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Thread: Two Eternal Entities

  1. #21
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Quote Originally Posted by caitanya View Post
    Pranams ,

    As far as I understand ISKCON philosophy , Bhagvan and Jiva are two eternally existing entities . But Jiva is dependent on Bhagvan . How can something which is dependent be eternal ? Either they are one or there is no dependence . Please make me understand .


    Jai Shree Krishna
    The dependence is in the sense that the jiva's very existence is dependent on the ontological support of Ishvara. Ishvara is the Antaryamin who pervades the jiva and supports it, like a skeleton supports the human body. Remove the skeleton, the body collapses. Remove God, and the jiva cannot exist.
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  2. #22
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear


    ( Another question in this thread is, lord cannot destroy Jiva - This is not true... Lord is capable of doing so but He does not! It is His promise as well that He won't and imagine His karuna here!)

    Hare Krshna!
    HARE KRISHNA!

    Just curious, where does the Lord promises this that he will not destroy any Jivas.... Does the same apply to matter ?

  3. #23
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    lord cannot destroy Jiva - This is not true... Lord is capable of doing so but He does not! It is His promise as well that He won't and imagine His karuna here!)

    Hare Krshna!
    Hello, enlighten us where did Krishna say like this.

  4. #24
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste Grames,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Ishwara, Jada and Jiva are always eternal and this is the philosophy of all the Vaishnava traditions! ( TriVidhya).
    That means Jada and Jiva are not created by Ishvara. Did they create themselves ? Moreover, it would also mean that Ishvara is neither origin nor end of all beings ... otherwise their being "eternal" doesn't hold good !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #25
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Dear devotee.,

    Did you really ask this question?
    Jada and Jive can be eternal - even with out getting created by the Brahman! Its only not possible with your school of thought but, nothing is lost if jada and jiva are understood as eternal entities.

    Ishwara - is never said to be origin of Jiva or Jada - Rather Vaishnava schools believes that, Ishwara, Jiva and Jada are related and the former being completely independent and later two being TOTALLY dependent! Since, the dependent entities draws every possible character and features etc from the Ishwara, one school says that

    1. There is no difference on the special case - but they are not same objectively - The Advaitam is from the angle of the capability that is gained through the Brahman by His Grace - Still Brahman alone is Brahman and Jiva and Jada are what they are. VA
    2. There is difference between Ishwara, Jiva and Jada - The five fold differences are eternal - no matter what, they remain different - This is sufficient to understand the Vedic idea and reality - The school of TattvaVada
    3. There is similarity and also difference simultaneously - As long as you don't separate and see ishwara from its dependant entities - dvaitadvaita
    4. There is no difference between Ishwara, jiva and Jada - all are categorically same in essence - not objectively again. - The SuddhAdvaita
    5. There is inconceivable similarity and difference simultaneously - between Ishwara, jiva and jada - Acintya BedhAbedha Tattva - Gaudiyas

    all of them are walking same though with different philosophical background and none of them deny the eternal reality of Jiva or Jada!

    Ishwara is the end - the Abode of eternal joy! But not becoming Him or imitating Him is the way! and to be just with Him is itself the End!

    Hare Krshna!

  6. #26
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste Grames,

    Welcome back !

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Jada and Jive can be eternal - even with out getting created by the Brahman! Its only not possible with your school of thought but, nothing is lost if jada and jiva are understood as eternal entities.
    When I am trying to understand from Vaishnava's line of thinking, I think you can avoid such statements like. "with your school of thought". For my school of thought, you try to understand from your school of thought and that is the problem and you want to create further problem by infusing "my school of thought into your school of thought" !

    Ishwara - is never said to be origin of Jiva or Jada - Rather Vaishnava schools believes that, Ishwara, Jiva and Jada are related and the former being completely independent and later two being TOTALLY dependent! Since, the dependent entities draws every possible character and features etc from the Ishwara, one school says that

    1. There is no difference on the special case - but they are not same objectively - The Advaitam is from the angle of the capability that is gained through the Brahman by His Grace - Still Brahman alone is Brahman and Jiva and Jada are what they are. VA
    2. There is difference between Ishwara, Jiva and Jada - The five fold differences are eternal - no matter what, they remain different - This is sufficient to understand the Vedic idea and reality - The school of TattvaVada
    3. There is similarity and also difference simultaneously - As long as you don't separate and see ishwara from its dependant entities - dvaitadvaita
    4. There is no difference between Ishwara, jiva and Jada - all are categorically same in essence - not objectively again. - The SuddhAdvaita
    5. There is inconceivable similarity and difference simultaneously - between Ishwara, jiva and jada - Acintya BedhAbedha Tattva - Gaudiyas

    all of them are walking same though with different philosophical background and none of them deny the eternal reality of Jiva or Jada!

    Ishwara is the end - the Abode of eternal joy! But not becoming Him or imitating Him is the way! and to be just with Him is itself the End!
    Thanks, dear ! However, please refer to my questions above. I am unable to figure out answer to those questions in your above reply. Can you elaborate ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #27
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Dear Devotee.,

    Namaste! I sometimes assume people to have ability to distill or understand the answer by themselves from an elaborated message. It does't work always good. So, answers to your questions..

    1. Jiva and Jada are eternal - never been created or destroyed
    2. Ishwara is the end - the Abode of eternal joy! But not becoming Him or imitating Him is the way! and to be just with Him is itself the End! Ishwara is not their origin either! They are different - by their own nature! and thus exists always ( as 'sat')

    Hope the confusion gets cleared with the above answers!

    Hare Krshna

  8. #28
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    Re: Two Eternal Entities

    Namaste Grames,

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Devotee.,

    Namaste! I sometimes assume people to have ability to distill or understand the answer by themselves from an elaborated message. It does't work always good.
    Please don't get angry ! Sometimes you have to explain things mercifully to dull-headed people like me.

    1. Jiva and Jada are eternal - never been created or destroyed
    2. Ishwara is the end - the Abode of eternal joy! But not becoming Him or imitating Him is the way! and to be just with Him is itself the End! Ishwara is not their origin either! They are different - by their own nature! and thus exists always ( as 'sat')
    So, Jada and Jiva are eternal and were never created nor destroyed. And Ishvara is not their origin. They are different from each other always.

    Now, you have also said that this is what all Vaishnava schools subscribe to. I would like to make a little correction here. Vaishnavas of Digambar AkhArA (and most probably Nirmohi and Nirvani too) don't subscribe to this view. You can check and tell me if I am right or wrong.

    I am curious whether the above assertion finds any support from our scriptures or Vaishnava Acharyas like Ramnujacharya and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Can you quote any authority for stating so ? I would accept quotes from Shruti/Smriti or statements from Ramanujacharya/Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as authority.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 27 March 2015 at 12:01 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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