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Thread: Two Eternal Entities

  1. #11
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Hari Bol!

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Amrut.,

    Eternal dependency can also mean, both are existing eternally but one is dependent on another! ( Existence does not put any limitation on dependency and that dependency is/can be anAdi as well - eternal dependency)

    No where we understand the Jiva as created.... its wrong notion of some people! Jiva is anAdi as well as much as the dependency on Ishwara at least in the "Theistic" schools!

    Hare Krshna!
    Dandavats Grames,

    So Jiva and Ishwara are there from the beginning?

    So all Jiva's where in the Brahma-Jyoti? And then we chose between side of dedication or exploitation and came to our respective areas, right?

    Thank you,

    Jai Sri Radhe-Syam!
    "Hare Krisha Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare" ¬ The Glorious Mahamantra. Chant this 108 times a day and keep Samsara away

  2. #12
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by caitanya View Post
    Pranams ,

    Thank you All for your deliberations.

    @BrahmaJijnaasa ji : Well...As I heard the statement about the dependability of Jiva on Bhagwaan ,this thought sprang up . How can something which depends on another entity be eternal . I am finding it difficult to explain . I will try.May be we need to understand first as to what of Jiva is dependent on Bhagwaaan . Can you tell me ? What makes us say that Jiva is dependent ?
    Actually it's quite easy to understand that the jiva soul is dependent on the Lord.
    The Lord created this whole world and He maintains this whole world and the living beings (jivas) in it supplying them with everything they need for life.
    In the scriptures there are quite explicit statements about all this. Here is an example, it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.13:

    nityo nityānāṃ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṃ yo vidadhāti kāmān

    "He (The Supreme Lord) is the supreme eternal among all eternals and the supreme conscious entity among all conscious entities, who fulfills everyone's desires and needs."

    In this verse living beings (jivas) are called "nityānāṃ" which means "eternals" and The Supreme Lord (paramatma) is called "nityo" which means "One eternal". Thus we see that eternal difference between the two souls -- jiva and paramatma -- is established in Shruti scriptures, and we also see that jiva souls are subordinate to the Lord because their existence depends on Him: "who fulfills everyone's desires and needs", ie He maintains the living beings supplying them with everything they need for life.

    This is just one example from the scriptures where we can see that both, jiva souls and paramatma (the Lord), are eternal and that jiva souls are subordinate to the Lord because their existence is dependent on Him.

    Here's another example from the Bhagavad gita 7.7:

    "O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."

    Here Lord Krishna says "Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread", which means that He maintains everything because everything rests upon Him. Suppose the Lord suddenly decides not to maintain everything that exists. What would happen? Everything would collapse. From this it can be seen that everything is dependent on Him.
    See above example "Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread". What would happen if the thread breaks? All the pearls would collapse. So all the pearls are dependent on the thread. Similarly everything is dependent on the Lord for He is like the thread on which everything rests.
    Is there anything that does not rest on the Lord? Is there anything that is not dependent on Him?


    regards

  3. #13
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste All

    thank you so much for clarification and explanation,

    @SBM @BJ ji and @grames ji (and others in the thread)

    Hari Hari Hari Bol!
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

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  4. #14

    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Pranams,

    Thanks SBMji.


    My question is where was the created "I" when only Creator "I" existed?


    Jai Shri Krishna.

  5. #15
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by Samraat Bhismadeva Maurya
    I had thought that Jiva's came from the Brahma Jyoti? And that Jiva's are constantly being created?
    Jiva soul is eternal.
    Eternal -- that which does not have a beginning and end in time.
    Jiva souls have never been created because they existed from the infinite past!
    See my post in this thread as a reply to caitanya in which I explained using the example from the scripture, Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.13 (nityo nityānāṃ cetanaś cetanānām ...) that both - living beings (jivas) as well as The Supreme Lord - are eternal.
    The same fact is repeated in the Bhagavad gita 15.7 where the living beings (jivas) are called sanātanaḥ which means "eternal": jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (See a word for word translation for this verse at the BBT vedabase).

    Quote Originally Posted by Samraat Bhismadeva Maurya
    So Jiva and Ishwara are there from the beginning?

    So all Jiva's where in the Brahma-Jyoti? And then we chose between side of dedication or exploitation and came to our respective areas, right?
    No, originally we all come from Vaikuntha.
    We had a discussion on this topic in the old thread starting from post #61 and forward: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...t=11407&page=7


    regards

  6. #16

    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Pranams Brahma_JIjnasaji,

    Thanks for the detailed reply . You said "and we also see that jiva souls are subordinate to the Lord because their existence depends on Him " .

    Now Lord does not create jiva as you mentioned , likewise it could not destroy jiva as well. This means there is something that Lord cannnot do . Isnt this strange that Lord is helpless as far as creating and destroying Jiva is concerned . So If Lord cannot create or destroy Jiva . How is he dependent on him for his existence . Jiva, as far as I understand, is individual soul . Nature of jiva is sat-chit-ananda . Is it actually this nature that is dependent on Lord? Do we mean this when we say Jiva is dependent on lord ? But then, these qualities are also inherent and eternal in Jiva . They cannot be created or destroyed .Am I right ?

    Then we are left with needs of Jiva i.e; his body etc. May be , this is where the dependence lies.

    Please share your views.


    Jai Shri Krishna .

  7. #17
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste
    Quote Originally Posted by caitanya View Post
    Now Lord does not create jiva as you mentioned , likewise it could not destroy jiva as well. This means there is something that Lord cannnot do . Isnt this strange that Lord is helpless as far as creating and destroying Jiva is concerned .
    This is not considered to be a deficiency in the Lord.

    How is he dependent on him for his existence . Jiva, as far as I understand, is individual soul . Nature of jiva is sat-chit-ananda . Is it actually this nature that is dependent on Lord? Do we mean this when we say Jiva is dependent on lord ? But then, these qualities are also inherent and eternal in Jiva . They cannot be created or destroyed .Am I right ?

    Then we are left with needs of Jiva i.e; his body etc. May be , this is where the dependence lies.

    Please share your views.
    Everyone and everything is dependent on the Lord. Remember I quoted a verse from the Bhagavad gita 7.7? It says "Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." Jiva's nature is also dependent on the Lord, it's sat cit ananda because jiva is a part of the Lord who is sat cit ananda Brahman, and thus a jiva is also a tiny sat cit ananda part of sat cit ananda Brahman. Yes, these qualities are inherent and eternal in jiva soul because jiva soul is eternal soul. This is confirmed in the scriptures, I quoted in this thread.

    Everyone and everything is dependent on the Lord. Thus the Lord created this world, earth, water, air, sun over our heads, food, etc. So we are dependent on Him because of all that.


    regards

  8. #18
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Quote Originally Posted by caitanya View Post
    @Wundermonk ji : How was the Blue of Lotus when it was not Blue ?
    Hi,

    It is not clear to me why this question should arise.

    I wrote:

    Assume for the moment that this "blue lotus" has been eternally existing
    That is, there was no point in time in the past when this lotus was NOT blue.

    In any case, the point is, as I mentioned, the concept of ontological dependence. There are many things that could be eternally existing and have eternally existing properties that are dependent on the underlying substance.

    To provide another example, the Nyaya-Vaiseshikha consider that atoms are eternal. Atoms are the material cause (more technically inherent cause) of any complex combination. Now, one of the properties of each atom is its *distinctness*. Technically, this is called, viseshana. Now, if each atom did NOT have a viseshana, there would be no way to differentiate one from the other.

    So, if a multiplicity of entities are admitted in one's ontology to have been eternally existing, the property of "distinctness" of each one of the entities should also be admitted.

    This distinctness is necessarily *dependent* on the entity that this distinctness qualifies.

    I am not sure where exactly the problem is.

  9. #19
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Dear

    Ishwara, Jada and Jiva are always eternal and this is the philosophy of all the Vaishnava traditions! ( TriVidhya).

    There is no origin to eternal existence - that is an oxymoron question! ( Google what Oxymoron is) - we call it simply Anadi!

    Brahmajyothi, this is not origin or source of Jiva - For Gaudiyas, this is also a status and place for certain Jivas which liberate with out seeking personal association of Lord!

    ( Another question in this thread is, lord cannot destroy Jiva - This is not true... Lord is capable of doing so but He does not! It is His promise as well that He won't and imagine His karuna here!)

    Hare Krshna!

  10. #20

    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    As the sun rays are dependent on the sun, and is an energy of the sun - so the jiva is one of the eternal energies of the Lord.

    Hare krishna

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