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Thread: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

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    God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Namaste members.

    I would like to get feedback from members with regards to this:


    Found this interesting line in Brahma Sutra Bhasya today.

    पत्युरसामञ्जस्यात्


    पत्युः असामञ्जस्यात्


    Meaning: For the Lord there can be no creatorship for that leads to incongruity.


    Commentary by Adi Shankara:

    For the Lord that is to say for God there can be no causality towards the universe by becoming( a mere) superintendent over Nature and souls.

    Why?

    On account of incongruity.

    What is that incongruity?

    For a Lord who creates the various creatures by dividing them into grades of inferiority,mediocrity and superiority will be open like ourselves to the charges of likes,dislikes etc..so that He will cease to be God
    .


    What I would like to discuss with members is it seems clear from this statement that God is not a mere superintendent and does not get involved with gradation because that would lead to incongruity.

    In fact the commentary goes further by saying that: The Incongruity arises even from that admission that God is a special type of Purusha(Soul) for that Purusha is admitted to be indifferent to everything.

    Now how does this actually match with Purusha Shuktam verse 13 which says this:




    Text Thirteen

    brahmanosya mukhamasit
    bahu rajanyah kritaha
    uru tadasya yadvaishyaha
    padhyagam shudro ajayata

    From His face (or the mouth) came the brahmanas. From His two arms came the rajanya (the kshatriyas). From His two thighs came the vaishyas. From His two feet came the shudras.




    So if God is not supposed to be even a special Purusha and He is not a Superintendent that gets involves in gradation of any kind and supposedly indifferent towards everything....how come verse 13 of Purusha Suktam cites gradation of humans arising from the Supreme Purusha?






    Hoping inputs from members.



    Just to add to avoid any sort of misunderstanding with regards to Purusha Shuktam.


    Its Four Varnas in the Purusha Shuktam..for any numbering to have taken place that means there is a criterion based on some form of gradation.

    Again.. Gradation need not mean or denote Superiority or Inferiority.

    Because if there is no gradation there is only ONE.

    Hope I am clear.
    Last edited by renuka; 24 July 2014 at 02:22 AM.

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    hello,

    Which particular verse's commentary do you have?

    The problem of why different people are born into different circumstances is considered here in the Brahmasutras.

    The quick summary on that is:

    Every creature is born into the environment based on its own inherent tendencies acquired due to the actions/beliefs of a prior life. This past is beginningless, and hence the question of why God "created" ex nihilo in the first place is resolved, because there is no "first" place or "first" beginning that God authored.

    That is, there is no first point of time. Time/universe/selves are beginningless. It is the upadhis (tatastha lakshanas - defenition per accidens) that identify individuals as brahmins, kshatriyas, etc.
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 July 2014 at 10:39 AM.

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Which particular verse's commentary do you have?

    The problem of why different people are born into different circumstances is considered here in the Brahmasutras.

    The quick summary on that is:

    Every creature is born into the environment based on its own inherent tendencies acquired due to the actions/beliefs of a prior life. This past is beginningless, and hence the question of why God "created" ex nihilo in the first place is resolved, because there is no "first" place or "first" beginning that God authored.

    That is, there is no first point of time. Time/universe/selves are beginningless. It is the upadhis (tatastha lakshanas - defenition per accidens) that identify individuals as brahmins, kshatriyas, etc.
    Namaste,


    Its Chapter 2 section 2 topic 7 of Brahma Sutra Bashya with commentary of Adi Shankara.

    Agreed with what you wrote..so technically God does not get 'involve' with gradation of any kind and as you said its based on inherent tendencies acquired by past karmic data base.

    Fair enough..so with this it should put to rest that God did not "create" the Varnas in any ascending or descending order in the technical sense...so who decided the ascending and descending gradation in terms of eligibility to study the Vedas? Because a Sudra is prohibited from studying Vedas.Who decided that?

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Agreed with what you wrote..so technically God does not get 'involve'...
    What do you mean by "technically" here?

    Fair enough..so with this it should put to rest that God did not "create" the Varnas in any ascending or descending order in the technical sense
    Again, what do you mean by "technical sense" here?

    ...so who decided the ascending and descending gradation in terms of eligibility to study the Vedas? Because a Sudra is prohibited from studying Vedas.Who decided that?
    Good question. Could you provide any sruthi reference for such restrictions/prohibitions?
    Last edited by yajvan; 24 July 2014 at 10:40 AM.

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    What do you mean by "technically" here?



    Again, what do you mean by "technical sense" here?






    Good question. Could you provide any sruthi reference for such restrictions/prohibitions?

    Namaste,

    Technically in the sense since the Brahma Sutra says that God does not get involved in any forms of gradation so that means God did not "create" Varnas in any ascending or descending order even though these 4 varnas emerged from the Supreme Person.

    The same Brahma Sutra says that Sudras are not permitted to study Vedas.

    It comes under the chapter Pseudo Sudra cos the opponent was debating with the Vedantin that Raikva addressed King Janashruti as 'O'Sudra" before imparting too him the knowledge about the Ultimate Reality.

    So the opponent says to the Vedantin "If a Sudra is not permitted or competent for the study of the higher truth and Vedas etc than how come a Sudra was imparted the knowledge from Raikva?

    Then some explanation comes that the King Janashruti is not a Sudra but a Kshatriya but the Sudra word used here is to denote his grief state of mind abhidudruve sucam which is termed Sudra but not in the real sense..hence the title of the chapter as Pseudo Sudra.

    Then the Brahmasutra quotes the smirtis which says that a Sudra that hears the Vedas lac and lead should be poured into his ears..if he utters the Vedas his tongue should be cut off and if he commits the Vedas to memory his body should be cut into pieces.

    So there seems to be prohibition only from the Smirtis and not from the Vedas.

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Hi.,

    Looks like the quest here is to figure out why the "lower" caste is not allowed to study veda! We should ask few questions and think, digest and also try to understand with out prejudices...

    1. Who said God did not create the Varna? He very clearly states in BG that He is the one who created the varnashrama

    catur-varnyam maya srstam
    guna-karma-vibhagasah
    tasya kartaram api mam
    viddhy akartaram avyayam BG 4.13

    According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.

    The confusion is due to the "Advaitic" thought which is unnatural to the BS from the very beginning itself. So, get a better translation for that Sutra for clearing your doubt!

    2. Since, He has created, the Purusha Sukta is also very clear.... but again it should not be 'ranked' or graded as the Suktam is not talking about Higher or Lower as God must be understood as "partless" and His head is non-different from His feet. Knowing that, we should ask where this higher lower came from apart from our 'personal' agenda or selfish thoughts lacking divine progress and divine enjoyment as the goals

    3. Again, who stopped the Sudra Varna from living the VarnAshrama?

    niyatam kuru karma tvam
    karma jyayo hy akarmanah
    sarira-yatrapi ca te
    na prasiddhyed akarmanah BG 3.8

    Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work.


    No where Sudra's are prohibited from living the VarnAshrama life but Sudra's duties are not same as a Kshatriya or Vaisya or Brahmana! We don't question why a Sudra is not allowed to be a Kshatriya because we are always questioning the intellectuals!

    Remember, Sudra is not a birth Varna at least as per the SD practice before Muslim & British rules in India. It is even more unethical and insult to the SD equating the present day "Castes" in to the class called "Sudra". If you have money and power, you can literally do anything and everything in the present day system and even stop the waiting bhaktas for hrs to get your privileged darshan of lord. ( Are they Sudras or out class people? You ask and judge for yourself)

    Knowing the Varna as not a birth identification, the right understanding of Manu's system will be then clear. Again, unless the Soul is differentiated from the Mayic Body, there is no scope for understanding the Varna System. Now, how about understanding the Varna as due to two identifiers... One is the varna of the Guna that comes as gift of Karma in terms of body, birth in the family, association with Sadhus etc. The second one being the Varna of the Jiva itself where the natural tendencies are inclined towards taking up certain vocation and excelling in that. ( Giving up either one of these identifiers leads to all these political problems and also philosophical inconsistencies. Even greek philosophers were very much confidant of natural tendencies of individuals and grooming them with their natural tendicies were secret to their success and plato is one example ).

    So, if the vocational occupation of a jiva is not of "Brahamana" due to i) Jiva's Guna and the result of his/her karma ii) jiva's on svaBhava, why would you force such to perform the duties of a Brahamana? Naturally such jiva will not excel or make any progress taking up such duties. A Sudra is no where any lower or a Brahamana is no where any higher in the realm of Lord as all are equal and Lord has "Sama Darshana" which is unquestionable. Even a Brahmana who is spiritually situated has to have the Lakshna of "Sama Darshana"!

    So, why are we thinking everyone is qualified to study vedas when we do lack interest, time, fundamental knowledge to master anything beyond our own curriculum topics? Its rarest of the rare that an engineering student studies medicine and then gets employed as a rocket scientist! Its just that, our selfish desire are reflecting on Vedas as its short coming and also wrong understanding of Vedas is also WRONG! But, we have bigger ego and prejudice and we want the Vedas to fit in to our desire and wishful taste and state!

    Hare Krshna!
    Last edited by grames; 24 July 2014 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Added translations!

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    hari o
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Hi.,


    catur-varnyam maya srstam
    guna-karma-vibhagasah
    tasya kartaram api mam
    viddhy akartaram avyayam BG 4.13

    niyatam kuru karma tvam
    karma jyayo hy akarmanah
    sarira-yatrapi ca te
    na prasiddhyed akarmanah BG 3.8
    please provide the translations¹... other wise these are just words and hieroglyphs on a page.


    iti śiva


    1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=13039
    guidelines offered here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2550
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Hi.,



    No where Sudra's are prohibited from living the VarnAshrama life but Sudra's duties are not same as a Kshatriya or Vaisya or Brahmana! We don't question why a Sudra is not allowed to be a Kshatriya because we are always questioning the intellectuals!

    Remember, Sudra is not a birth Varna at least as per the SD practice before Muslim & British rules in India. It is even more unethical and insult to the SD equating the present day "Castes" in to the class called "Sudra".


    Hare Krshna!
    Namaste gramesji
    I hope by "thinking without prejudice" you dont mean "thinking ignoring the truth" and "thinking closing the mind"
    If sudra isnt a varna by birth may i know why ekalavya and karna were disqualified?
    Also going by varnashrama system everyone is a sudra in kaliyuga. So why do i see some cults having sanyyasis? because sanyyasa is banned in kaliyuga too?
    why do some people pick what they feel is convenient and disregard the rest?

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Namaste.,

    I think you are packed with tons of questions and also with enormous amount of frustration.

    Karna was a born Kshatriya but was able to take the "Kshatriya" duty (as he is naturally one) and excelled in it - Kula is his outer shell but his svaBhava is of a Kshatriya! (But he was not raised by a Kshatriya is the truth and the same Karna in fact did lie about his kula to gain the confidence of ParashuRama - thus became a Sudra in his living but admitted that lie as his nature is Kshatriya)

    Ekalavya is born Kshatriya ( prince of Nishada and if you want to know the story of Nishada please google it). Dronacharya refused to teach Ekalavya not because he is low born but because he was a hater of the Lord, who as ParasuRama is Drona's own Guru and Drona is known for his guru bhakthi! ( The popular story describe the rejection episode with face value but not the details - dig little deeper and these will be visible). Another reason is that, he did not identify himself as a prince and when Drona was teaching the princes of Hastinapur, someone as ordinary as ekalavya will not get admission (as much as how a PM son require special protection and attention etc. being in any school along with citizens). In fact, what Drona was teaching is the archary of DevAstra and a normal citizen who is not a Brahamana or Kshatriya is not eligible to study those (for same reasons of qualification based on natural tendency). Later part of MahaBharatha gives out details of who Ekalavya was fighting with and utilized his learnt skills (though drona taught the astra vidya after taking guruDakshina rendering his thumb to loose stiffness when utilizing any devAstra). So, the hater of Lord does not belong to any varnAshrama class and incidentally Ekalavya is identified as a demon ( at least as per vaishnava faith) and killed by Lord Krshna!

    Everyone who takes birth in KaliYug are Sudra and this must be accepted! But, of course consider the mercy of Lord and do understand with out frustration that, there are still Genuine divine beings who are sent to this place by Lord for our well being. I am not talking about Baba's, magicians, Ananda's etc. but i do see the sanyasins who gave up their material life from the age of 8 or 16 and holding the AstaMata of Udupi. Look upon the Saraswati Thakura Shri Prapupada who took sanyasa as per the instruction of his guru and who are the beneficiary? Why are you looking at the failed cases who were already failed and did not utilize their chances to progress? Why are you not looking at those who in fact progressed and lived a life that is unparalleled looking at their background and life style?

    Just one drop for you to taste.... read everything in this link http://www.artofspirituallife.com/

    Make sure your frustration is due to your quest for being right and not because you want your faith and belief as the only right!

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: God is not a Mere Superintendent.

    Namaste grames

    I think you are packed with tons of questions and also with enormous amount of frustration.
    ____________________________________________________________
    You "think" im frustrated just as how you "think" i should accept the flat earth as foretold by your line of "thought"


    his kula to gain the confidence of ParashuRama - thus became a Sudra in his living but admitted that lie as his nature is Kshatriya)
    ___________________________________________________________

    For starters whatever you said makes no sense because if just for one lie Karna becomes a shudra,, all kauravas, bhima and pandavas should become shudras. Am sure you dont have any idea that bhima did boast a lot of lies that he would kill all kauravas at one go which he didnt. and other pandavas did lie too and it is obvious the story that you tell me is a self supplication to your own line of thought and a frustrated attempt to justify it.




    Dronacharya refused to teach Ekalavya not because he is low born but because he was a hater of the Lord, who as ParasuRama is Drona's own Guru and Drona is known for his guru bhakthi! ( The popular story describe the rejection episode with face value but not the details - dig little deeper and these will be visible). Another reason is that, he did not identify himself as a prince and when Drona was teaching the princes of Hastinapur, someone as ordinary as ekalavya will not get admission (as much as how a PM son require special protection and attention etc. being in any school along with citizens). In fact, what Drona was teaching is the archary of DevAstra and a normal citizen who is not a Brahamana or Kshatriya is not eligible to study those (for same reasons of qualification based on natural tendency). Later part of MahaBharatha gives out details of who Ekalavya was fighting with and utilized his learnt skills (though drona taught the astra vidya after taking guruDakshina rendering his thumb to loose stiffness when utilizing any devAstra). So, the hater of Lord does not belong to any varnAshrama class and incidentally Ekalavya is identified as a demon ( at least as per vaishnava faith) and killed by Lord Krshna!
    ______________________________________________________

    How stupid is this argument bringing "lord " into every picture saying drona refused ekalavya as he was against lord, when he himself sought the side of kauravas, As usual i cant expect anything from a particular line of thought or rather a line of what is not thought..



    But, of course consider the mercy of Lord and do understand with out frustration that, there are still Genuine divine beings who are sent to this place by Lord for our well being. I am not talking about Baba's, magicians, Ananda's etc. but i do see the sanyasins who gave up their material life from the age of 8 or 16 and holding the AstaMata of Udupi. Look upon the Saraswati Thakura Shri Prapupada who took sanyasa as per the instruction of his guru and who are the beneficiary? Why are you looking at the failed cases who were already failed and did not utilize their chances to progress? Why are you not looking at those who in fact progressed and lived a life that is unparalleled looking at their background and life style?
    ____________________________________________________
    So you mean to say since i believe in a sarasvati thakur who i didnot see or met but because someone tells me good things about him like how they tell me good things about a flat earth or a distant moon i should forgive his 1000000000000 evil disciples sounds a good deal
    and you will send you kid to a school with 0.000000000000000000000000001 success rate because you are more concerned about that one successful kid than the 1000000000000000000000000000000 failures.. You are "thinking" indeed




    Just one drop for you to taste.... read everything in this link http://www.artofspirituallife.com/
    ________________________________________________
    I say thats an adieu to hypocrisy because it only glorifies its master whilst concealing the reality about his anti science anti feminine and anti equality stances,. Id be happy if the author would be honest and take the side of truth and not give what his readers want to hear.


    Make sure your frustration is due to your quest for being right and not because you want your faith and belief as the only right!
    _________________________
    That applies to you not me my friend You want me to accept that the earth is flat not me it has nothing to do with my belief or yours but what is actually right and true
    Last edited by ganeshamylord; 24 July 2014 at 02:28 PM.

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