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Thread: Mind - Everything?

  1. #21
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Dear Amrut.,

    Thanks for this long response and i want to say thank you for stating your understanding and position regarding Mana! I want to hear view points from other advaitins on this subject as it looks like it can give a lot more information regarding the "Advaita" system itself.

    Mana - Transmigrate - I understand your inability to give up on this as for you, the Mana has to be the Jiva!

    But, some school of Advaita stick to the Gita declaration and here it is

    sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
    mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
    vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
    vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham BG 15.15

    that the "remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness" - Shankara in fact adds the remembrance,knowledge as gift for good deeds and loss of memory as punishment for evil deeds. Thus, its not the Mana which is transmigrating but it is the "jiva" and the Ishwara is the "Total" controller of the panchaKosha! ( Aham Eva - I alone is the Supreme Self - So a clear distinction of Mana and Self is established by Shri Shankara in his bhasya. Also, interesting verse in BG is 2.22 and it talks about "Self" taking new body - it cannot be translated by any means to indicate "Mana" taking another body!

    Is there any better explanation available here?

    Thanks
    Hare Krshna!

  2. #22
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Amrut.,

    Thanks for this long response and i want to say thank you for stating your understanding and position regarding Mana! I want to hear view points from other advaitins on this subject as it looks like it can give a lot more information regarding the "Advaita" system itself.

    Mana - Transmigrate - I understand your inability to give up on this as for you, the Mana has to be the Jiva!

    But, some school of Advaita stick to the Gita declaration and here it is

    sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
    mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
    vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
    vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham BG 15.15

    that the "remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness" - Shankara in fact adds the remembrance,knowledge as gift for good deeds and loss of memory as punishment for evil deeds. Thus, its not the Mana which is transmigrating but it is the "jiva" and the Ishwara is the "Total" controller of the panchaKosha! ( Aham Eva - I alone is the Supreme Self - So a clear distinction of Mana and Self is established by Shri Shankara in his bhasya. Also, interesting verse in BG is 2.22 and it talks about "Self" taking new body - it cannot be translated by any means to indicate "Mana" taking another body!

    Is there any better explanation available here?

    Thanks
    Hare Krshna!
    Namaste Grames ji

    BG and mind and jiva and paramatma

    Yes, in BG 15.15, it is said that it is only paramAtmA. But Adi Sankaracharya ji does not state it is jiva. There is a verse in the same adhyAya 15.7. Continuing the explanation Adi Sankara in 15.8 says that [jiva], sixth indriya-s (senses) including the mind - i.e. mind is the sixth, [jiva] takes them with itself. Explanation continues in 15.9 , where agian, Adi Sankara explains which are these six indriya-s along with mind .

    BG BG 2.22, it has to be taken as jiva and not mind. What I am saying is lower bodies, except karaNa Sarira, are created and destroyed in each cycle of birth and death, but mana (mind) never dies. Agreed that jiva controls the process of transmigration --> see I am admitting there is jiva (smilie). See brother, I am not disagreeing.

    Ultimately it is paramAtmA that is enjoying everything or working through senses and mind, it is not even jiva.

    Relative terms and gradual rise in consciouness

    The words are explained in relative sense. Arjuna in chapter 1 says 'I' will not kill them. This 'I' is related to body, then bhagavAn raises his consciousness to 'jiva' and later on to Brahman.

    When in relation to body, senses are subtle, so in ascending order of subtility (cetan) it is.

    physical body --> senses --> mind --> intellect --> ego --> jiva --> brahman.

    So when we talk from the process of evolution i.e. rise of awareness to a certain level i.e. body or mind, we say, mind is cetan. We do not blast the bomb of paramAtmA directly. Take it step by step. Remember when prajApatI daxa advised indra, he didnt blasted nuclear bomb. Each time he replied that there is something subtle and finally indra realized brahman . Remember, each time indra deva took the newly experienced state as the final, the best, i.e. Brahman.

    mana is not jiva, I agree eace: --> white flag. But it is important - no I wont quit (teeth showing smilie)

    The idea is to rise a person step by step, e.g. by giving step by step instruction of kosha-s, gross to subtle bodies. So when during meditation one suddenly experiences prANamaya kosha, which he has never experienced, he knows - this is not the end, and so I should not get fascinated with it. This is true for other kosha-s too, just incase you experience it.

    Finally you rise above them. If you want to climb 108 steps, then you cannot directly jump to 108th, there is no cheat code , no bribes can be given, no nitro boost (more teeth showing smilies). Consciousness rises.

    Connecting gradual rise in consciouness with neti-neti

    This too is neti neti only, though not directly practised. How?, Take the e.g. of climbing steps.

    To move further, you will put one foot on the next step, but this is not enough, you will have to renounce the lower step. This renunciation is compulsory and it is natural. If you stick your foot to one step, will you be able to walk ahead? No. So only by renunciation of former step ( gross state), one can progress to a later (subtler state). The one that was subtle, now becomes gross.

    Again, 'renounce' simply means detachment -- a-sanga, this a-sanga is our weapon which one has to use it and hit the inverted tree firmly. So no clinging to non-self, the more you cling, the more you take time to up-root this tree, which finally is imaginative (Adi Sankara says so)

    All terms including ISvara are relative. Jiva is relative. So the definitions are also relative, in relation to something. The definition of absolute is not possible. Absolute reality is brahman only. But rise and rise above this duality, until you reach a state that there is no duality, there is nothing that is more subtler than that you are, there is nothing left to renounce, there is no non-self. There is only Self, the brahman. This is as far as one can go.

    I am thankful to you that you have taken pain to go through my long replies (hey I am assuming that you are going through -- smilies)

    Lets wait and see if other members would like to take part in discussion, as generally after certain posts, many loose interest and not all are interested in this topic.

    More on mind - it is helpful tool

    Lots of psychological explanation can be given to a student w.r.t mind, changing nature, ignoring verbal accusations in professional life and how you should keep the mind steady and detached. When one is emotionally hurt as someone has accused him of dis-loyalty and insults him in front of 10 people, you dont say - See, you are none of these, BMI complex (Body-Mind-Intellect), you are either jiva or Shiva. You will have to soothen this fellow, calm him down and then ask him to detach from this incident, forget it. Still if one is not able to do it, then explain him psychologically, that - now you know that your mind reacts, you have ego, so there is much to work. Again, in meditation when you sit, this indecent of insult will pop up, as you have taken it to your heart. Then mind will show it's force. It is this time, that one is asked to just be aware and say - you are not mind, you are not thought, just detach from mind, but how? be aware of thoughts, let them flow, do not force them to run away, let them come, face them and neglect them. You are give some e.g. of how mind works, how it reacts. So neglect thoughts, do not let yourself to involve in this scene which mind is creating. Be aware of the whole process and be awitness, when the force of thoughts decreases, start chanting OM, focus on OM and have faith that OM can tackle anything, these thoughts, this mind, everything. See, the incident has happended, do not live in past, right now you are sitting in meditation, so just dont pay attention to these mental impulses, and so on ...

    This is called as practical training. At times, for time being, this top-most tatva Jnana of mithyAta, has to be left aside.

    Then when mind is steady, no thoughts or less thoughts are coming and hat toothey are not powerful enough to push aside OM, then say, oh, this mind is jaDa, there is something above it, else you could not be awitness of mind, you did it, great, now move one, know that it is jaDa, dive deep. Mind is divided into 2 - one pulling towards samsAra, another towards ISvara. So take the help of this part of mind and rise above it, there is no other way. Even Atma--vicAra is done with the help of mind, but this type of thinking, one rises above mind and so with OM. The instruction that this mind is jaDA, do not pay attention is also done with the help of mind only.

    Like a poll volt. An Athlete has a long bamboo and there is a cross bar installed at a certain foot high. The athlete runs with this poll volt, the bamboo, and jump with it's help and finally leave this bamboo and jump on the other side of cross bar, into the infinite sky. This bamboo represents mind

    Mind is everything i.e. mind is important -- agree. I am not quitting (smilies, teeth showing smilies)

    I think too much is said, isnt it? I am exhausted.

    OM
    Last edited by Amrut; 06 August 2014 at 11:35 AM. Reason: added titles for easy reading
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  3. #23
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    || Hari OM ||

    Grames bhai, one question

    Where are all the vAsanA-s stored? (dis-satisfied desires), where are sanchit karma-s stored? (actions done in past, until they ripe to give fruits).

    Inside that cute little thinge, a point of light, jiva? yes, sure? or are they in books of chitrakut, yamadev? - just saying with light heart

    I agree mind is jaDA and jiva exists until there is ignorace, but mind is important, very critical. Am I getting repetitive, Am I annoying you? I pray not, God forbid.

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  4. #24
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Doing a Quick Reply...

    In your thesis or philosophy, you have no Room to avoid Mana - Now, you have forcefully made the "Mana" the central piece of everything! Now, your mana is.,

    1.Jiva in Vyavaharika staya and there cannot be any more Upadhi's - a very dull position as everything else will be then creation of the Mana! ( as you put it in very early messages as "interpretations and perceptions")
    2. Maya - The Root Cause as well - as you are now giving the impression that, removal of Mind means "Brahman Realization" as there is nothing else that hinders this realization
    3. The circular dependency - Mana has to give up itself with no other help!
    4. Mana is now Ishwara as well - in a larger picture there is no difference between the Ishwara and Mana

    i can count on the objections because of this understanding of Mana as Jiva and their implications! Again, i might be throwing all this from my lens of vision so no worries!

    As i told you earlier, it is not a problem if the Paramatma is admissible - as in the the antrAtma who in fact is the second bird in the tree of life who can remember and give infinite jiva's vasana, karma, bhanda moha etc etc individually. ( Hope you know the ChitraGupt).

    Hare Krshna!

  5. #25
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    || Hari OM ||

    Namaste grames ji,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Doing a Quick Reply...

    In your thesis or philosophy, you have no Room to avoid Mana - Now, you have forcefully made the "Mana" the central piece of everything! Now, your mana is.,
    All I can say is mana is important tool and all vAsanA-s are there inside mana.

    1.Jiva in Vyavaharika staya and there cannot be any more Upadhi's - a very dull position as everything else will be then creation of the Mana! ( as you put it in very early messages as "interpretations and perceptions")
    Nope. Mana is not jiva

    2. Maya - The Root Cause as well - as you are now giving the impression that, removal of Mind means "Brahman Realization" as there is nothing else that hinders this realization
    As I have said, when you rise above mind, then there are no thoughts, all experience is due to mind. I do not say, mind is ultimate

    3. The circular dependency - Mana has to give up itself with no other help!
    Nope. Mana has to be given with the help of itself - one part says, enjoy this world, another says, go towards ISvara, so it has a student and a teacher. Even chanting name is done with the help of mana only, later on when it continues by itself, then you move out of mind. This OM is universal sound going on by itself. If you can be aware, then you can ignore mind. But it keep working.

    when all vAsanA-s are uprooted, then mind dies. Now there is no agitation. Hence we say, that when there is no mind, one is in brahmi sthiti. Mind and ego are connected. When there is no mind, no sense of 'I' ness is experienced.

    See bro, when we are thinking on something, then that part has to be given importance. nothing more.

    All these love letters between us are done through mind only. i.e. mind is used, as a toll, I do not say it has it's own effulgence. Effulgence is jiva, which in turn is nothing but Brahman. Mind is bulb, not electricity.

    So anything that you cognize, is due to mind, all the emotions, bhAva, are due to mind. To interpret anything, mind is needed.


    4. Mana is now Ishwara as well - in a larger picture there is no difference between the Ishwara and Mana
    Nope, mana is not ISvara at any time, even in practical purpose. Mind is nothing but continuous flow of thoughts, as said by Adi Sankara - samkalpa-vikalpa iti mana

    ISvara is omnipresent, while mana is not.

    Without mind you cant do anything, this does not mean, mind is everything. There is something that 'lights' the mind.

    i can count on the objections because of this understanding of Mana as Jiva and their implications! Again, i might be throwing all this from my lens of vision so no worries!
    mana is not jiva, jiva takes mind along with 5 senses, so mana is not jiva

    When I say, without physical body, you cant even chant God's name - this does not mean, body is everything and that it is jiva or ishvara and it is the ultimate and is enjoyer of fruits of karma. -- I am just giving importance of to physical body, nothing more.

    As i told you earlier, it is not a problem if the Paramatma is admissible - as in the the antrAtma who in fact is the second bird in the tree of life who can remember and give infinite jiva's vasana, karma, bhanda moha etc etc individually. ( Hope you know the ChitraGupt).

    Hare Krshna!
    Advaita does not say there are two entities sitting inside heart - it ISvara only. jiva is just a reflection of jiva. In those BG 15 chapter verses that we discussed, Adi Sankara has given pot breaking e.g.

    Anyways, I think that time has come for opinions of others on what they think, as atleast I have told everything that I know.

    I may have wrongly interpreted. In this case, I think it is time to take a break and come back again.

    I will surely read your reply (if you chose to reply).

    I must admit and really appreciate the civility maintained by you in this discussion. Honestly, you kept a check on your argumentive and agressive nature (which you get at times). I also appreciate that after my request, you have tried your best to explain things in simple way.

    I like simplicity.

    So if I got the answer in that thread that - 'Ultimately, on vyavahArika level, it is jiva that is enjoyer and not mind, mind is just a tool', things would have been very very different. and this is your conclusion after reading and contemplating a lot of books, and spending a lot of time in spirituality and is due to the grace of krishna, as whatever we understand even partially, it is due to his grace only.

    At anytime, if I have caused hurt to you or to anyone with my writings, please accept my apologies.

    Hare Krishna

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  6. #26
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Dear Amrut.,

    Thanks once again for the nice reply and appreciate it. But i fear, you have understood my earlier message and i think i am done questioning you ( as i have understood your stand very clearly)

    Nope. Mana is not jiva
    When mana gives up, you only said
    'samadhi and this state remains permanent. so the first experience is last experience". Where is anything beyond Mana - In fact, you are stating the principles of Aja and you are right but i am not able to accept it. ( Take it easy - You cannot say Mana is Jiva, you cannot admit Jiva itself as existent)

    You Said:
    As I have said, when you rise above mind, then there are no thoughts, all experience is due to mind. I do not say, mind is ultimate

    Who or what is 'that' you are saying "Should" raise above "mind"? Jiva? I do not see scope for Jiva here as if it is the "Doer" ( as in "Raising" above mind - it has to be accepted as the "Doer" - such jiva itself then should be admitted as existent and that is what i stated but you cannot given in to that). If i raise above Mana, i am in to "Brahmanhood" - whether such is temporary (as in your case) or temporarily permanent (as in JivanMukta) or permanently temporary (as in unfortunate like me) or just Permanent as in Brahman! In all the cases, there is no scope for something called "Jiva" and thus i assumed that for you "Mana is Jiva" as you haven't pointed out any subject here in your arrow connected list of conscious elevation/progression as Jiva!

    Nope. Mana has to be given with the help of itself - one part says, enjoy this world, another says, go towards ISvara, so it has a student and a teacher.
    I understand your statement! I do not get the meaning because it doesn't make one for me! We do call it "Ego" and ego alone has two sides of action and one that get attached to the glitters of joy of material nature and the other that gets absorbed in to the beauty and majesty of Lord. The positive Ego is the driver for us to be good, spiritually motivated and inspired, serve others, do yoga etc. The negative one is just opposite of it! If you meant the same, i am fine with it. ( But, your statement still does not point out the subject "jiva" as success of mind here is Brahmanhood and not Jiva or Ishwara)

    Even chanting name is done with the help of mana only, later on when it continues by itself, then you move out of mind.
    Who is that you here? ( Don't say the one asking) Is it Jiva? Is it Brahman? Don't want to leave it as a question... for me, with your so far responses, there is no "You" and that youness is also because of the ego, the driver and who posses this ego? The non existent Jiva or reflection of Brahman - Double Dosha - meaning twin faults - Jiva being reflection cannot act - Brahman must act but Brahman cannot be admitted as "Acting"! Not Brahman - Cause Brahman never looses Brahmanhood so that is not to be obtained and always in established state! So, i still do not see a scope for Jiva - beyond your definition of Mana so why i said, you do not have "jiva" in your thesis. Or you are not ready to admit the Jiva as the Doer and Mana as just the Jada under the control and spell of Jiva)

    All these love letters between us are done through mind only. i.e. mind is used, as a tool, I do not say it has it's own effulgence. Effulgence is jiva, which in turn is nothing but Brahman. Mind is bulb, not electricity.
    That's your view and your example does not reveal what is possible or what else is possible. AtmaPrema is something you are not aware because, unfortunately you have denied it and there is no "Jiva" for you beyond Mana ( Though you are surprised and explaining again as like you have one in your admissible theory) and so why you are putting your own limitation ignoring the reality of the possibility or the ultimate natural potential of the "Atma" which is prema! So, when Atma is utilized as the expressing subjects, its the ultimate Prema and the end in itself but in continuum! ( Can you even grasp such idea???)

    So anything that you cognize, is due to mind, all the emotions, bhAva, are due to mind. To interpret anything, mind is needed.
    You are stuck with this - To Cognize the Material manifestation, we require the material agent and instrument Mind! To experience something that is not matter, MIND is not REQUIRED and we are here talking about a subject matter which is not a Jada! ( Jiva is not a Jada - But you have already said, Jiva also will be a Jada eventually - that's your stand and i do understand it as your only choice)

    Nope, mana is not ISvara at any time, even in practical purpose.
    I don't think i can explain this to you - because it will become a refutation talk . If you have something called "Ishwara" that is other than Mana, then your understanding of Mana when given up should not result in Brahmanhood but something else as there is still Ishwara! ( As Ishwara is saguna - when you say giving up mind, it means you have given up all "Saguna" aspects - including the Ishwara) - Do not argue here please.

    Without mind you cant do anything, this does not mean, mind is everything. There is something that 'lights' the mind.
    huh? What you mean there is "something"? And what is that "Something" that lights mind? Care to elaborate this alone?

    mana is not jiva, jiva takes mind along with 5 senses, so mana is not jiva
    U Turn? Where is that Jiva? What is it? Jiva is Jiva or Jiva is always Brahman?
    If Brahman with Senses is Jiva, Jiva is just a temporary name - non existent - AjatiVada! Even in this, the Doership should be admitted as "Brahman" and it is the very Brahman who choose to reveal Himself! ( SelfRealization - By the Self - Circular dependency again)
    If Jiva is Reflection of Brahman, PratiBimba cannot act on it own! Moon reflecting on the well will not turn red in one, blue in another unless there is an Upadhi ( the water in the well being real - making the color of the moon different in different well) and admitting such Upadhi is very dangerous to Advaitam! ( for the rule that, PratiBimba cannot act on its own - water in the well itself must be a pratiBimba). All the pots made out of the clay, cannot have different diameter, different height if they are "reflection" of the same clay!
    Let me stop here...i know its jumping to "Refutation" again...but please consider these are options i am "thinking" with my total ignorance rather an attempt to refute!

    Advaita does not say there are two entities sitting inside heart - it ISvara only. jiva is just a reflection of jiva ( correting: You mean Reflection of Brahman). In those BG 15 chapter verses that we discussed, Adi Sankara has given pot breaking e.g.
    I did not tell "Advaita" as you have asked for fitting answer! I said, if the Paramatma is admissible, the transmigration is solved and it is supported by BG and Sve.Up! Two bird theory of Advaita has flaw in it but i don't want to jump to refutation here. Remember, Advaita also MUST admit doer ship ONLY to Brahman and i have known advaitin who walk the path of Advaita with just that!

    I like simplicity.
    Me too! But we complicate simple things with our ego and force it on others as well right?

  7. #27

    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Friends,
    Due to Maya, when the sthula, sukshma, karana [gross, subtle and causal] bodies are taken for Self, the product is jiva.

    Jiva is in the identification with the "seen" ... in waking state i see a waking body and carve out a jiva who is that waking body with its thoughts etc. This is the waking jiva!

    In dream we see a dream body and carve out a jiva with the dream body and dream world. This is the dream jiva.

    In deep sleep we see nothing and so we carve out an ignorant "one" - the jiva.

    Ignorance is identification with this jiva. One who sees jiva jagat ishvara as mithya is liberated. He sees and yet does not identify. One need not "Raise" above mind .... one just has to recognize that one is not the mind and this one has to recognize at the level of mind alone ! since body is jada and does not need liberation. Self or Awareness being ever free does not need liberation. Thus, only Mind needs a correction ... and once that is done one leads a liberated life.

    One continues to see jiva, jagat and ishvara but knows all three as mithya. Even as one sees the earth as flat but is never confused ! One knows clearly that its only apparent, a mithya.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  8. #28
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    [quote=grames;118935]Dear Amrut.,

    Thanks once again for the nice reply and appreciate it. But i fear, you have understood my earlier message and i think i am done questioning you ( as i have understood your stand very clearly)
    Namaste Grames ji,

    I think it must be misunderstood


    When mana gives up, you only said
    'samadhi and this state remains permanent. so the first experience is last experience". Where is anything beyond Mana - In fact, you are stating the principles of Aja and you are right but i am not able to accept it. ( Take it easy - You cannot say Mana is Jiva, you cannot admit Jiva itself as existent)

    You Said:
    As I have said, when you rise above mind, then there are no thoughts, all experience is due to mind. I do not say, mind is ultimate
    no no, no. I gave a long explanation.

    when consciousness rises above mind, then there is nothing to experience separately. By referring to mind, we can also take antakaraNa along with it's 4 variants. But mind is enough, as when one rises above mind (as consciousness), then there is no experience of separateness.

    Now coming back to -- and this state remains permanent.

    I disagree. In yoga, may be?, one thinks that after burning all desires that are inside mind, ther eis the first experience of samadhi, not before and once this state is reached, it is permanent. so first experience is last experience and then there is no change in this state. --> I don't agree with this concept.

    Even temporarily, when mind rests or becomes inactive, then one enters into samadhi, but as mind is not dead yet, i.e. all desires are not uprooted / burnet, so it rises again and pulls the consciousness back, again mind detaches and then rises above mind and enters into samadhi. gradualy the time period of samadhi increases and finally mind is destroyed, i.e. all vasanas are destroyed, then this state becomes permanent. Now need to mediate anymore. It is your natural state.

    Who or what is 'that' you are saying "Should" raise above "mind"? Jiva? I do not see scope for Jiva here as if it is the "Doer" ( as in "Raising" above mind - it has to be accepted as the "Doer" - such jiva itself then should be admitted as existent and that is what i stated but you cannot given in to that). If i raise above Mana, i am in to "Brahmanhood" - whether such is temporary (as in your case) or temporarily permanent (as in JivanMukta) or permanently temporary (as in unfortunate like me) or just Permanent as in Brahman! In all the cases, there is no scope for something called "Jiva" and thus i assumed that for you "Mana is Jiva" as you haven't pointed out any subject here in your arrow connected list of conscious elevation/progression as Jiva!
    Here again, the words like 'should', 'rise' and even 'meditate' are taken as actions. These are not the actions for two reasons

    1. the whole attempt is done to clam down mind and the final product is rising beyond mind, which is stillness.

    Why So?

    Because, this karma of chanting and sitting in meditation does not trap us into the viscous cycle of birth and death, infact it results into the opposite.

    2. After reaching a certain state in meditation, everything happens by itself, there is no effort, no chanting of mantra. I have said this before. OM continues by itself and mind is naturally pulled into source. Hence there is no 'effort' no doership. thats why I asked, can witness act at the same time when it is a doer? can it be done doer and witness at the same time.

    Trust me, you, as an individual, has no control over it, you as an individual has no role to play and something else is waiting for you. This is nothing but brahman.

    But it will be dishonesty on my part to say that before you reach this state of realization and effortless meditation, you say that it is only brahman. It has to be mind, but then this mind is not the most subtlest, so it is jiva (smilie) agree.

    But advaita does not stop here, the very process is to ask this question - is this all the work of jiva? who is jiva, who am I? and this is not mental repetition, or not just a thought thought process, it is search, an enquiry and on will know that one is witness of the whole process. IMHO this jiva is nothing but consciousness, but layered with ignorance and 5 mahabhutas, detach this association and what remains is brahman only. Even when you are not into state of samadhi, you are still an awareness and my personal experience is that this consciousness, which we can take it as jiva, does not change at any time, only it detaches itself from that which is non-self. The wrong identification is destroyed with the help of a-sanga sastra. It's like piling layers of onion. Lastly nothing remains. What remains is 'I' and this is completeness. So we say that there is no jiva. Are you getting it. It is too difficult to understand this.


    I understand your statement! I do not get the meaning because it doesn't make one for me! We do call it "Ego" and ego alone has two sides of action and one that get attached to the glitters of joy of material nature and the other that gets absorbed in to the beauty and majesty of Lord. The positive Ego is the driver for us to be good, spiritually motivated and inspired, serve others, do yoga etc. The negative one is just opposite of it! If you meant the same, i am fine with it. ( But, your statement still does not point out the subject "jiva" as success of mind here is Brahmanhood and not Jiva or Ishwara)
    Yes, but ego doe snot think Ego is sense of 'i' and 'mine' al lthinking including the sweet and blissful form of ISvara is done with the help of mind only. Ego does not think. Intellect only gives direction to thoughts, chitta recites the holy name of natkhat nanda-lala, and the whole picture of vrindavan is constructed in the mind.

    Mind thinks, it cannot stay without thoughts.

    ---

    I request you to try a simple thing. Will you please?

    Inhale and hold the breath. Close your mouth and nose with both hands. Do not let any air to be exhaled. Retain the air as much as you can until you can hold any longer, not even a second. Just before you are about to release your hands, what mind of thoughts you have? or is there any form of ISvara, say krishna and this form stays right to the end? please do let me know.

    Who is that you here? ( Don't say the one asking) Is it Jiva? Is it Brahman? Don't want to leave it as a question... for me, with your so far responses, there is no "You" and that youness is also because of the ego, the driver and who posses this ego? The non existent Jiva or reflection of Brahman - Double Dosha - meaning twin faults - Jiva being reflection cannot act - Brahman must act but Brahman cannot be admitted as "Acting"! Not Brahman - Cause Brahman never looses Brahmanhood so that is not to be obtained and always in established state! So, i still do not see a scope for Jiva - beyond your definition of Mana so why i said, you do not have "jiva" in your thesis. Or you are not ready to admit the Jiva as the Doer and Mana as just the Jada under the control and spell of Jiva)
    no twin dosha (smilie)

    It is a realization. It is more of a search, an inner exploration. Try it and abide in source.

    Those explanations are given with the intention of letting us know that there is something beyond jiva.

    but now I understand your point and the whole argument that youare saying, perhaps, influenced form mayavada khandan , just joking

    'I' is always there. Existence of 'I' is self-evident. Why are you hesitant to ask this question? Without 'I', the first person, there cannot be the 'you', the second person, and 'he' the third person.

    jiva is non-existent only from parmarthika level. This is realization. We begin with presumption that 'I am jiva'. But it asks the question, 'are you really jiva', search, dive deep within.

    Ultimately as you have said, ISvara, who is brahman with name and ofrm, drops, and only nirguNa brahman remains. We use a-sanga to reach this a-sanga brahman (smilie)


    That's your view and your example does not reveal what is possible or what else is possible. AtmaPrema is something you are not aware because, unfortunately you have denied it and there is no "Jiva" for you beyond Mana ( Though you are surprised and explaining again as like you have one in your admissible theory) and so why you are putting your own limitation ignoring the reality of the possibility or the ultimate natural potential of the "Atma" which is prema! So, when Atma is utilized as the expressing subjects, its the ultimate Prema and the end in itself but in continuum! ( Can you even grasp such idea???)
    this prema, or ananda, is not separate to be experienced. AS tap-record, whatever you 'experience' is within the realm of mind only, be it this world, or heaven, or vaikuntha or darshan of ISvara - nope I wont quit


    You are stuck with this - To Cognize the Material manifestation, we require the material agent and instrument Mind! To experience something that is not matter, MIND is not REQUIRED and we are here talking about a subject matter which is not a Jada! ( Jiva is not a Jada - But you have already said, Jiva also will be a Jada eventually - that's your stand and i do understand it as your only choice)
    I disagree. and it is not my choice, it is experience. If theory cannot become experience, then it is useless.

    huh? What you mean there is "something"? And what is that "Something" that lights mind? Care to elaborate this alone?
    Yes, there is something that lits the mind, this is brahman. Jiva is reflection and not the original source. It is moon and not sun.


    U Turn? Where is that Jiva? What is it? Jiva is Jiva or Jiva is always Brahman?
    If Brahman with Senses is Jiva, Jiva is just a temporary name - non existent - AjatiVada! Even in this, the Doership should be admitted as "Brahman" and it is the very Brahman who choose to reveal Himself! ( SelfRealization - By the Self - Circular dependency again)
    If Jiva is Reflection of Brahman, PratiBimba cannot act on it own! Moon reflecting on the well will not turn red in one, blue in another unless there is an Upadhi ( the water in the well being real - making the color of the moon different in different well) and admitting such Upadhi is very dangerous to Advaitam! ( for the rule that, PratiBimba cannot act on its own - water in the well itself must be a pratiBimba). All the pots made out of the clay, cannot have different diameter, different height if they are "reflection" of the same clay!
    Let me stop here...i know its jumping to "Refutation" again...but please consider these are options i am "thinking" with my total ignorance rather an attempt to refute!
    Jiva is jiva until you experience it that way. but it is not an end. jiva is just abhAva, and it looses it's existence (abhAva) only when one realizes brahman.

    this theory is non-existence is to be practically applied when one reaches a state of nirvikalp samadhi. ajativada is for those who are just about to enter into this state, not for all. thats why adhikAra bhede. all updeshas are not for everybody. ajativada even refutes vivarta vada and makes a joke of yoga, meditation, etc, as you are always brahman, if you are not is a position to understand then even advaitins are not given this tatva gyana and are not asked to think on this line.

    Please consider vyavaharika satya nad paramarthika satya.

    All efforts are made to rise one from vyavaharika to parmarthika. Please do not take the word 'rise' literally.


    I did not tell "Advaita" as you have asked for fitting answer! I said, if the Paramatma is admissible, the transmigration is solved and it is supported by BG and Sve.Up! Two bird theory of Advaita has flaw in it but i don't want to jump to refutation here. Remember, Advaita also MUST admit doer ship ONLY to Brahman and i have known advaitin who walk the path of Advaita with just that!
    Now you have one more friend who walk differently

    Two bird theory is interpreted differently.

    Me too! But we complicate simple things with our ego and force it on others as well right?
    agree (smilie)

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  9. #29

    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Dear Amrut ji,
    I have not been following your conversations ... so this is not a comment on the conversation and topic of discussion per say..
    I would like to point out :

    when consciousness rises above mind
    Consciousness raises no where. Consciousness is SAT, Mind is Mithya! Consciousness does not go beyond mind. Consciousness is YOU ... ever Liberated .

    Destruction of mind is also not to be taken literally .
    Mind is never alive to be killed.
    Mind is a myth.

    Sri Annamalai Swami [Ramana's direct disciple] says : Mind is like a shadow. Attempts to kill it are like trying to bury one's own shadow.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  10. #30
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    Re: Mind - Everything?

    Namast SS ji,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I understand that you did not read the whole conversation. My idea was and still is that advaita and spirituality in general should be practically applied in life.

    That is why, I am avoiding the polemical debates. I also admit that I am not strong in this area.

    Grames ji knows that I have avoided twin-dosha

    brahman is never deluded and brahman deluded - yes both are said in advaita, contradictory ?

    But answering means that I will enter into this debate.

    What I feel is that if we see snake, but keeping saying I see rope, then this is hypocrisy. Those statements are there to arise us. Please understand the context. 'Rise' is not to be taken literally. You got to explain in some way.

    Our mind is coloured by 3 colours and so all that is perceived is influenced by this guNa-s. Brahman which is beyond guNa-s cannot be understood. Our vision itself is flawed. It would be unwise to think of it and try to give a judgement.

    If jiva or mana didnt exist, if this world didnt exist, i.e. it was non-existent, like rabut's horn, then there was no point to say - jiva is brahman. I know we adhere ot vivarta vAda and not pariNAma vAda, so there is no becoming, but still instead of merely parroting, we should try to rise and take these statement as milestone, rather than our present condition.

    Only after realizing the truth, we can say that mana is mithyA or that it is non-existence, else it increases Ego - this is big problem of GYAna mArga - Ego.

    As I have said, it is better to try and realize the truth - 'brahman is never deluded and what we thought earlier that it is deluded and lost it's brahmanhood just like sun being veiled by clouds never lost it's shine, never was ever a time when sun was ever veiled clouds' Yet this was true from practical experience. I will stop here, else even after repeatedly trying to avoid it, I myself drag into the discussion.

    Though I may philosophically agree with you, each statement has it's own place. ajativAda is not for masses. Ya I know you and also grames ji believe that vedanta is for everybody.

    Your comments about mana may trigger yet another discussion

    Thanks again

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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