Fossilisim VS Subjective Evolutionisim

[Samraat Bhismadeva Maurya]

Hari Bol!
All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga

Which do you believe in, both in Temporal and Ontological sense, your choice but explain your choice.
By form I mean matter.

Darwin theory - Form before Consciousness is the notion that consciousness is at first sight a biological phenomenon. Therefore, any model of consciousness needs to have robust biological foundations.
Subjective Evolution - Consciousness before Form is the notion that Consciousness is producing everything. Consciousness is eternal.
A little bit of Both - You believe some concepts of Darwin and the concepts of subjective evolution.

Try and explain your answer

Personally I believe in a temporal sense that Consciousness comes before Form and that the form is a product of our imagination (WILL EXPLAIN MY VIEWS SOON)
Thank you,

Jai Sri Radhe-Syam!

[renuka]

Hari Bol!
All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga

Which do you believe in

Darwin theory - Form before Consciousness
Subjective Evolution - Consciousness before Form

Try and explain your answer

Thank you,

Jai Sri Radhe-Syam!

Namaste Ji,

Great topic!

If you ask me I think I rather believe in a little of both. (Sorry could not vote in your poll because you did not have the option for believing in a bit of both)

Darwin dealt with physical evolution but he left Consciousness out of his equation and landed himself with the unsolved missing link.

Evolution of Consciousness added to Darwins theory would complete the whole picture.

Consciousness as in Universal Consciousness(UC) pervades the entire universe but its degree of awareness is subjective to the physical form it fills.

For example compare a human and a tree..both have the same UC but the awareness is higher in the human because of the presence of the mind and the Central Nervous system and its network to support the mind and its functions and allowing the Consciousness to project itself in a higher manner as compared to a plant which lacks an intricate Central Nervous System(CNS)

A less intricate CNS allows only a certain extent of projection of consciousness.

So if you ask me I feel the both physical and consciousness evolution go hand in hand...both compliment each other.

BTW if we take the Dashavatar..it does go along the lines of evolution.

Matsya the Fish(Aquatic)

Kurma the Turtle(which can also live on land and water)

Varaha(The mammal..land creature)

Naramsimha(Part man Part Animal)

Vamana (Early man..short in stature)

Parashurama(Developing man..aggressive in nature)

Rama(The ideal human.)

Krishna (Paramatma)

Buddha (The Thinking man..in Kali Yuga we dont use much brawn to fight but man uses intellect more..men are smaller in Kali Yuga and head size of babies have increased compared to the past)

Kalki(The man in charge)

[wundermonk]

Greetings,

Darwin theory - Form before Consciousness
Subjective Evolution - Consciousness before Form

Are you meaning "before" in a temporal sense or an ontological sense?

By form, do you mean matter?

In any case, the traditional Hindu realist view is that time itself never "began to exist". Consciousness and matter are irreducible to each other and have always existed without beginning and will always exist without end.

Do you have a third option, therefore, in your poll?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Hari Bol!
All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga

Which do you believe in

Darwin theory - Form before Consciousness
Subjective Evolution - Consciousness before Form

Try and explain your answer

Thank you,

Jai Sri Radhe-Syam!

How can one offer insight if they are not aware of this concept...

As asked ( many many times) one should define their terms:

Darwin theory - Form before Consciousness is the notion that __________( fill in accordingly)
Subjective Evolution - Consciousness before Form is the notion that __________( fill in accordingly)

This will be my last request on this matter... we will then start to delete the posts that care not to follow such a simple request.

... do as you see fit.

iti śivaṁ

[Viraja]

Namaste,

Here's my simple take on it:

First sound was born. From sound sky was born. From sky, water was born. From water, Fire was born. From Fire, earth was born. All these 5 'panchabhutas' did have consciousness of their own (or so I understand). The body of humans and other living entities which is but a combination of these panchabhutas, therefore had consciousness first before form.

This is my understanding and I stand corrected, if any of my above assumptions is wrong.

[grames]

greetings and hello,
The theistic schools do not ascribe "consciousness" to Jada prakriti and the thumb rule is that, when Agni is described as "Acting", its the jiva who is the atipathi of Agni is acting!

Consciousness and Jada were eternal as per SD - every school accept this and so which came first is unanswerable question as they both are "anAdi".

[Viraja]

Grames ji,

I have a question. You say consciousness and Jada are Anadi. But surely before creation of the panchabutas and of the ultimate 'form' of beings on earth, this jadaa which existed as 'moola-prakriti' on bhagavan's body did not have any form of its own! Therefore only consciousness existed and ofcourse moola-prakriti (which I do not know what form it was) existed. Thus we can say consciousness existed before form?

Thanks.

[grames]

Dear Viraja ji.,

I believe your faith is in VA., so it is easy to explain! When you see the Aalilai Krshnan, He is conscious but He also holds the entire brahmanda along with the Jivas ( conscious entities) in the suspended state in His belly (little belly though)! So the MulaPrakriti is in suspended state of Brahmanda or with the modern words we can call it the "the original dimensionless mass" and the "forms" are also fixed ( 8400000) and the jiva is 'given' a particular form in the progress status of his journey towards "moksha"!

These 8400000 forms are materials forms and Vaishnava schools also says, the Jiva has its original Rupa (form) svaRupa and that is what is gained after the Vraja bath! ( after the linga Deha is broken - the last material form)

[Viraja]

Thank you, Grames ji. Much appreciated.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

. From sound sky was born. From sky, water was born. From water, Fire was born. From Fire, earth was born. All these 5 'panchabhutas' did have consciousness of their own (or so I understand). The body of humans and other living entities which is but a combination of these panchabhutas, therefore had consciousness first before form.

This is my understanding and I stand corrected, if any of my above assumptions is wrong.

I offer this just so we are avoiding mixing apples and oranges.

If we choose to deal with sound then we're talking the 5 tanmātra-s. Yet if we then talk of sky and water ( ākāśa and jala) we have moved over to the mahābhuta-s.
There is a slight difference, and thought it was worth mentioning.

iti śivaṁ