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Thread: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

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    The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Hari Aum

    There are some Vaishnavas that refer to Sri Shiva as a 'demigod'. Is not the prefix 'demi' synonymous with 'semi' which means 'not full' or 'not complete'? Below however are some quotes from the Srimad Bhagavatam which seem to make things clear. I welcome all comments on this.

    Hari Aum


    SB 4.6.42:
    brahmovāca
    jāne tvām īśaṁ viśvasya
     jagato yoni-bījayoḥ
    śakteḥ śivasya ca paraṁ
     yat tad brahma nirantaram


    Word for word:
    brahmā uvāca — Lord Brahmā said; jāne — I know; tvām — you (Lord Śiva); īśam — the controller; viśvasya — of the entire material manifestation; jagataḥ — of the cosmic manifestation; yoni-bījayoḥ — of both the mother and father; śakteḥ — of potency; śivasya — of Śiva; ca — and; param — the Supreme; yat — which; tat — that; brahma — without change; nirantaram — with no material qualities.

    Translation:
    Lord Brahmā said: My dear Lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

    Purport:
    Although Lord Brahmā had received very respectful obeisances from Lord Śiva, he knew that Lord Śiva was in a more exalted position than himself. Lord Śiva’s position is described in Brahma-saṁhitā: there is no difference between Lord Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva in their original positions, but still Lord Śiva is different from Lord Viṣṇu. The example is given that the milk in yogurt is not different from the original milk from which it was made.

    SB 4.6.43: tvam eva bhagavann etac
     chiva-śaktyoḥ svarūpayoḥ
    viśvaṁ sṛjasi pāsy atsi
     krīḍann ūrṇa-paṭo yathā

    Word for word:
    tvam — you; eva — certainly; bhagavan — O my lord; etat — this; śiva-śaktyoḥ — being situated in your auspicious energy; svarūpayoḥ — by your personal expansion; viśvam — this universe; sṛjasi — create; pāsi — maintain; atsi — annihilate; krīḍan — working; ūrṇa-paṭaḥ — spider’s web; yathā — just like.

    Translation:
    My dear lord, you create this cosmic manifestation, maintain it, and annihilate it by expansion of your personality, exactly as a spider creates, maintains and winds up its web.

    ...

    SB 4.7.50 śrī-bhagavān uvāca
    ahaṁ brahmā ca śarvaś ca
     jagataḥ kāraṇaṁ param
    ātmeśvara upadraṣṭā
     svayan-dṛg aviśeṣaṇaḥ

    Word for word:
    śrī-bhagavān — Lord Viṣṇu; uvāca — said; aham — I; brahmā — Brahmā; ca — and; śarvaḥ — Lord Śiva; ca — and; jagataḥ — of the material manifestation; kāraṇam — cause; param — supreme; ātma-īśvaraḥ — the Supersoul; upadraṣṭā — the witness; svayam-dṛk — self-sufficient; aviśeṣaṇaḥ — there is no difference.

    Translation:
    Lord Viṣṇu replied: Brahmā, Lord Śiva and I are the supreme cause of the material manifestation. I am the Supersoul, the self-sufficient witness. But impersonally there is no difference between Brahmā, Lord Śiva and Me.
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 17 July 2014 at 03:28 AM. Reason: added a quote
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    PranAm, GitAnanda.

    What you've said is absolutely correct, Shiva & Vishnu are one. As we see from Bhagavata & other purana, real vaishanawa don't differentiate between them.


    " Shaunak, Bhagavan Shiva is the lord of all Vidyas and he is the Paramatma situated in all beings . He is lord of all things. All Sages take refuge in him " ( Bhagavata Purana 12.10.8 )

    Shiva says : " Those who are real vaishnawas , they consider themselves non-different from me , bramha and vishnu . They don't consider any difference between their atma and three gods. They see everywhere the same AtmaTatwa in all jivas and in me ,vishnu and bramhaDeva. I worship such vaishnawa " ( Bhagavata Purana 12.10.22 ) ...... Total Advaita

    " Indeed, shiva's lila is difficult to understand for all. Though you are lord of all jivas , you worship jivas like me ." ( BP 12.10.28 )

    " You create this universe by your mind and enters into it . Though you are non-doer , you act like a doer . Though you are beyond maya , you appear within maya , " ( BP 12.10.31 )

    " Bhagavan shiva, though you are beyond maya , you are situated in every jiva as his atma/paramatma. Only you are the origin of knowledge , non-dual parabramhan. I worship you ." ( BP 12.10.32 )


    Besides you should check this thread..

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12038
    Hari On!

  3. #3

    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Dear Prabhu, the verse you have quoted is just one of many. There are other scriptures that show the supremacy of Vishnu and others that show the supremacy of Shiva. How do you reconcile these? Regards

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by axlyz View Post
    Dear Prabhu, the verse you have quoted is just one of many. There are other scriptures that show the supremacy of Vishnu and others that show the supremacy of Shiva. How do you reconcile these? Regards
    Prabhu,

    I always see everything through the glass of absolute reality, what's right or wrong about duality, which is itself not real, whatever one thinks or imagines through duality is not reality at all. These are the words of Bhagavan Krishna.

    After reading Uddhava Gita, you'll come to know that Atma of Vishnu, Shiva & all jivas is One and it's Nirguna Brahman. If Bhagavata Puruna says there's no difference between Atma & Ishwara, so how can be there difference two primary gods?

    We find some verses mentioning supremacy and some mentioning oneness. So these both things we shouldn't ignore. After comprehending this, one can easily know that when one god is called origin of others, it's not that God himself. It's the praise of Nirguna Brahman in the form of Ishwara,which is devoid of any attribute including form. Brahman alone is the origin of all gods & these primary gods like Shiva & Vishnu are manifestations in human by their Maya. So it's very expected from scriptures that they'll praise them as Nirguna Brahman which is the cause of all including gods as well. Besides, we get many references in scriptures that posit god as formless. If god is formless, then supremacy of god over another is just meaningless.

    So those fancy minds playing with supremacy game are not enough intelligent to interprete scriptures with consistency. If fact, for me it's childish.

    DhanyoSi.
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 16 July 2014 at 01:12 PM.

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    hNamaste

    Krishna is the 127th name of Lord Shiva. And Shiva sahasranama was told to Yuddhistira by Lord Krishna Himself.
    Vishnu is one of the 8 rudras according to Shiva Purana.
    Shiva is a nama of Vishnu in Vishnu Sahasranama

    So those small minded demons who differentiate between Shiva and Vishnu will reside in hell eternally and this is a standard statement in all scriptures.
    Even though you see Shiva predominant or Vishnu predominant scriptures all of them foretell the residence of hell for the demons who differentiate between Them. No where in puranas irrespective of Shaivic or Vaishnavic is there a mention to call either of Them demigods or to differentiate Them. Its just the mental self concocted versions of some devils who self title themselves as acharyas and try to spread irreligion by singing dancing and then exploiting the innocence/ignorance of hippies.
    A practical example is a famous cult propagating the supremacy of Krishna calling others demigods,propagating caste system,dancing singing and performing everything which is superficial,non spiritual and devoid of intelligence,, ending up with shameful criminal and civil suits including child abuse. It is indeed amusing where they can call drug addicts as sanyyasis and child molesters as acharyas but they have a problem with Lord Shiva being a God.

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Vannakkam: One does not have to worship both to recognise this. All you have to do is forgo criticizing the other. "You do your thing, and I'll do mine" does not demonstrate disrespect, but a healthy respect for the differences.

    Aum Namasivaya

  7. #7

    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    hNamaste

    Krishna is the 127th name of Lord Shiva. And Shiva sahasranama was told to Yuddhistira by Lord Krishna Himself.
    Vishnu is one of the 8 rudras according to Shiva Purana.
    Shiva is a nama of Vishnu in Vishnu Sahasranama

    So those small minded demons who differentiate between Shiva and Vishnu will reside in hell eternally and this is a standard statement in all scriptures.
    Even though you see Shiva predominant or Vishnu predominant scriptures all of them foretell the residence of hell for the demons who differentiate between Them. No where in puranas irrespective of Shaivic or Vaishnavic is there a mention to call either of Them demigods or to differentiate Them. Its just the mental self concocted versions of some devils who self title themselves as acharyas and try to spread irreligion by singing dancing and then exploiting the innocence/ignorance of hippies.
    A practical example is a famous cult propagating the supremacy of Krishna calling others demigods,propagating caste system,dancing singing and performing everything which is superficial,non spiritual and devoid of intelligence,, ending up with shameful criminal and civil suits including child abuse. It is indeed amusing where they can call drug addicts as sanyyasis and child molesters as acharyas but they have a problem with Lord Shiva being a God.
    Dear Prabhu, just because Krishna nama appears in the Shiva Sahasranama or Shiva appears in the Vishnu Sahasranama doesn't equal them. I cannot speak for the Shiva Sahasranama, because I have not read it, but here's what I do know for the Vishnu Sahsranama.

    Many names of Shiva such as "Rudro", "Shiva", "Eshwaro", "Mahadevo", etc appear in the Vishnu Sahasranama. That does not mean Shiva=Vishnu. It only means names such as Shiva (which means auspicious), Mahadevo (which means great god", etc are all names of Lord Vishnu. I would think this goes for the same for other Sahasranamas. Please read Vishnu Sahasranama Bhasya by Adi Shankara.

    You said, "So those small minded demons who differentiate between Shiva and Vishnu will reside in hell eternally and this is a standard statement in all scriptures.
    Even though you see Shiva predominant or Vishnu predominant scriptures all of them foretell the residence of hell for the demons who differentiate between Them. No where in puranas irrespective of Shaivic or Vaishnavic is there a mention to call either of Them demigods or to differentiate Them. Its just the mental self concocted versions of some devils who self title themselves as acharyas and try to spread irreligion by singing dancing and then exploiting the innocence/ignorance of hippies.
    A practical example is a famous cult propagating the supremacy of Krishna calling others demigods,propagating caste system,dancing singing and performing everything which is superficial,non spiritual and devoid of intelligence,, ending up with shameful criminal and civil suits including child abuse. It is indeed amusing where they can call drug addicts as sanyyasis and child molesters as acharyas but they have a problem with Lord Shiva being a God."

    Just to clarify, "demigod" does not mean the Greek translation of it, which means half-god, half-mortal. Calling others demigods just means that they are not God, and that has been shown in both Puranas and Vedas that every god is not God.

    If you call people who believe Vishnu is greater than Shiva "demons", they you are calling every advaitin from Adi Shankara to Madhusudhana Sarasvati a demon. Not to mention philosophical giants such as Ramanuja, Madhva, etc.

    Insulting ISKCON is not going to prove anything. The reason why many of the "gurus" fell down has nothing to do with Vaisnavism. Even many Advaitin have been accused of sex scandals, but no one blames Adi Shankara or Advaita Vedanta for their mistakes do they?

    Hari-naam sankirtan has been declared the best way to God realization by many Puranas. Even other Hindus like to chant mantras/names of their Ishta Devata, what is wrong with a Vaisnava chanting his Lord's name as well?

    If you want to believe in Shiva as God or Shiva=Vishnu, then be my guest. However, please do not say rash comments such as people who believe only Vishnu is God are demons etc. It is an insult to all major Vedantins who were all Vaisnavas.

    (Sorry if my post sounds mean or "sectarian", I was only trying to respond to ganeshmylord's post in a straight manner. )

    Regards

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Dear Prabhu,

    I don't know anyone who can harmonize all scriptures however I have chosen to believe the scriptures which give me peace of mind.

    When I read 4:6 and 4:7 of the Bhagavatam I learn that Sri Shiva pays respectful obeisances to Brahma the Creator and then he in turn pays respectful obeisances to Sri Shiva and then they both pay respectful obeisances to Sri Vishnu and then when Sri Vishnu incarnates who do you think he worships? Maybe they recognize something that humans don't.

    Hari Aum

    Quote Originally Posted by axlyz View Post
    Dear Prabhu, the verse you have quoted is just one of many. There are other scriptures that show the supremacy of Vishnu and others that show the supremacy of Shiva. How do you reconcile these? Regards
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    Quote Originally Posted by R Gitananda View Post
    Dear Prabhu,

    I don't know anyone who can harmonize all scriptures however I have chosen to believe the scriptures which give me peace of mind.

    When I read 4:6 and 4:7 of the Bhagavatam I learn that Sri Shiva pays respectful obeisances to Brahma the Creator and then he in turn pays respectful obeisances to Sri Shiva and then they both pay respectful obeisances to Sri Vishnu and then when Sri Vishnu incarnates who do you think he worships? Maybe they recognize something that humans don't.

    Hari Aum
    Dear Prabhu
    May be you havent read the churning of the ocean in Bhagavata where Lord Vishnu prays to Lord Shiva and seeks His protection against the poison

    And dear Prabhu you can also believe the bhagavata purana and believe that the earth is flat carried by 4 elephants Because irrespective of the fact that it is untruth as long as it gives you a peace of mind its totally fine right??
    And please read the following quote

    May be you think Bhagvata is greater than Mahabharata but itihasas are always considered above puranas And even if Vishnu or Shiva worship each other does the purana ask you to call them demigods?
    Mahabharata
    Rudra Bhakthya Thu Krishnena Jagat Vyaptham Mahathmana,
    Tham Prasadhya Thadha Devam Bhadaryam Kila Bharatha.
    Arthath Priya Harathwam Cha Sarva Lokeshu Vai Yadhaa,
    Prapthavaaneva Rajendra Suvarnaakshan Maheswaraath.
    Meaning:
    The Great Lord Krishna, due to His devotion to the Supreme Lord Rudra,has Spread All Over The Universe, Oh Bharatha, Lord Shiva pleased by His penance in Badri granted Him the boon due to which He has Attained The State Of Being More Dear,Than All The Worlds And All Aspects Of Knowledge.

    Yuge Yuge Thu Krushnena Thoshitho Vai Maheswara,
    Bhakthya Paramaya Chaiva Prathi Sruthwa Mahatmana.
    Meaning :
    Lord Maheshwara becomes pleased and happy Yugas After Yugas, By this Krishna who is THE SUPREME DEVOTEE Of Lord Shiva which is accepted by mahatmas.

    So Krishna worships Shiva in all yugas in all incarnations. Am sure you do know that the sudarshana chakra was granted to Him by Shiva. and it doesnt mean He is inferior. Just indicates that the Brahman worships His own self
    and so should we and this also says that Krishna gets His powers from Shiva

    Also do you know that sudarshana chakra was granted to Lord Vishnu by Lord Shiva?



    Last edited by ganeshamylord; 17 July 2014 at 08:55 AM.

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    Re: The Equality of Vishnu and Shiva

    It is grammatically wrong to merely call "two as one" unless there is some basis to it. For example, on the basis of human relationship, same person can be related and identified as brother, father, son and the referent is One!

    If the oneness is based on the "referent", it establishes this "all are one" idea and also corrects the grammatical scrutiny by establishing the basis of such claim. Do you think you have any proof for such fundamental basis on which they both are One and Same can be established?

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