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Thread: Pre Sampradaya Bharata

  1. #1

    Pre Sampradaya Bharata

    Pranams,

    Recently I have been following one discussion on Pre Sampradaya in Bharata. The main theme of this thread is to say that Sampradaya was invented as a reaction to Islamic invasion.

    I am not well equipped to answer due to the complexity of the question and a very limited knowledge in Indian History and all the divisions of the diverse Hindu culture.

    I would welcome any comments. I will add in quote some of the details and points made of the discussion.

    Sectarianism happened as a Reaction to Invasion of Abrahamic creeds into India. Some time around Malik kafur's South Indian invasion. It was a Defensive mechanism to challenge of a Monothiest assault both at physical and social psychological levels. Hindu sampradayas which were Syncretic turned Monothiest and Sectarian as a Militant defense mechanism. This is one analytical view of this rise of Abrahamic Mimes in Syncretic Henotheistic Vedic hinduism. The term Hindu and Hinduism were so broad and encompassed all sampradayas of Shanmatha simplified by Sankara in Pre Islamic hindu society's faith-didnt lend easily to Montheist Casting. So they began asserting Separate Claims to being a Religion unto itself. Though both Shaivism and Vaishnavism had its Militant Monotheist Separatism- vaisnavism went further down that road under Gowdiyas.There were historical advantages of that also- Abrahamics couldnt easily juaxtapose its Truth Calims of One God versus Many false gods. ISKCON for all its negatives-obtained hordes of converts to a Vedic Godhead Bagavan Sri Krishna. For Spritual seekrs such Sectarianism is a hurdle for it leads to Egoism- of My Godism. That kind of bieng God's own people lead to downfall of Yadhavs. Krishna himslef says this explaining to Balarama why Yadhavs had to fall- and how he cannot help that. The idea that We are Special and our God is Special is a dangerous idea that leads to Asuric tendencies. Krsihna says "yadhavas if they were not destroyed-would have Over run the Planet". That is what we are witnessing today. In ISIS and Clash of Cross and Crescent. Judaism came from the Yadus' who emigrated West after Mahabharat wars and Fall of Dwaraka. Same My God -My Way or Highway faiths came from the Yudas-Yadhu-Jews.

    I asked this question for further clarification


    thanks for the very informative posts. I have a couple of questions. What was the structure in pre Islamic India of the different sects, and does the sampardayic traditions that arose after the Invasion of the Moghuls lose any of its sanatana dharma by dividing into sampradya's.
    To this reply

    As far as Ive checked they went by Post Bhudhist Shankara's Re organisation as Shanmatha, Vaishnavism was one among them. Meemsa was attached as Upa kriya and as service providers. They lost their eminence after Mandala Misra's admission of defeat. Tantra was independent, as many other Inexpedient traditions that still exist such as Naga sadhus, Sidha marga, Naths, mostly derivative of advaita but not necessarily so. Syncretic Sects later during Post Islamic invasion turned militant mimes of the challenging Monotheism. Hence the Anxiety of these Sectarians you can note of never failing to Stress the Supramacy of their diety and sub-sect. This is clearly something alien to Syncretic ancient Pagans of India. That must have made you wonder if Shankara was also a Reactionary Redaction. Yes. Illusionism and Other worldiness you can see that are alien to Conquestido spirit of early Aryan rishis who were martial mystics-very much seeking fresh lands and expansion and battles. Clearly the Revolt but in mould of World denying Bhdhism it had to survive and displace.

    I hope I can add this in case it helps my view clear. Iam not saying Exclusivism rose as an Influence. Iam saying Exclusivism sprang post Islamic as a Defense mechanism. Islam's challenge to Pagan India was a life and death struggle. It was at 3 major levels. 1. At Political level Power passed over from Brahaminical Patronage to Brahmin Genocidal overnight.. Islam knew by experience that eliminating Priestly class is paramount to their Emancipation from Darkness of Idolatry.2. Theology- Islam added dead weight of its Allah as Godhead without Peers or Other like him. The kafirs were after many 'lesser god' - Allahu Akbar doesnt mean he is greatest-but Greater! Greater than whom? the many that pagans worship (and false). 3. Society was facing attrition and almost collapsing as it obtained Converts mostly by force and rest by these factors and lure. The Defense manifested as what we see now today. Exclusivist Monlatry/Monotheistic? Sectarianism. Islam targeted brahmins so they first isolate them by Brahminidal genocide and take out hindusim. Vaishanivism responded by making everyone Brahmins. You can now understand how Iskcon turns everyone into shika sacred thread wearing brahmins. Islam had to kill all classes now to reach that Objective. 2. Iconoclasm- Vaishnavism encouraged house worship of Murtis and congergational upholding of idols ( since Big mandirs were gone and attracted the iconoclast ghazis) . centrality of Idols. etc. 3. Attrition- Vaishnavism began proseletysing! Hari hara buka were muslim lads. Founded Vijayanagara with Varaha flag- that is Pig- that is most abhorant to Islam. Samarth Ramadas founded Maratha empire. Chaitanya converted muslims back to hinduism. So the central doctrines of neo-vaishnavism can be clearly seen as existential responce to islamic assaults. This Defensive genius of hindu society modified the Syncretic loose hindusim that wouldnt have been able to match at all 3 levels the challenge. Now its become a problem by excessive preoccupation with what was actually a Defensive mechanism. thanks.


    They didnt lose any elements of sampradayas . For there werent any sampradayas really speaking- but say proto sampradayic elements- post invasion. Rather they were bolstered and some invented anew. What they surely lost was the catholicity, they ceased being eclectic.



    Any information shared will be very helpful. I have my own synopsis, but its philosophical and I can not bring in valid historical evidence.

    Ys

    Md
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 14 August 2014 at 09:09 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Pre Sampradaya Bharata

    Namaste Markadeya,

    Recently I have been following one discussion on Pre Sampradaya in Bharata. The main theme of this thread is to say that Sampradaya was invented as a reaction to Islamic invasion.
    I don't think there is a lot of scope in Hinduism for someone to invent something. I mean, basically it is discovery or rediscovery. So, in the context of Sampradaya-s we should understand that Hinduism underwent a "phase change" wherein the boundaries (among various sects) became more demarcated and formal.
    I am not well equipped to answer due to the complexity of the question and a very limited knowledge in Indian History and all the divisions of the diverse Hindu culture.
    No one today can claim to be an authority on Indian history. No one is in a privileged position in regard to the knowledge of the actual history of India. Political propaganda, low intellectual investment, plain ignorance, vested interests- all have contributed to this sorry state of affairs. (Typically, this is a familiar story about a country that is about to be geographically destroyed)

    In Vedic times, as suggested in the OP, the sects were more eclectic, if by that one means the religious landscape was even more richer, especially in the manner of a continuity weaving together all these sects: there were secret pathways that connected one sect to another, any sect to any other sect. Movement was possible within a matter of moments, instead of lifetimes.

    The Rsis were the discoverer, not inventors, of the ways and the sects. Later on, during foreign onslaught these very sects managed to develop defence mechanisms, even though the Rsis were long gone. So, how did this happen?

    This was because the Sampradaya-s were each based on Sanatana principles. Even there, for example, there is a fundamental difference between - say- the Vaishnavism of TamilNadu and the Vaishnavism of Bengal.


    KT
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

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    Re: Pre Sampradaya Bharata

    Namaste

    No disrespect, but this strikes me as total nonsense. Most Sampradayas trace back to as Hindu Devata or to the Devi. Such as back to Lord Brahma. Or to Parvati even, or to Dattatreya and so forth. To Surya.

  4. #4

    Re: Pre Sampradaya Bharata

    Pranams,

    Thank you Kalicharan Tuvij and Shivafan Prabhu's,

    I agree with both the comments and that is why I needed some clarification.

    Ys

    Md

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    Re: Pre Sampradaya Bharata

    Hari Bol!

    I thought Gaudiya Sampradaya traced back to Lord Brahma, also Shankara existed as Islam was colonising Arabia.

    Jai Sri Radhe-Syam!
    "Hare Krisha Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare" ¬ The Glorious Mahamantra. Chant this 108 times a day and keep Samsara away

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