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Thread: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

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    Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    Hello, sorry for my ignorance.
    Is the concept of moksha in Advaita Vedanta a perpetual, everlasting and irreversible state?
    I mean, if Brahman becomes deluded by Maya, shouldn't we even transcend Brahman?
    Please tell me where I'm missing the point in my reasoning.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    Hello, sorry for my ignorance.
    Is the concept of moksha in Advaita Vedanta a perpetual, everlasting and irreversible state?
    I mean, if Brahman becomes deluded by Maya, shouldn't we even transcend Brahman?
    Please tell me where I'm missing the point in my reasoning.

    Thanks.
    PranAm,

    In Advaita, Moksha is everlasting eternal. It's the completeness of the reality. No one have really seens that. No one has really known that and no one has really described that. That state of true nature of self which isn't thought by mind but by what one perceives Brahman is that Moksha which is desired by all Yogi including Bhakti Yogi. Moksha is Nitya-Siddha ie it's never attained or Ignored. In fact Jiva has no bondage or Moksha but this is the highest aspect of Advaita. To comprehend this you'll have to do some progress in basic Advaita knowledge.

    Brahman doesn't get deluded, this is the absolute truth. I think I've explained in my thread 'How can Vishnu become deluded' that whether Jiva who's Brahman gets deluded or not. Jiva isn't our real self. Our atma-self often mentioned in scriptures as the true self is Brahman itself.

    If you think that if Jiva is suffering then how can he be Brahman? Just as moon in the sky remains aloof though the image of it in the pot gets disturbed, in the same way Brahman itself appears as veiled by Maya and by covering with it, it appears deluded as if he's really deluded. It's its sport. The amazing thing is that without creating any thing he enters into all as Jiva. It itself acts as a Ishwara and Jiva as well. It creates itself, protects itself and destroys itself in the end. Here in this world, who creates, who protects and what's protected is that Brahman alone. This Brahman can be seen only through a sharp and subtle mind.

    Thank You. Narayana
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 10 July 2014 at 01:05 PM.
    Hari On!

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    Hi, hinduism♥krishna. Thanks for your answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Moksha is Nitya-Siddha ie it's never attained or Ignored. In fact Jiva has no bondage or Moksha but this is the highest aspect of Advaita. To comprehend this you'll have to do some progress in basic Advaita knowledge.
    This sounds a lot like the Mahayana concept of "Nirvana is Samsara and Samsara is Nirvana"

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Brahman doesn't get deluded, this is the absolute truth. I think I've explained in my thread 'How can Vishnu become deluded' that whether Jiva who's Brahman gets deluded or not. Jiva isn't our real self. Our atma-self often mentioned in scriptures as the true self is Brahman itself.

    If you think that if Jiva is suffering then how can he be Brahman? Just as moon in the sky remains aloof though the image of it in the pot gets disturbed, in the same way Brahman itself appears as veiled by Maya and by covering with it, it appears deluded as if he's really deluded. It's its sport. The amazing thing is that without creating any thing he enters into all as Jiva. It itself acts as a Ishwara and Jiva as well. It creates itself, protects itself and destroys itself in the end. Here in this world, who creates, who protects and what's protected is that Brahman alone. This Brahman can be seen only through a sharp and subtle mind.
    So if I understand well, I'm Brahman, and even if I attain moksha I'll eventually experience again a lot of ignorance and suffering in samsara in the next world cycle. Am I right?

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    So if I understand well, I'm Brahman, and even if I attain moksha I'll eventually experience again a lot of ignorance and suffering in samsara in the next world cycle. Am I right?
    To suggest that " I'll eventually experience again a lot of ignorance " one has missed the essential teaching. In what you say, it suggests remaining individual , with the identity of ale84. OR said conversely being brahman yet with the identity of ale84.


    This is the issue for many... they wish to experience brahman as an object of experience e.g. there is me and there is brahman - oh, I become this brahman that I am inspecting. This is not the case.

    If you are experiencing or tangled up in 'me' and 'mine' and 'I am this or that' then one is within the limited. Brahman is beyond all that- not even speakable uccāra-rahitam vastu¹.

    ... to Be ( code for Brahman) , you must be no-body - śrī nisarga-datta maharāj


    iti śiva

    1. uccāra-rahitam vastu - Reality devoid ( indescribable ) of utterance
    Last edited by yajvan; 10 July 2014 at 05:11 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    This sounds a lot like the Mahayana concept of "Nirvana is Samsara and Samsara is Nirvana"
    PranAm,

    It may be in its true essence. However Samsara which appears on Brahman is not Moksha and this is unchallenged !

    So if I understand well, I'm Brahman, and even if I attain moksha I'll eventually experience again a lot of ignorance and suffering in samsara in the next world cycle. Am I right?
    Atma is beyond Ignorance and Knowledge. You can not assume or say at some time Atma got deluded or Atma got Moksha at some time. Because if we assume Brahman got deluded at some time, then there will occur alteration in Brahman's unchanging nature, which can not be accepted and If you assume Brahman got deluded since no begining, then Jiva's appeared means present situation state which is deluding state would be permanent and as it is permanent it'll become sat (Truth) just as Brahman. Because Sat (Truth) has a rule at every time and this will imply that Jiva's deluding state is the original nature of Jiva and so Jiva's Moksha is never possible as the thing which has no bigining doesn't have any end ever. Thus the assumption of 'Brahman got deluded at some time is refuted' . Now if we assume Moksha is attained at some time , then by applying clear logics it'll result in a false thing. Because the thing which is attained or Ignored is always a false thing. Because of the same thing I've said before that the thing which has no begining doesn't have an end.

    Thus both assumptions are refuted here. Now here some people will posit that as both Moksha and Bondage are delusion and as Brahman has no any attribute, the reality should be nothingness. However this too is not valid. Because
    if the reality is void then the world's existence wouldn't have been perceived. But This world is appearing as something no matter it is real or unreal however it appears. It is not possible to appear something if the reality is nothingness, So there must be something which has adhishtan (RULE) over this world and I think it is none other than Brahman.

    Thus everything Moksha, Bondage of Jiva and Nothingness is getting refuted by logics and by Shastra Pramana as well. The thing which can not be negated but that itself is the thing which is remained after negating EVERYTHING , is Brahman alone and the self of Jiva whose image is appearing in the minds of all, is none other than that Brahman and the important thing is that shastra clearly supports this fact of impossibility of Jiva's Moksha and Bondage.



    Even if you assume the suffering of Jiva by looking around, Jiva's Suffering is not accepted. Because when the king dreams a dream of being Beggar, he actually doesn't become beggar as his body is already on the bed and when he wakes up he clearly distinguishes himself from the self of dream. This proves the real self was actually aloof from the false self of Jiva when he appears as deluded.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 11 July 2014 at 11:11 AM.

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    Hello

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Atma is beyond Ignorance and Knowledge. You can not assume or say at some time Atma got deluded or Atma got Moksha at some time.


    Then, why ignorance is experienced? What is it that experiences ignorance? How did it originate?

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    Because if we assume Brahman got deluded at some time, then there will occur alteration in Brahman's unchanging nature, which can not be accepted and If you assume Brahman got deluded since no begining, then Jiva's appeared means present situation state which is deluding state would be permanent and as it is permanent it'll become sat (Truth) just as Brahman. Because Sat (Truth) has a rule at every time and this will imply that Jiva's deluding state is the original nature of Jiva and so Jiva's Moksha is never possible as the thing which has no bigining doesn't have any end ever. Thus the assumption of 'Brahman got deluded at some time is refuted'. Now if we assume Moksha is attained at some time, then by applying clear logics it'll result in a false thing. Because the thing which is attained or Ignored is always a false thing. Because of the same thing I've said before that the thing which has no begining doesn't have an end.


    So Brahman cannot change and is never deluded.
    Then why did samsara happen at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    So there must be something which has adhishtan (RULE) over this world and I think it is none other than Brahman.
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post


    Thus everything Moksha, Bondage of Jiva and Nothingness is getting refuted by logics and by Shastra Pramana as well. The thing which can not be negated but that itself is the thing which is remained after negating EVERYTHING ,
    is Brahman alone and the self of Jiva whose image is appearing in the minds of all, is none other than that Brahman and the important thing is that shastra clearly supports this fact of impossibility of Jiva's Moksha and Bondage.

    If Brahman alone exists, why should we negate everything else?

    How can there be delusion if everithing is Brahman, and Brahman is never deluded?

    Sorry for asking too much questions, but I'm trying to understand Advaita philosophy in depth.

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    If Brahman alone exists, why should we negate everything else?
    This is a very good question... stay with this one till you are satisfied with the answer.

    You see, there is not just one ~flavor~ of advaita . And with no disrespect to anyone or any of the answers you have been given - many offer (IMHO) canned answers.
    You see there is nothing wrong with the world, or with you ( yikes!).

    For the Supreme to throttle down into this level of existence some things take place, yet it is still the Supreme. Think of a huge power station that produces billions of watts of power, yet in your house you are able to turn on a light with no issues. All those billions (megawatts) of power is throttled down to finally become the light in a 60watt light bulb in your lamp. Is the energy-power any different ? Nope - just throttled down. Like that, all the things we see and not see, is the Supreme that is throttled into a form for this human experience to occur.

    How is it done ?
    It is the infinite measured out into the finite. This sounds pretty simple to say but takes some unfolding. This is where you will hear of the 24 to 25 tattva-s discussed in śāṁkhya¹ - it is the throttling down of the Supreme from formless into form. Now within kaśmir śaivism 36 tattva-s are reviewed for this throttling down of the Supreme into one's worldly and spiritual experience.

    This in essence is this notion of māyā - many argue this is 'illusion' yet within kaśmir śaivism the notion is, if all this is indeed brahman (śiva as it is considered in this school) , how can you call it illusion ? Māyā is seen as the Supreme's power used to throttle down. Even in advaita vedānta the rank-and-file (that means no harm) has mis-read this notion of māyā. This then stimulates arguments for a millennium and I wish not to go there.

    Now there are many-a-posts on this subject within HDF so I will not recreate the information here. take a look around by the search feature offered on this site.


    iti śiva


    1. śāṁkhya (Sometimes sāṅkhya) - means relating to numbers; in this case the 24 ( some argue 25) tattva-s. It is considered one of the six schools of classical Indian thought.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    Hello, Yajvan

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    For the Supreme to throttle down into this level of existence some things take place, yet it is still the Supreme. Think of a huge power station that produces billions of watts of power, yet in your house you are able to turn on a light with no issues. All those billions (megawatts) of power is throttled down to finally become the light in a 60watt light bulb in your lamp. Is the energy-power any different ? Nope - just throttled down. Like that, all the things we see and not see, is the Supreme that is throttled into a form for this human experience to occur.
    This is a nice analogy, the kind of answer I was looking for. It's all Brahman's energy expresing itself at different potencies according to the different "layers" of reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    How is it done ?
    It is the infinite measured out into the finite. This sounds pretty simple to say but takes some unfolding.


    So when the Infinite expresses Itself into finite forms, then ignorance and suffering takes place. Is it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    This is where you will hear of the 24 to 25 tattva-s discussed in śāṁkhya¹ - it is the throttling down of the Supreme from formless into form. Now within kaśmir śaivism 36 tattva-s are reviewed for this throttling down of the Supreme into one's worldly and spiritual experience.


    Could you please explain me the 24-25 tattvas of samkhya or at least post a nice link where I can read about it? I'm really interested.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Moksha in Advaita Vedanta

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by ale84 View Post
    [/font]
    So when the Infinite expresses Itself into finite forms, then ignorance and suffering takes place. Is it right?

    Could you please explain me the 24-25 tattvas of samkhya or at least post a nice link where I can read about it? I'm really interested.
    Thanks.
    Let me see if I can assist without creating confusion. I say this because there are some fine lines we need to recognize and for some the lines need to be big and bold for their recognition;for others , the lines can be thin and vague.

    What is this ignorance any way ? If it goes away when one realizes one's own nature ( Self¹ ) what is this ? Did it really ever have a basis for its existence? If something comes and goes (say the wise) it is fleeting and not sustainable, it is not real. So this notion of ignorance is like that. It is we who are ~ignoring~ our real nature.

    Well why is that ? Because we are an experience machine. We look to experience all things, even our own Self which is the ~final experiencer~ of everything. But we wish to hold it in our hands like
    an apple and look at it. Well this is not how it goes - to see Self one has to be Self. This is where we get all convoluted on this matter of experiencing it. It is perfectly pure, stainless (niṣkalaṅka¹).

    So how then could it possibly be experienced ? There are many views on this matter. Just as a person walks into a totally dark room with no light what so ever and comments - I cannot see nothing ! That is an experience of nothing ! A vaild experience. So , we will leave this notion for just a bit.

    but yajvan, why this ignorance?
    One answer is the following. It is found in abhinanagupta-ji's work called bodhapañcadśikā or the 15 verses of wisdom.
    He informs us of the following:
    tasaivaiṣā parā devī
    svarūpāmarṣantosukā |
    pūrṅatvaṁ sarvabhāveṣu
    yasya nālpaṁ na cādhikam ||

    I will rely on svāmī lakṣman-jū for the proper translation of this śloka. This then says, The collective state of the universe is His supreme energy (or śakti) which He created to recognize His own nature.
    This śakti who is the embodiment of the collective state of the universe loves possessing the state of God Consciousness. She is in the state of ignornance remaining perfectly complete (pūrṅatvaṁ)
    and full in each and every object.

    We still experience this ignorance; we must be clear on what it is and is not and to this a deeper dive is always good for the reader to pursue. It takes diligence and one-pointedness to get to a comfort level of really 'getting it'. More can be written but too many words can overwhelm the reader.


    Now this suffering
    The wise inform us that if you are in a human body that pain is enevitable but suffering is optional. Pain is the mechanisim of the body to inform 'you' that something is not right. Suffering is much different and it a mental construct of grief, fear and the like that erodes one's well being. This suffering is mental. If one knows how to manage mind and ego this suffering does not find a home to live.

    Much suffering is the result of fear... fear of loss, fear of pain, fear of ______( fill in the blank). The answer is found in the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad¹ ; it says, dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati . Any time there is a sense of 2, fear arises i.e. dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati - Fear is born of duality.
    This wisdom is so profound it ( if compleletly aborbed and lived) could solve the world's issues. Any time there is the sense that there is more then 'me', that another can harm 'me' then fear arises. Yet if one sees nothing but their-Selves everywhere who then can do them harm ? You will never do yourself harm so when this wholeness¹ is one's daily experience there is nothing that can harm you. If this wholeness is one's own nature then where can fear or suffering arise ?

    So, why all the grief on this good earth ? It is due to our sustained condition via the instriment of impressions over and over again.
    This brings up the science of yoga and the notion of vāsanā-s¹. You can read about this within patañjali’s yogadarśana ( some call yoga sūtra-s).

    So, I think svāmī lakṣman-jū has it right when he says: It is not what you don't know that gives you troubles, it is what you do know that's just not right.
    This alludes to seeing clearly. I will leave this to the wisdom of śrī nisarga-datta maharāj :
    A man should always be in revolt against himself, for the ego, like a crooked mirror narrows down and distorts. It is the worst of all tyrants, it dominates you absolutely.

    Our ability to get beyond this ego ( a tool of limits) is the work at hand.

    regarding the 24 to 25 tattva-s
    My recommendation is to look this up under the śāṁkhya (sometimes sāṅkhya) philosophy. It will outline the tattva-s for you. You then can begin there with questions that we can resolve as needed.
    Also - I would also look to the 36 tattva-s found in kaśmir śaivism . You then can compare and contrast them.
    At the end of the day this ride may be longer then expected - but it allows you to become a student of this profound knowledge and the benefits are substantial (as I see it).




    praṇām

    words
    • Self - svātman one's own Self, true nature; It is considered niṣkalaṅka - stainless; without blemish
    • bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad - puruṣavidha-brāhmaṇa, 2nd śloka.
      • dvitiyad or dvitīya द्वितीय - 2nd or two , couple,
      • bhayam or bhaya भय - fear , alarm dread apprehension
        ( rooted in bhī to fear for , be anxious about )
      • vai an emphasis and affirmation , generally placed after a word and laying stress on it (it is usually translatable by 'indeed' , 'truly' , 'certainly' )
      • bhavati or bhava भव arising or produced from , being in
    • wholeness = pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa = fullness or a full vessel i.e. overflowing , supreme
    • vāsanā - the impression of anything remaining unconsciously in the mind , the present consciousness of past perceptions
    Last edited by yajvan; 14 July 2014 at 02:56 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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