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Thread: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

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    Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Namaste,

    There is a main difference between Ramavatara and Krishnavatara - in Ramavatara, god was a complete human, devoid of any superhuman powers/prowess. Whereas we see in Krishnavatara, Shri Krishna did not lack in any superhuman/godly powers.

    Given the above, I recently started wondering what made Shri Rama during his avatara accept Shri Hanuman as his messenger? Normally in wordly life we see anyone with powers and traits superior to ours, we respect him/her as our superior. Though bhagwan Shri Rama was fully endowed with meritorious traits, still he was ordinary human during his avatara, whereas Hanumanji possessed 8-great Siddhis (such as 'lagima' and 'garima'), a complete control of his senses/brahmacharya, invincibility and immortality ('Chiranjeevi') and had received his education from none other than Surya deva. He could even fly!

    One can also recall the story that is narrated of how Hanumanji saves Shri Ram and Laxman from Mahiravana's palace while they were kidnapped. Hanumanji discusses a plan to save the princes with goddess Durga (to whom Mahiravana plans to give them slaughtered as an offering), as per the plan, becomes 'transparent' and slays Mahiravana when he bends down in front of Durga devi to show Rama and Laxman how to bow down. So we see Shri Hanuman even had the power to become invisible!

    So with all these powers and gifted nature, how did Shri Ram accept Hanumanji as just a messenger.

    I am interested to know if Shri Ram at any time was told he was an avatara of god. Also if there is any interesting conversation Shri Hanuman had with Shri Ram during their introduction which allowed Shri Rama to accept Hanumanji as his messenger... is something I would like to know.

    Thank you very much.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Namaste,

    I just want to make sure I am understood properly. Shri Rama is my ishta and I love him very, very much. Speaking of his prowess, I am well aware of the time when his single arrow pierced through several sal trees and then went flying past in the sky to travel many miles before finally hitting the ocean. And of the time when he single-handedly killed Kara and Dhooshana and their entire army. And the time when he broke Shiva's Dhanush effortlessly at Janaka's court... of the time when he defeated the mighty Parasurama, and of the time when at the touch of the mere feet of Rama, Ahalya attained mukti.

    But it still makes me wonder whenever I see the duo - Ram and Hanumanji, why is it that Hanumanji decided to be a messenger and a servant of Shri Ram (and Ram approved of this) when Hanumanji is an embodiment of perfected spiritual mastery - there is nothing yet left to accomplish for him spiritually - and yet he has chosen to remain a bhakta forever... Why?
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  3. #3

    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Namaste.

    In my opinion the adventures of Rama and Hanuman are the lila of God.

    So, when God descends as an avatara, even when He doesn't display all His powers through that incarnation, He always have knowledge about His true nature as God.

    So, both Rama and Hanuman were always conscious of each others' nature and of themselves as divine beings.

    When Lord Rama starts his Lila as a human, he only appears to be deluded by Maya so we can relate to Him as our rolemodel. The same applies to Lord Hanuman.

    Pranams.

  4. #4

    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Namaste Viraja

    1. ShriRAm knew Himself well.

    Let us suppose for a moment He did not. Even so,

    2. RAm and LakshmaN were princes of AyodhyA - Kings of a nation
    3. HanumAn (be it by lIlA) is a vAnar who lived in the forest. Even if ParmeshwarI LeelA (divine pastime) "follows the norm", the citizens and forest dwellers and vAnars obviously have tremendous respect, loyalty and devotion to the king, especially such a peaceful, loving large-hearted, kind and generous King.

    4. You are totally ignoring Hanuman's bhakti ras - love in servitude, dAsya bhAv towards Shri RAm. It is not about ashTa-siddhI (8 perfections) et al. It is about bhAv, ras, karuNA.

    Larger than Hanuman's ashTa siddhi are the Divine Qualities of Shri RAm that attracts HanumAn to Him like a magnet. Hanuman approaches RAm in dAsya bhAv only. He has heard a lot about the Lord while growing up and now looks forward to meeting Him. Then he does at last meet Him and the prem (divine love) that flows is too overwhelming.

    The Lord accepts the devotional sentiment of the devotee, and not spoil it by saying "Oh you are so great, you can't be My messenger.

    SiyAvar RAmchandra ki jay
    pavan-suta hanuman ki jay
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  6. #6

    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBt0zQ1eZf8#t=264

    Shri RAmachandra kRpAlu bhaja mana...
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Quote Originally Posted by ameyAtmA View Post
    4. You are totally ignoring Hanuman's bhakti ras - love in servitude, dAsya bhAv towards Shri RAm. It is not about ashTa-siddhI (8 perfections) et al. It is about bhAv, ras, karuNA.

    Larger than Hanuman's ashTa siddhi are the Divine Qualities of Shri RAm that attracts HanumAn to Him like a magnet. Hanuman approaches RAm in dAsya bhAv only. He has heard a lot about the Lord while growing up and now looks forward to meeting Him. Then he does at last meet Him and the prem (divine love) that flows is too overwhelming.

    The Lord accepts the devotional sentiment of the devotee, and not spoil it by saying "Oh you are so great, you can't be My messenger.

    SiyAvar RAmchandra ki jay
    pavan-suta hanuman ki jay
    Thank you, amEyAtmA ji, for this wonderful write-up! (I had intended to bring out this kind of bhakti-ras of Hanumanji, your reply brings out the same).

    In my opinion the adventures of Rama and Hanuman are the lila of God.

    So, when God descends as an avatara, even when He doesn't display all His powers through that incarnation, He always have knowledge about His true nature as God.
    thank you, Ekam ji, I understand now.
    Last edited by Viraja; 02 August 2014 at 06:43 AM.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Namaste,

    Rama was maryAdA puruSottam and hence he stayed within human limits. If he exhibited all kalA-s or abilities, then he would be a living God or say full manifestation. then he could not kill rAvaNa, who had a boon that no deva would be able to kill him. thats why rAma didnt had a chariot or better flying chariot and indradeva offered him his own chariot.

    rAma in yoga VAsisTa and in rama gItA says he is supreme brahman. nAma rAmAyaNa is available. the words start with suddha brahma parAtpara rAma, kAlAtmaka parameSvara rAma ...

    If I remember correctly, rAma accepted him as God when vibhiSaNa asked why he accepted him though he was his enemy's brother. Her rama replies, ' I am not human, I am God and whomsoever comes to my refuge, no matter with whatever intentions, I always accept him/her'. I need to find source of this incidence.

    AdhyAtma rAmAyaNa AR), a part of brahmANDa purANa, is very good in content. It shows spiritual aspect of rAmAyaNa, but it is more popular among advaitins. ramA gItA is a part of AR.

    Hanuman valued rAma nAma more than anything else, even more than his own body.

    As said by other members, it is just a lIlA. One always does not have to be the invincible and complete in all respect. Else Vishu would not have to incarnate on earth and simply throw in sudarshan chakra and all evil will be destroyed in twinkling of an eye. Vishnu by just mere will can induce bhakti and grant moksha to all of us. But then why does he take avatar? Everything is possible in a flash, then why all these pain, the suffering? It is lIlA. Even mAtA sItA was questioned of her faithfulness and purity. ramA had to renounce her and she had to leave her family, husband, and everything though she was pregnant. Society will keep raising questions, as it is expert in fault finding. Best is to ignore them.

    All avatars are fully potent and we should not distinguish between them, just on base of morality, outward behaviour, siddhi-s, accomplishments, for it is not in the capacity of human mind to judge and analyze the supreme Godhead. Lets just stay in our human limits. Time is passing by. It is moving fast. Best is to engage in bhakti and not let us disturb with such questions (this is not for you virAja di, but in general).

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    All avatars are fully potent and we should not distinguish between them, just on base of morality, outward behaviour, siddhi-s, accomplishments, for it is not in the capacity of human mind to judge and analyze the supreme Godhead. Lets just stay in our human limits. Time is passing by. It is moving fast. Best is to engage in bhakti and not let us disturb with such questions (this is not for you virAja di, but in general).

    Hari OM
    Right, that is! Sound advice, thank you...

    (I have been practicing sincere bhakti towards my ishta Sri Rama, but since I have tremendous amount of respect for Shri Hanuman, who I view to be equal to Shri Rama, I always wondered about this dAsya-bhAvA with Sri Rama...).

    Thanks and regards.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Ramavatara - What had been Shri Rama's perception of himself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Right, that is! Sound advice, thank you...

    (I have been practicing sincere bhakti towards my ishta Sri Rama, but since I have tremendous amount of respect for Shri Hanuman, who I view to be equal to Shri Rama, I always wondered about this dAsya-bhAvA with Sri Rama...).

    Thanks and regards.
    Namaste,

    That bhAva is for our benefit only .

    Sri Ramakrishna says, when Rama asked Hanuman, how do you see me, Hanuman replied

    As a person, I am your servant and you are my Lord
    As a jiva, I am part and you are full (I am part of you)
    But He Rama!, from Jnana-dristi [1], I am you are you are me. Both are not different.

    [1] Jnana-drishti or GYAna driShTi is nothing but tatva-GYana or knowledge of Self or Brahman. GYAna driShTi is different from divya-drishti which are special divine eyes given by devatA-s, which give special ability to see beyond the 3rd dimension into higher subtle worlds like Heaven.

    dAsa-bhAva is the most safest bhAva and is good for beginner.

    Monkey represents 'mind'. Our is monkey mind. It cannot stay in one place even for short time. Since Hanuman was able to master his mind and his senses and always remember Rama, Hanuman can also calm our agitated, hyper-active mind and can prepare us to chant Rama nama and sing his glories.

    Hanuman always valued Rama nama more than himself or his siddhi-s. What matter is what you value and not what others value. Other may value powers of hanuman, but Hanuman ji always preferred to be a maun-bhakta, who would silently come, uninvited (do not even need an invitation, AvAhan or spiritual, ritual process of calling a devatA) wherever Rama nama and his glories are sung, wherever Ramayana or Ramacharitmanas is recited.

    While we are blinded by his super-human deeds, Hanuman ji never cares about them but only cares to chant Rama nama.

    Dasa bhava is the first step towards bhakti. Hanuman ji represent this bhAva. So it is Hanuman ji who actually initiates us into bhakti. Hanuman ji is the first support (AdhAra) that one takes while walking on spiritual path. That is why, I think, Hanuman ji is chiranjivi.

    Perhaps, Hanuman ji can surely be worshiped independently, as he is blessed by Rama, Sita Mata and all devata-s like Shanidev, suryadev.

    Jai Bajarang Bali
    Jai Shri Rama
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

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