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Thread: The highest ideal for human life

  1. #11
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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    Namaste.,

    Such definition then require universal understanding and agreement on what is "Human". Isn't wise if one such universal definition is already there and we spend time and energy to understand that and "Agree" to it?

    The definition of Human is available in the form of what is his/her birth purpose and thus the duties - Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha! The final emancipation can be possible only if the individual's gain the details of what is "Dharma", "Artha" and Kama and how they practice these to be eligible for the ultimate gift of Moksha! Such is the "Highest Goal of Human life".

    Disagreement with out facts is the root cause and the power behind not able to know the "universal definition" is your own karma! When everyone has their own idea of what is "Human", we do take advantage of it to our personal interests and that is not "Human" as per the universal definition of "Sanatana Dharma"!

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Namaste,

    The Highest Ideal of Human Life is being Human...which is easier said than done.
    I hear what you say and if I may I'd would like to take the opportunity of word-smithing what you have said to a slightly different point of view.

    To lose one's Self to a form is being human; To live one's life as one's own Self is a human being. A human being it's essential (sāraḥ¹) natural Self.

    iti śivaṁ

    1. sāraḥ - the substance or essence or marrow or cream or heart or essential part of anything ; sārat sāram or 'the very best'.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Namaste,

    The Highest Ideal of Human Life is being Human...which is easier said than done.
    Dear Renuka ji,

    I only kept quiet (after reading your post above) because isn't it said 'To err is human'? (So the highest ideal is 'to avoid being the erring human' is it not?).
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    hariḥ oṁ
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    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    To lose one's Self to a form is being human; To live one's life as one's own Self is a human being. A human being it's essential (sāraḥ¹) natural Self.


    1. sāraḥ - the substance or essence or marrow or cream or heart or essential part of anything ; sārat sāram or 'the very best'.
    What is this losing one's Self to a form mean ? It means that the awareness of Self is lost to the human condition of only being 'me'. This 'me' is this small constrained ego-centric human form that is bound by height, width , depth, birth and death (time).
    Yet to live one's life as Self ( which is our real nature) is to live Being in its fullness ... it is now the shoe on the other foot - it is the human being Self.
    Then one is no longer annoyed with birth/death , ego driven things of life. One is now living their true dignity of this stainless level of Being.
    This is the core and essence ( goal ) of all of our āgama-s & śāstra-s which fulfills the intent of sanātana dharma .

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15
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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    Dear Yajavan Ji.,

    Your message here even after one explanation is very confusing honestly. . I feel so because of the play of words here ie human, being and then the newly introduced Self ( with Capital S).

    We cannot be "Human" and "Being" at the same time - as per your explanation and we can either be Human loosing the "Self" or "Self" loosing the Human! ( Which is your ultimate idea of the message - No Human but Being - situated as Self -if my peanut tiny brain made the right understanding). I believe, the question is "Highest Ideal for "Human" Life" and not sure how can a suggestion or explanation that, "Giving up" that "Human" itself can be highest ideal?? A prasad cannot be the mode of conduct itself - cos its a result and here the question is regarding the conduct isn't?

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Yajavan Ji.,

    Your message here even after one explanation is very confusing honestly. . I feel so because of the play of words here ie human, being and then the newly introduced Self ( with Capital S).

    We cannot be "Human" and "Being" at the same time - as per your explanation and we can either be Human loosing the "Self" or "Self" loosing the Human! ( Which is your ultimate idea of the message - No Human but Being - situated as Self -if my peanut tiny brain made the right understanding). I believe, the question is "Highest Ideal for "Human" Life" and not sure how can a suggestion or explanation that, "Giving up" that "Human" itself can be highest ideal?? A prasad cannot be the mode of conduct itself - cos its a result and here the question is regarding the conduct isn't?

    Hare Krshna!
    I am happy for your note... it tells me that you have seriously engaged the idea that was offered.
    Let me offer this point of view. It is the human part of us that ~ gets in the way~ of the highest ideal. We are That already. It is like the sun shining brightly all the time on all parts of the world ( the Supreme). Yet in some parts of the world clouds are there and a person thinks the sun is not out ( ignorance). The sun does not know night , where can there be darkness for the sun ?

    Like that, within the human condition the Supreme shines - it is not fully appreciated as one is caught up in the ego condition of experiencing 'me-ness' all the time. Every thing is referenced back to this small framework of 'me-ness'.
    So what occurs ?- Being is there all the time and the human part takes front stage ( me-ness); then one comes to the re-recognition of who he/she really is and the human goes to the background and Being takes front stage. My play on words put 'Being' human in the back, then human 'Being' in the front.

    This is the highest level - it does not have to be achieved, for the wise tell us if it is achieved then it can be lost once again. It is not a 'transaction' like buying milk. Being ( Supreme) permeates every thing, how then can one achieve it if it is everywhere? This would be folly.
    It is no different then breaking an empty pot and saying ' I have released the space in side to join with the other space out side'... space cannot be contained even tough we think we're doing it. It is the space that allows everything to exist, and not the other way around. Like that, it is the Supreme that allows all things to exist. It is this recognition of this that returns us back to the ideal state.

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 August 2014 at 12:47 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17
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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post


    to live one's life as Self ( which is our real nature) is to live Being in its fullness ...
    yajvan, I still need to get a sense of this Being...

    One way to think of this Being is to think of it as presence.
    • In english, it's presence or pre+ sense. Meaning prior to our awareness pouring out of our senses; hence facing inwards.
    • In saṃskṛt it's upasthāna – presence; nearness
    • In hindi , upasthiti – presence , standing near ( implying near to one’s own Being)
    you have 'to be' before anything else can be...your sense of presence is really fundamental to anything thing else that has to follow - śrī nisargadatta maharāj

    This is so fundamental many miss this point. The state of Being must be there, but since our attention is outward we miss this simple fact. It tends to confound our intelligence . So, the wise use examples...

    They say think of this presence like a movie screen. Before any of the pictures can be shown, a screen on which it appears must be present. This presence is like that screen - fundamental to the movie that occurs on it. Yet the screen is never affected by the dancing light that is on it.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by grames
    Dear Yajavan Ji.,

    Your message here even after one explanation is very confusing honestly. . I feel so because of the play of words here ie human, being and then the newly introduced Self ( with Capital S).

    We cannot be "Human" and "Being" at the same time - as per your explanation and we can either be Human loosing the "Self" or "Self" loosing the Human! ( Which is your ultimate idea of the message - No Human but Being - situated as Self -if my peanut tiny brain made the right understanding). I believe, the question is "Highest Ideal for "Human" Life" and not sure how can a suggestion or explanation that, "Giving up" that "Human" itself can be highest ideal?? A prasad cannot be the mode of conduct itself - cos its a result and here the question is regarding the conduct isn't?

    Hare Krshna
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    What is this losing one's Self to a form mean ? It means that the awareness of Self is lost to the human condition of only being 'me'. This 'me' is this small constrained ego-centric human form that is bound by height, width , depth, birth and death (time).
    Yet to live one's life as Self ( which is our real nature) is to live Being in its fullness ... it is now the shoe on the other foot - it is the human being Self.
    Then one is no longer annoyed with birth/death , ego driven things of life. One is now living their true dignity of this stainless level of Being.
    This is the core and essence ( goal ) of all of our āgama-s & śāstra-s which fulfills the intent of sanātana dharma .
    ... ...

    Like that, within the human condition the Supreme shines - it is not fully appreciated as one is caught up in the ego condition of experiencing 'me-ness' all the time. Every thing is referenced back to this small framework of 'me-ness'.
    So what occurs ?- Being is there all the time and the human part takes front stage ( me-ness); then one comes to the re-recognition of who he/she really is and the human goes to the background and Being takes front stage. My play on words put 'Being' human in the back, then human 'Being' in the front.
    I think Yajvan made good point here.
    I remember that in the scriptures we have many examples that speak about it. Here are some typical examples:

    asāv aham mamaivaite
    dehe cāsyānvayādiṣu
    sneha-pāśair nibadhnāti
    bhavān sarvam idaḿ jagat

    asau -- this; aham -- I; mama -- mine; eva -- indeed; ete -- these; dehe -- in connection with one's body; ca -- and; asya -- of it; anvaya-ādiṣu — and in connection with progeny and other related things; sneha -- of affection; pāśaiḥ -- with the ropes; nibadhnāti -- tie up; bhavān -- You; sarvam -- all; idam -- this; jagat -- world

    You keep this whole world bound up by the ropes of affection, and thus when people consider their material bodies, they think, "This is me," and when they consider their progeny and other relations, they think, "These are mine." (Bhagavatam 10.85.17)

    It is interesting to note here that the way you think about yourself in terms of "This is me" and "These are mine" is condemned here in this verse. People who think of themselves in terms of "This is me" and "These are mine" are "bound up by the ropes of affection" as it is said in this verse. Obviously these people are not established in the self.

    Here are some more examples:


    regards

  9. #19
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    Re: The highest ideal for human life

    Namaste

    "Simply because I chanted the holy name of the Lord in the association of devotees, my heart is now becoming purified. Therefore I shall not fall victim again to the false lures of material sense gratification. Now that I have become fixed in the Absolute Truth, henceforward I shall not identify myself with the body. I shall give up false conceptions of "I" and "mine" and fix my mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa." (Bhagavatam 6.2.38)

    "O my Lord, the people of the world are embarrassed by all material anxieties -- they are always afraid. They always try to protect wealth, body and friends, they are filled with lamentation and unlawful desires and paraphernalia, and they avariciously base their undertakings on the perishable conceptions of "my" and "mine." As long as they do not take shelter of Your safe lotus feet, they are full of such anxieties." (Bhagavatam 3.9.6)

    Actually this whole material existence, our life in this material world and thus our entanglement in karma and samsara (repeated births and deaths) is based on the idea of ​​"I am this body, and I am connected with everything which is connected with my body, like my family, possessions, nation, social status, etc." But when a person rejects the idea about himself in terms of "This is me" and "These are mine" and establish himself in the self, he becomes freed from material existence, entanglement in karma and samsara (repeated births and deaths).


    ----------
    Bhagavatam quotes see at BBT, vedabase


    regards

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