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Thread: SAttvic Versus NirguN

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    SAttvic Versus NirguN

    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    kastUri tilakam lalATa paTale
    vaksha sthhale kaustibham
    nAsagre nava mauktikam karatale
    veNum kare kankaNam
    sarvAnge hari-chandanam sulalitam
    kanThe cha muktAvalI
    Gopa-stree pariveshThito vijayate
    GopALa chUDAmaNI
    ||

    Tilak-mark on the forehead (lalATa) made of musk (kastUrI) & saffron
    Kaustubha gem on His chest
    A beautiful pearl pierced as the nose ornament
    Flute in the palms, bangles on wrists,
    Hari-chandan (fragrant yellow sandalwood paste) all over The Beautiful One
    A flower garland around the neck
    [perpetually] surrounded by the cowherd maidens and ladies
    May that gem (chUDAmaNI) of GopAl KRshNa always be glorified as the epitome of success.


    yatraiva ganga Yamuna tirveNi
    Godavari sindhu saraswatI cha
    sarvAni tIrthAni vasanti tatre,
    yatrAchutodAra kathA prasangah:
    ||

    Wherever the story of Achyuta (unmovable infallible Lord KRshNa) is being told, all the sacred rivers Ganga Yamunaa Godavari Sindhu Saraswati, and all tIrthas (holy auspicious places of pilgrimage) reside

    --------------

    Namaste,

    What do you have to say about these bhAgvat verses below (SB 11.25.24 to 27) spoken by BhagvAn Shri KrshNa ? He is very explicit in saying 'manniketanam' --- living in the forest is in goodness (sAttvic)) but living in My Temple, or My place of dwelling - manniketanam - is transcendental .

    This can be take as => My dwelling place is the heart of devotees - so one who lives there / the 'act' of living there is transcendental - nirguN.

    The stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires. Seva for the sake of seva, and nothing else.


    SB 11.25.24
    kaivalyaṁ sāttvikaṁ jānaṁ
     rajo vaikalpikaṁ ca yat
    prākṛtaṁ tāmasaṁ jānaṁ
     man-niṣṭhaṁ nirguṇaṁ smṛtam



    Absolute knowledge is in the mode of goodness, knowledge based on duality is in the mode of passion, and materialistic knowledge is in the mode of ignorance. Knowledge based upon Me, however, is understood to be transcendental.


    ----
    SB 11.25.25
    vanaṁ tu sāttviko vāso
     grāmo rājasa ucyate
    tāmasaṁ dyūta-sadanaṁ
     man-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam

    Residence in the forest is in the mode of goodness, residence in a town is in the mode of passion, residence in a gambling house displays the quality of ignorance, and residence in a place where I reside is transcendental.


    SB 11.25.26
    sāttvikaḥ kārako saṅgī
     rāgāndho rājasaḥ smṛtaḥ
    tāmasaḥ smṛti-vibhraṣṭo
     nirguṇo mad-apāśrayaḥ


    A worker free of attachment is in the mode of goodness, a worker blinded by personal desire is in the mode of passion, and a worker who has completely forgotten how to tell right from wrong is in the mode of ignorance. But a worker who has taken shelter of Me is understood to be transcendental to the modes of nature.

    11.25.27
    sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
     karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
    tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
     mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā


    Faith directed toward spiritual life is in the mode of goodness, faith rooted in fruitive work is in the mode of passion, faith residing in irreligious activities is in the mode of ignorance, but faith in My devotional service is purely transcendental.


    VAsudev, ParaBrahman ParamAtmA, is hitting the nail here.

    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    hello and Namaste,

    Haha. By meditating on Him Krishna doesnt say Kasturi tilakam and all? That you got it from gopalasahasranama whose authenticity is anyway debatable.
    To make things clear Krishna by "meditate on me" means meditate on the nirakar akasha the brahman. check the following. No where does the two armed form come ever,. Either it is of Narayana or finally the eternal akasha

    SB 11.14.31 — Śrī Uddhava said: My dear lotus-eyed Kṛṣṇa, by what process should one who desires liberation meditate upon You, of what specific nature should his meditation be, and upon which form should he meditate? Kindly explain to me this topic of meditation.
    SB 11.14.32-33 — The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Sitting on a level seat that is not too high or too low, keeping the body straight and erect yet comfortable, placing the two hands on one’s lap and focusing the eyes on the tip of one’s nose, one should purify the pathways of breathing by practicing the mechanical exercises of pūraka, kumbhaka and recaka, and then one should reverse the procedure (recaka, kumbhaka, pūraka). Having fully controlled the senses, one may thus practice prāṇāyāma step by step.
    SB 11.14.34 — Beginning from the mūlādhāra-cakra, one should move the life air continuously upward like the fibers in the lotus stalk until one reaches the heart, where the sacred syllable om is situated like the sound of a bell. One should thus continue raising the sacred syllable upward the distance of twelve aṅgulas, and there the oṁkāra should be joined together with the fifteen vibrations produced with anusvāra.
    SB 11.14.35 — Being fixed in the oṁkāra, one should carefully practice the prāṇāyāma system ten times at each sunrise, noon and sunset. Thus, after one month one will have conquered the life air.
    SB 11.14.36-42 — Keeping the eyes half closed and fixed on the tip of one’s nose, being enlivened and alert, one should meditate on the lotus flower situated within the heart. This lotus has eight petals and is situated on an erect lotus stalk. One should meditate on the sun, moon and fire, placing them one after the other within the whorl of that lotus flower. Placing My transcendental form within the fire, one should meditate upon it as the auspicious goal of all meditation. That form is perfectly proportioned, gentle and cheerful. It possesses four beautiful long arms, a charming, beautiful neck, a handsome forehead, a pure smile and glowing, shark-shaped earrings suspended from two identical ears. That spiritual form is the color of a dark rain cloud and is garbed in golden-yellowish silk. The chest of that form is the abode of Śrīvatsa and the goddess of fortune, and that form is also decorated with a conchshell, disc, club, lotus flower and garland of forest flowers. The two brilliant lotus feet are decorated with ankle bells and bracelets, and that form exhibits the Kaustubha gem along with an effulgent crown. The upper hips are beautified by a golden belt, and the arms are decorated with valuable bracelets. All of the limbs of that beautiful form capture the heart, and the face is beautified by merciful glancing. Pulling the senses back from the sense objects, one should be grave and self-controlled and should use the intelligence to strongly fix the mind upon all of the limbs of My transcendental body. Thus one should meditate upon that most delicate transcendental form of Mine.
    SB 11.14.43 — One should then pull the consciousness back from all the limbs of that transcendental body. At that time, one should meditate only on the wonderfully smiling face of the Lord.
    SB 11.14.44Being established in meditation on the Lord’s face, one should then withdraw the consciousness and fix it in the sky. Then giving up such meditation, one should become established in Me and give up the process of meditation altogether.
    So after meditating on His face He asks the devotee to finally meditate on the sky, No matter what strung of devotion one is he has to finally merge in the brahman and personal forms are there just for our convenience because of our limited senses but even this Krishna has to merge in the brahman ultimately. so He Himself rates the sky over His face.
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 July 2014 at 04:14 PM.

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    hello and Namaste,

    SB 11.29.12 — With a pure heart one should see Me, the Supreme Soul within all beings and also within oneself, to be both unblemished by anything material and also present everywhere, both externally and internally, just like the omnipresent sky.
    SB 11.29.13-14 — O brilliant Uddhava, one who thus views all living entities with the idea that I am present within each of them, and who by taking shelter of this divine knowledge offers due respect to everyone, is considered actually wise. Such a man sees equally the brāhmaṇa and the outcaste, the thief and the charitable promoter of brahminical culture, the sun and the tiny sparks of fire, the gentle and the cruel.
    SB 11.29.15 — For him who constantly meditates upon My presence within all persons, the bad tendencies of rivalry, envy and abusiveness, along with false ego, are very quickly destroyed.
    SB 11.29.16 — Disregarding the ridicule of one’s companions, one should give up the bodily conception and its accompanying embarrassment. One should offer obeisances before all — even the dogs, outcastes, cows and asses — falling flat upon the ground like a rod.
    SB 11.29.17Until one has fully developed the ability to see Me within all living beings, one must continue to worship Me by this process with the activities of his speech, mind and body.

    So He means by the last quote that until one has understood Him as the nirakar Brahman he has to worship Him in a personal fashion because by His own words bhakti is done with speech mind and bodily limitations.
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 July 2014 at 04:14 PM.

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    Haha. By meditating on Him Krishna doesnt say Kasturi tilakam and all? That you got it from gopalasahasranama whose authenticity is anyway debatable.
    What ? There is no need to jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth -- you sound like you are holding a sword in hand ready to pounce.

    I simply started the discussion with my favourite kasturi tilakam and yatraiva ganga Yamuna triveni - you recite these versus before BhAgvat pArAyaN. I always like to start a discussion on BhAgvat with such verses. They are not put there for debate.

    I have nothing to either prove or disprove to you, and I never said anything about formful or formlessness on this thread.

    I also do not belong to any party here -- Congress or BJP, Republicans or Democrats, Form or Formless, NirguN or SaguN, dvaita or advaita etc. etc.

    I just think it is most beautiful what KRshNa is saying to Uddhav here.

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    hello and Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    || om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

    --------------

    Namaste,

    What do you have to say about these bhAgvat verses below (SB 11.25.24 to 27) spoken by BhagvAn Shri KrshNa ? He is very explicit in saying 'manniketanam' --- living in the forest is in goodness (sAttvic)) but living in My Temple, or My place of dwelling - manniketanam - is transcendental .

    This can be take as => My dwelling place is the heart of devotees - so one who lives there / the 'act' of living there is transcendental - nirguN.

    The stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires. Seva for the sake of seva, and nothing else.


    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
    Hahaha So contemplating on Brahman is sattvic? Where in the verses was this lie written? Can you elaborate why you misinterpreted the verses and how?You conveniently presumed due to your limited fanatical ignorance that sattvic worship is brahman worship. And neither by "my temple" does He mean His limited form which was burnt in the pyre by Arjuna after His death.
    Where did He say living in the forest is knowing Brahman?
    And one who "lives" with Him as a sevak is not nirguna FYI. That is shown when Jaya Vijaya prone to the typical ego get cursed by Sanaka and others. And the fact curses,ego exist in vaikuntha contradicts your point. And the fact that Vrinda got cursed by Radha and Radha got cursed by sudama and sudama got cursed by Radha ,,, and many more curses
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 July 2014 at 04:14 PM.

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    Hahaha So contemplating on Brahman is sattvic? Where in the verses was this lie written? Can you elaborate why you misinterpreted the verses and how?You conveniently presumed due to your limited fanatical ignorance that sattvic worship is brahman worship. And neither by "my temple" does He mean His limited form which was burnt in the pyre by Arjuna after His death.
    Where did He say living in the forest is knowing Brahman?
    And one who "lives" with Him as a sevak is not nirguna FYI. That is shown when Jaya Vijaya prone to the typical ego get cursed by Sanaka and others. And the fact curses,ego exist in vaikuntha contradicts your point. And the fact that Vrinda got cursed by Radha and Radha got cursed by sudama and sudama got cursed by Radha ,,, and many more curses
    Again you are putting words in my mouth thanks to your hatred of ISKCON groups. When did I say living in the forest = contemplating on Brahman? Krishna says in another verse SB 11.25.24 -- please read : kaivalyam = sattvicam , mannishTham = nirguNam. MannishTham = Having nishThA in Me, VAsudev, ParamAtmA ParaBrahman, is direct. Contemplation is a stage prior to that.

    In fact I was the one who said manniketanam can be taken as My dwelling i.e. hRday, heart!

    Put your sword down.
    Clear your mind of that hatred.
    Stop making assumptions about this writer or pen if you will'
    Stop jumping to conclusions based on some biased or prejudiced opinions about HDF writers
    Thank You
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 16 July 2014 at 10:57 PM. Reason: verse 24

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    And one who "lives" with Him as a sevak is not nirguna FYI. That is shown when Jaya Vijaya prone to the typical ego get cursed by Sanaka and others. And the fact curses,ego exist in vaikuntha contradicts your point. And the fact that Vrinda got cursed by Radha and Radha got cursed by sudama and sudama got cursed by Radha ,,, and many more curses
    11.25.27
    sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
     karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
    tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
     mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā

    mat-sevAyAm can mean My seva, => jiv sevA , since I reside in all hearts

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    Again you are putting words in my mouth thanks to your fanatical hatred of ISKCON groups. When did I say living in the forest = contemplating on Brahman? Krishna says in another verse SB 11.25.25 -- please read : kaivalyam = sattvicam , mannishTham = nirguNam. MannishTham = Having nishThA in Me, VAsudev, ParamAtmA ParaBrahman, is direct. Contemplation is a stage prior to that.

    In fact I was the one who said manniketanam can be taken as My dwelling i.e. hRday, heart!

    Thank You
    the stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires.

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    11.25.27
    sāttviky ādhyātmikī śraddhā
     karma-śraddhā tu rājasī
    tāmasy adharme yā śraddhā
     mat-sevāyāṁ tu nirguṇā

    mat-sevAyAm can mean My seva, => jiv sevA , since I reside in all hearts
    Exactly to the one who understands Him as the formless dweller in all hearts there are no more curses. But to the ones who think of Him with limited form as their personal master or lover or friends etc the fate of Jaya Vijaya Daksha Chitraketu awaits them

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    Re: SAttvic Versus NirguN

    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshamylord View Post
    the stage of Contemplating on Brahman is sAttvic (in goodness) indeed, but being in My seva bhakti (devotion with an attitude of service) is transcendental - becs one in this mode is free of desires.
    Yes, so? This is about verse 24 not 25.

    Again, kaivalyam = sAttvicam jn~Anam; mannishTham = nirguNam smRtam

    Verse 27: sAtviki adhyAtmic shradhhA ; mat-sevAyA tu nirguNA

    Saying : I am that Brahman, that AtmA is sAttviki shraddhA. Not having any such contemplatory thoughts [anymore], but just naturally getting drawn to My sevA [without thoughts, forgetting oneself] is nirguN (transcendental).
    What is sevA? What is bhakti? Bhakti is love and compassion in the heart, and seeing that VAsudev in all hearts.
    Last edited by ameyAtmA; 16 July 2014 at 10:50 PM.

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