyond Veda. It's not like that Vedas can't describe Brahman. The truth, Vedas DON'T describe Brahman which is not in the scope of words. Vedas merges attributes of dualities imposed on Brahman in Brahman itself and in the end accepting Brahman alone, she quits and become quite in the aloneness of Brahaman with happiness. Actually Veda doesn't tell us what actually is Brahman, but intelligently it uses a reverse tactic. She uses Maya in the form of Knowledge itself to remove Maya. It is like removing one thorn by another thorn. This is the greatness and depth of Veda. What you think Veda is describing Brahamn is actually a act of removing ignorance of Jiva, which has veiled the knowledge of Jiva. Bhagavan too says in Gita " Knowledge is veiled by ignorance" Thus Veda doesn't describe Brahman. Veda itself agrees that Brahman is beyond the words. So describing Brahman in just words is Just IMPOSSIBLE.

    but if someone was to misinterpret those words of God by saying that studies of Vedas is not important then that would be a big blunder.
    First read my post carefully. I didn't say study of veda isn't necessary. I said study of Veda is futile when one doesn't understand that the self is Brahamn. This is what Bhagavan Krishna says in Uttara Gita.


    Btw,from ur posts and several threads, it appears to me that you are very much interested in the study of scriptures and interpret and share ur understandings on them although u know that realisation of self is not possible through it.
    Upanishada itself says that this brahman is not attained through Scriptures. Adi Shankara too said like this. Who is studying Veda may or may not attain Brahman, but who's known himself as that Brahman, who's controlled his mind and he's satisfied only in the self, will surely attain Brahamn.
    Bhagavan says in Gita " Vedas are filled with three Gunas. So establish yourself beyond that in Nirguna , in the self " For Moksha seeking people, most part of Veda like Karma and Upasana Khanda is useless. Intellegent ones seeks only Upanishada from Veda even as how hamsa separates out Milk from water
    And again,from my limited understanding and from the words of several Gurus and Acharyas,it seems that Vedas and scriptures cant be learnt on your own.You have to be part of the Guru Sishya parampara in a veda pathsala.
    Absolutely correct ! Veda should be learned from a Brahmadnyani. BTW, I've many Gurus, Pujari of ours Vishnu temple, Sant Dnyaneshwar, Sant Ramdas, Sant Eknath, Adi shankaracharya and so on.
    By the way, there's one deficiency in Upanishada. Upanishada can't trace the greatness of Namajapa of Bhagavan Vishnu. Upanishada are amazed by seeing how by just repeating names of Bhagavan devotee attains supreme Brahman

    Shuka says to Parikshita:


    " You yourself are That Brahman. You alone are that Supreme Absolute abode .. Seeing this cautiously you should fix your self in that undivided Atma " ( Bhagavata purana 12.5.11 )


    hinduism♥krishna™ ©

  4. #14
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    It is suffice for me to know when lord Krishna says; There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)
    PranAm,

    I think the verse is the initial teaching of Bhagavan Krishna when he became Guru of Arjuna. When Guru accepts his disciple at first he doesn't give the direct knowledge to him. He has to come down to his ignorant level and then he rises him at the higher aspect of knowledge.

    Krishna is saying none other than the thing that this Atma is eternal. Everyone's Atma is eternal, mine and yours too. So give up the false notion that you're killing someone.

    At the end, Krishna instructs him the most perfect knowledge of Brahman and says that seeker of Moksha finally enters into supreme. He becomes Brahman. He sees all beings in the self and the self in all beings. This is called non-dual unity between Atma and Brahman.


    There is no denying we are part of the supreme Brahman as much Shree Krishna says in chapter 15 of Gita
    There's absolute denying. Because Jiva is said to be part but that too is imagined. Nowhere it is said that Atma is a part. Krishna in the 2nd chapter already mentioned that this Atma is all-pervading. " नित्यः सर्वगतः " BG 2.24 .

    Jiva is said to be part of Brahman. Because through maya Brahman appears as if he's been divided in all Jivas as parts and you should know that there's a difference between Atma and Jiva.

    Jiva is called as Ansha because it appears as surrounded by subtle body - Mind, intellect and Prana , which are smaller than the smallest. These Mind, intellect and prana are Sukshma tattva - atomic in size and appears as a part of complete Brahman. That's the reason why Jiva is imagined as Ansha but in reality he is of the nature of Barhman. Ansha doesn't mean that jiva is really a part of Barhman/Krishna. You forget that you are assuming part of the infinite, which is not ever possible. Part of the infinite is never possible. Moreover your part concept also contradicts with ekamevadvitiya Brahman or absolute brahman. So having no doubts, here jiva is certainly imagined as amsha according to the nature of Mind, intellect and Prana. " mam eva ansho " - Here eva (I'm only) is stressed implying that krishna is in the form of Jiva. This interpretation is greatly supported by Bahgavad Gita 10.20 " Aham atma sarvabhutashaysthitah - I'm Atma of all Jivas "


    but the part does not make the whole just as the drop does not make an ocean or a ray the Sun, as such if I am not god now I can never be him/her in the future.
    This is complete ignorance. Thinking self as different from Brahman is itself the cause of bondage of Jiva. After annihilation of such ignorance Jiva becomes Brahman again. He was already Brahman but due to ignorance he appeared himself different from Brahman though he's Brahamn.

    Drop of ocean was never out of the sea , is the true knowledge.
    विभेदजनकेऽज्ञाने नाशमात्यन्तिकं गते
    आत्मनो ब्रम्हणो भेदमसन्तं क: करिष्यति ।। विष्णु पुराण 6.7.96 ।।


    "After the complete annihilation of dualistic ignorance, who'll think the difference between Atma and Brahman, which is completely false...."
    Thank You..
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 10 July 2014 at 05:06 AM.

    Shuka says to Parikshita:


    " You yourself are That Brahman. You alone are that Supreme Absolute abode .. Seeing this cautiously you should fix your self in that undivided Atma " ( Bhagavata purana 12.5.11 )


    hinduism♥krishna™ ©

  5. #15

    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    There's no need to go to Veda School if someone has a Vaishnawa Guru who's the very image of God and Knowledge itself.
    Hello,
    According to scriptures,Guru is Saksat Parabrahma,So any SatGuru, Vaisnabh or otherwise, is Parabrahma Himself,to call him an image of God is insulting.Now coming to your logic,it implies that ,any one who has got mantra Diksha under a Guru doesn't have the need to go Vedapathsala.I'm really amazed to even think of the consequences of this conclusion .
    My view point is, i'll always depend on a Guru or Acharya or a vedic scholar for documentaries and analysis of the scriptures.That is the way it should be.The opinion of a person(on satras ) ,who is not formally trained,will have very less value to me.Others may have a different view on this.
    Initially i mistakenly thought you are one Vedic scholar.That was the reason i posted in this thread.
    I sincerely thank you for all your efforts.
    Regards.

  6. #16
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    PranAm,

    I think the verse is the initial teaching of Bhagavan Krishna when he became Guru of Arjuna. When Guru accepts his disciple at first he doesn't give the direct knowledge to him. He has to come down to his ignorant level and then he rises him at the higher aspect of knowledge.
    You see when a child goes to kindergarten he learns the simplest of knowledge that would become foundation of life, which would remain with the young person all his life2+2=4 if the foundation was faulty he/she would remain in ignorance for ever. What Krishna teaches is infallible. With this I rest my case.
    I have nothing against advaita or dwvaita for that matter, only when, through intense endeavour and faith, becomes realised all this mysteries of life would unravel, until then keep at it as they say lage raho.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  7. #17
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post

    You see when a child goes to kindergarten he learns the simplest of knowledge that would become foundation of life
    Jai Shree Krishna

    PranAm,

    Nowhere Krishna taught duality of existence ie after Moksha Jiva retains individual consciousness differing with Brahman. I think it's your lack of study on Krishna's various discouses including Uddhva Gita. In Bhagavad Gita as well, oneness alone is praised everywhere yet you're stuck to that verse. Latter chapters reveal that there's only one Atma present in all Jivas and Krishna identified himself with it.

    Multiplicity of Atma is the greatest delusion and as long as Jiva doesn't discard such illusion of duality he remains in Bondage of Maya forever. This is supported by Krishna's final teachings. Krishna completely refutes multiplicity of Atma.

    Krishna says : : :

    " There is multiplicity of atma so long as there is inequality among the three Gunas and while this multiplicity of atma doesn't get vanished from the mind , the Jeeva remains in bondage forever . " [ bhagavata purana 11.10.32 ]

    "As long as there is dependency ,there is fear of god.Those who get entangled in ‘I’ ,those who considers multiplicity and dependency of soul and those who don’t follow detachment , they get only sorrow . " [ BP 11.12.32]

    Duality is completely discarded by Krishna:

    "What is good and what is bad in that duality which itself is not Real? What is spoken or thought or imagined by the mind is equally false."


    However there's no need of any big research to find out what's the aim of all Vedanta including this Bhagavad Gita. Bhagavata Purana itself has declared the aim of all Vedanta.

    “ sarvavedanta saram yadbramhatmaikatva lakshanam
    Vastwadwitiyam tannishtham kaivalaikaprayojanam “ ( 12.13.12)


    [ You already know that the essence of all upanishadas is the the non-dual unity of Atma and Brahman . This alone is the given subject of Bhagavat Purana . The aim of this ( bhagavat purana ) is “kaivalya moksha “ ( unity of atma-bramhan) only . ]

    I think this is more than enough to know what's the aim of Vedanta including Bhagavad Gita as well. Though the lamp is infront of someone , how can he see unless he doesn't open his eyes?
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 10 July 2014 at 05:19 AM.

  8. #18
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Pranam


    Please try to be faithful to the context, check again what my response was to what statement you had made!

    My lack of study does not imply Krishna would teach Arjun with false knowledge in the beginning.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  9. #19
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    Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam


    Please try to be faithful to the context, check again what my response was to what statement you had made!

    My lack of study does not imply Krishna would teach Arjun with false knowledge in the beginning.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    PranAm, I think we should be faithful to all scriptures while interpretating Gita. That becomes a standard interpretation.

    I think you mentioned & interpretated BG 2.24 but without considering other verses of Bhagavad Gita. As I see you mentioned that verse to assert that jiva has a separate existence and it remains even after moksha. That means you believe there's multiplicity of Atma. However on what basis you've interpretate that verse, proving multiplicity of atma ie individual existence of each Jiva even though the same lord Krishna refutes the wrong notion of multiplicity of Atma in his last teachings ?


    You should note that firstly imparting lower aspect of knowledge and then refuting that itself in the end by the highest aspect of knowledge is the standard practice of teaching knowledge about Brahman. Scriptures at first assumes duality, think about it deeply and in the end merges all the dualities in the non dual Brahman. Because ignorant people like us are highly influenced by dualities and if scriptures teach the discourse of direct knowledge directly , then the disciples couldn't comprehend it.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 10 July 2014 at 11:06 AM.

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    Smile Re: How can Vishnu become deluded

    मैत्रेय उवाच -
    सेयं भगवतो माया यन्नयेन विरुध्यते ।
    ईश्वरस्य विमुक्तस्य कार्पण्यमुत बन्धनम् ॥ ९ ॥

    Atma who is Ishwara and ever free acquired insufficiency and Bondage, this logically becomes contradictory. However This [Logic] itself is Maya of Bhagavan. [ This is the answer for Dvaitian Vaishnawas who holds such logic. Here such logic is refuted by calling it maya ]
    Although the material, illusory energy is distinct from the spiritual energy, it is one of the many energies of the Lord, and thus the material modes of nature (the mode of goodness, etc.) are surely qualities of the Lord. The energy and the energetic God are not different, and although such energy is one with the Lord, He is never overpowered by it. Although the living entities are also parts and parcels of the Lord, they are overcome by the material energy. The inconceivable yogam aiśvaram of the Lord, as mentioned in Bhagavad-gītā (9.5), is misunderstood by the froggish philosophers. In order to support a theory that Nārāyaṇa (the Lord Himself) becomes a daridra-nārāyaṇa, a poor man, they propose that the material energy overcomes the Supreme Lord. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī and Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, however, offer a very nice example in explanation. They say that although the sun is all light, the clouds, darkness and snowfall are all part and parcel of the sun. Without the sun there is no possibility of the sky’s being overcast with clouds or darkness, nor can there be snowfall on the earth. Although life is sustained by the sun, life is also disturbed by darkness and snowfall produced by the sun. But it is also a fact that the sun itself is never overcome by darkness, clouds or snowfall; the sun is far, far away from such disturbances. Only those who have a poor fund of knowledge say that the sun is covered by a cloud or by darkness. Similarly, the Supreme Brahman, or the Parabrahman, the Personality of Godhead, is always unaffected by the influence of the material energy, although it is one of His energies (parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate).

    BG 13.3: Do thou also know Me as the Knower of the Field in all fields(Paramatma), O Arjuna! Knowledge of
    both the Field and the Knower of the Field is considered by Me to be the knowledge.

    यदर्थेन विनामुष्य पुंस आत्मविपर्ययः ।
    प्रतीयत उपद्रष्टुः स्वशिरश्छेदनादिकः ॥ १० ॥

    Even as through ignorance the person in a dream really believes that his head is cut off even though it is not happened in reality, in the same way though Jiva has not any bondage, because of Ignorance bondage seems to be appeared.
    A teacher in school once threatened his pupil that he would cut off the pupil’s head and hang it on the wall so that the child could see how his head had been cut off. The child became frightened and stopped his mischief. Similarly, the miseries of the pure soul and the disruption of his self-identification are managed by the external energy of the Lord, which controls those mischievous living entities who want to go against the will of the Lord. Actually there is no bondage or misery for the living entity, nor does he ever lose his pure knowledge.
    The man whose head has been cut off also sees that his head has been cut off. If a person’s head is severed he loses his power to see. Therefore if a man sees that his head has been cut off, it means that he thinks like that in hallucination.
    Last edited by _Ash; 04 April 2015 at 06:23 AM. Reason: incomplete

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