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Thread: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

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    Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Namaste friends at HDF,

    What is the fine line between genuine Bakhti (Devotion) and belief which can cause stagnance, ignorance and rigidity?

    Thanks.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    PranAm,

    As per my view, when Bhakti is done through Ignorance it becomes just a belief and when it is done with knowledge it becomes a genuine Bhakti.
    In Sanskrit, Bhakti is an opposite word of Vibhakti which means separateness. Thus Bhakti means oneness. There's always oneness of devotee and God. The peak of such devotion is that state where devotee doesn't remain as devotee and god doesn't remain as god. It's the state like merging of water in water. Shastra instructs us that our self should not be considered different from God. This is what I call Genuine Bhakti which is prescribed in scriptures.

    Others than such Bhakti have many different types and are considered under the mode of Maya.

    Hari NArAyana
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 08 July 2014 at 12:48 PM.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by IcyCosmic View Post
    Namaste friends at HDF,

    What is the fine line between genuine Bakhti (Devotion) and belief which can cause stagnance, ignorance and rigidity?

    Thanks.
    Vannakkam Icy: I'm not sure if I really understand your question, but I'm thinking it's about signs of genuine bhakti. If so, then it's about 'feeling it'. When you see tears in the eyes of a priest, or in a devotee during, before, or after ritual, you know they're getting it. Similarly, if tears well up unbidden in one's own eyes, it's a sign.
    So it's about feeling.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam Icy: I'm not sure if I really understand your question, but I'm thinking it's about signs of genuine bhakti. If so, then it's about 'feeling it'. When you see tears in the eyes of a priest, or in a devotee during, before, or after ritual, you know they're getting it. Similarly, if tears well up unbidden in one's own eyes, it's a sign.
    So it's about feeling.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Namaste EM,
    I am talking about the difference between true devotion that is supposedly pure and sattvic in nature and blind belief that causes rigidity. The best way I can explain it is ''faith'' from a western context (which isalso present in the east). Where you can be prescribed by religious figures to discard common sense, compassion or respect for not only external spiritual processes but also people of certain qualities; purely because you believe something with such iron might. This is the foolish, ignorant, tamsic, rigid form of ''devotion''.

    Whether when judging yourself or someone else, this is certainly a fine line and it may at some points become difficult to tread particularly if you are new to spirituality or influenced heavily by externals to avoid becoming the latter and start resonating with more superficial elements of religion causing you to become rigid in nature. It is not different from a atheist who is so rigid in his thought and is unwilling to hear anything from a ''theist'', or a scientist who thinks all ''creationists'' are morons, or even a economist who has tunnel vision when listening to other theories purely because they don't align with his views.

    I think it is important to ascertain the difference in qualities between a more sattvic and tamasic faith, so that we can correct ourselves and uplift others in a polite manner. Namaste.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam Icy: I'm not sure if I really understand your question, but I'm thinking it's about signs of genuine bhakti. If so, then it's about 'feeling it'. When you see tears in the eyes of a priest, or in a devotee during, before, or after ritual, you know they're getting it. Similarly, if tears well up unbidden in one's own eyes, it's a sign.
    So it's about feeling.

    Aum Namasivaya

    Namaste EasternMind ji

    How can you say tears are signs of devotion? I have seen a lot of people cry when they hug "acharya" Amritanandamayi too so how can tears which are just expressions of our inner ego represent devotion? A lot of emotionally needy individuals would cry if they recourse to "acharyas" who cater to their beliefs. A lot of brainwashed individuals would cry too. I had my psychiatry posting during my undergrad days and i used to see a lot of patients who were brainwashed into believing a certain point cling on to it as if it were the words of God.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by IcyCosmic View Post
    Namaste friends at HDF,

    What is the fine line between genuine Bakhti (Devotion) and belief which can cause stagnance, ignorance and rigidity?

    Thanks.

    Namaste Icycosmic

    I think awareness of oneness with God is the real devotion.
    And if one is a real devotee of God its substantial evidence comes from the universe itself. The universe reciprocates by making the path of salvation easier for that person.
    Since we see a lot of acharyas and gurus these days i think it is the adaptability of their teachings both in context of spirituality and materialism that acts as a bar.
    If you see, there are certain qualifications for a person. These days however standardization of sadhus has become so cheap that anyone who has a lot of followers becomes an acharya.

    Il give you my experience.
    I chanted the hare krishna mantra for 3 years as i was indoctrinated into the fact that it gives happiness. It didnot work for me and i had many results contrary to the standard definition of happiness.I fought with my best friends,broke up with my girlfriend etc etc I went and asked my ex guru as to why it didnt work for me. He told me i shouldnot expect miracles and God does His things His own way.
    While i was not convinced of his answer i did not ask God for a ferrari. I just wanted increased awareness of the surroundings,increased consciousness, ability to see reality. If any mantra cannot provide me awareness in this material life then how can it provide awareness after death? After all i worshipped Krishna because He was supernatural and lifted the govardhana etc etc. If Krishna didnt do any supernatural deeds would i accept Him to be God? Arjuna called Krishna as "param brahma" only after Krishna showed His universal form if He didnot do that would Arjuna get convinced of the fact that He was God??I felt letdown and i started to hate myself because after 3 years of giving my heart and soul if nothing paranormal happens in my life why did i waste my time???Then on the verge of atheism i finally resorted to chanting the mantra Kleem which i found in one of the Dr.Pillai videos of youtube based on the testimonials given. It did work and out of the blue people started talking to me,especially girls,.And thinking that could be a strict coincidence i stopped the mantra for a day and no one talked to me on that day.
    While i was not worried about the power of attraction that kleem bestows i was convinced of one thing that there is something supernatural. Since i lost faith in the guru system and i didnt want to believe something on facevalue just because it is said in a "Scripture". That is tantamount to me accepting that the earth is flat just because a scripture calls it so,.

    But wisdom was what i wanted and I was told Ganesha is the lord of wisdom. So i then went on with the Ganesha mantra Gam and from then on there is no turnback for me. I slowly progressed one on one and finally i reached a strict discipline of chanting a few hours of His mantra without thinking of the results and with deep conviction of His protection. I dont have hatred or ill feelings anymore and my enemies started to become my friends and life became easier after Ganesha entered my life. And more importantly my self confidence increased where i dont feel afraid of saying No to a person if i have to. And i do a regular set of His mantras everyday and think of Him all the time not because some book tells me to or some sect tells me to but because of my consciousness telling me to do so,.
    I also used to have a bit of guilt leaving Krishna because of deep seated ignorance into which i was indoctrinated into and by worshipping Ganesha that disappeared and i started to read the advaita doctrines and that there is no difference between any form of Brahman and worship of any Para Brahman leads of salvation.

    So i think the difference between devotion and a belief cannot be quantified by scriptures or books but by personal assessment.
    If you follow a path and that path of devotion just leads you to singing dancing and you remain stuck with poverty,ignorance,inability to question the guru in fear of going to hell, etc,,,low IQ and tendency to get brainwashed then that is a belief system. If the path of devotion increases your awareness and gives you the benefits of devotion like destruction of ego, ablity to see through the intentions of others, increased intuition,increased IQ etc you are on the right path. And while people might call this materialistic i specifically stressed on the factors basing on the material world because we can quantify them. A person will be called a state ranker in an exam based on his scores. But if he calls that scoring system "materialistic" then there will be no scope to improve and he might end up calling himself a state ranker when actually he got a big zero in his exams.
    Also what works for me might not work for you. So personal experience and analysis is the best and dont believe something just because someone tells you so unless you experience it yourself.
    Last edited by ganeshamylord; 08 July 2014 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Vannakkam Icy: Personally, I think rigidity is a quality of the intellect/ego. Bhakti of the true variety will soften that, because the bhaktar's will goes to God's will, and soon the ego/individual seems quite irrelevant. But as to how to develop this is another story. For oneself, we can undertake pilgrimage, do some penance, maybe some fasting. But I really think it's one of those things one has to experience for themselves. You can't give a person a bhakti experience, it has to happen within themselves. You CAN give them a book, which may further feed the intellect, depending on the book's nature.

    @ganeshamylord ... I was referring to tears of bhakti, not emotional tears, stress tears, or even tears of joy. To determine the nature of tears would be difficult, but I can give you an example.

    At the kumbhabhishekaham of the Ganesha temple I attend, right at the very end of a 5 day elaborate routine, near the final point, as is Tamil custom, there was a pause while an individual sang a Tamil hymn. I happened to glance at the main chanting priest, who had chanted practically non-stop for 4 or 5 hours maybe more, each day. I could see the tears in his eyes. Then when the puja was finally over, and his job was done, before heading for the airport to return to his home temple, he went around to each shrine, totally on his own, when most people were eating outside or elsewhere, and prostrated full out. It was his individual act of devotion.

    But you're welcome to your opinion.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 08 July 2014 at 12:54 PM.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Pranam

    Quote Originally Posted by IcyCosmic View Post
    Namaste friends at HDF,

    What is the fine line between genuine Bakhti (Devotion) and belief which can cause stagnance, ignorance and rigidity?

    Thanks.
    There sure is a fine line between devotion Bhakti and a show of it, only a bhakta an individual would know for him self, we may be able to fool the others but we can never fool the Anteryami (the one within who is the witness).

    Having said all this few example comes to mind, Vidur ji devotion feeding the skin of bananas or Sabri feeding barries (bor) to Ram.

    Lord Krishna describes devotion in Gita chapter 12 of Bhakti Yoga, and not being very rigid himself he says if you can't do this do the other.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam

    we may be able to fool the others but we can never fool the Anteryami (the one within who is the witness).
    Vannakkam GP ... If we do sadhana alone in the home shrine, go to temple when nobody else is there, then just who are we trying to fool?

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Fine Line : Devotion/Belief

    Pranam EM

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam GP ... If we do sadhana alone in the home shrine, go to temple when nobody else is there, then just who are we trying to fool?

    Aum Namasivaya

    Well those who worship in solitude only they know how sincere they are, most of time we mechanically go through the motion, duty bound!

    And then there are a lot of them leading a double life, come Sunday put on a dhoti, tilak the lot armed with bead bag chanting, talking to friends and eying the public going past. They get passed as devotees!!

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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