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Thread: Karma and disease

  1. #21
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    Re: Karma and disease


    Namaste ale84 Ji,

    I would like to offer my interpretation of karma, reincarnation & sufferings of saints.

    First of all, Karma & reincarnation are not 'action-reaction' or 'deeds-punishment' cycles. Karma & reincarnation are in-effect an error correction / learning & progress system.

    Let us say I drive to work every day and there are many paths from my home to work. On day 1 , I take a route and find that I end up following a school bus. On day -2 , I either adjust the time or route , to avoid delays. Our karma-reincarnation cycle is similar. In this life if I hate a particular group , and if I find out that after I leave this body , this hate was holding me back to my final destination(moksha) , I may choose to be born in the group I hated in my previous life. Similarly if I am born in a very rich family and exited my life without any enriching experiences , I may choose to be born poor. How we choose our progress toward final destination may depend on the paths that are available to us to progress.

    This may be the main reason our sages have requested us to live a life , wherein we are not ruled by our emotions. By interpreting karma-reincarnation as tit-for-tat , we may lose the real meaning.

    Second part is this : Gnani's (realized beings) may not show much interest in their body. If a homeless man wins a million dollar lottery , he will throw away his shopping cart & cardboard mattress. Other homeless men might think that the lottery winner acted recklessly - if they didn’t realize he won the lottery. Gnani's position is similar. Once they get into the state of satchitananda (eternal bliss/joy) , rest of the worldly matter - including their own bodies become unimportant to them. Like you and me , they may not go to a doctor when they feel chest pain or headache. Musicians like Ozzy may go to a doctor and take full advantage of modern medicine to correct health issues as and when they arise.

    It is our lack of awareness of the gnani's blissful state that makes us think that they suffer illness the same way we do. Until we reach their stage , it is important that we lead a healthy life and give importance to the bodily wellbeing. After that, the entire paradigm shifts.

  2. #22
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    Re: Karma and disease

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    From post 18 above,

    Now back to this silly ball bouncing. When the ball bounces who can take owner ship ? the owner of the ball ? This ball cannot bounce without the manufacturing of the ball - so all who touched the ball in its making is involved. And what of the material ? From where did it come ? All those that manufactured the rubber. And what of the raw materrials? It comes from the environment. And Where did this environment come from ? The cosmos and all the actions that occurred to finally bring about an earth that could produce the ball, the person, the intent to bounce the ball and the person in the apartment below who gets agitated ( Which in fact is energy also that comes from all the food-stuffs created once again by the universe).

    So, who is the doer here ? Who takes full responsibility for the action ? How can it be seen as good or bad ? We (society) assign good and bad. That is why it is so practical to pursue realization. To exist the small-small thinking of good and bad assigned by society and do as the universe does without any thought that is required - then all the actions are in accord with all the laws of natural law.


    From post 20 above,
    Viśvakarman is the 'all doer' of this universe. Some call the principle architect. On each and every level of creation every law of nature , is orderly, structured and in perfect balance. This is the work of this creative intelligence which is inherent in Supreme Being. Who then is the final doer ? That from which karma comes and goes ?

    You see, many take ownership of something that does not belong to them. As if they had the ability to 'create' action. They only borrow at best this ability. People (paśu-s¹) are using someone else's power and is therefore a thief.


    So, where is the deeper meaning here ? For some this may cause some consternation , for others it will need to settle-in, and for the very few it will be an ahh-ha! moment ( It took me years to appreciate it, then one day ahh-ha! came ). Let me state it bluntly then offer some ideas to smooth out the jam on the bread!

    There is no specific cause for things to happen. We see things and wish to connect the dots back to the apparent scene of the crime ( or place the action originated) - the epicenter of the cause. We think we have it, just like in the bouncing ball example I mentioned above.
    Here is the pickle with any action. No action can take place without the universe first being what it is. The whole universe is involved in the action, all actions.
    We see and in many cases think we are the doer in total ( from beginning to end). This is not the full picture.

    This view is supported by śrī nisargadatta maharāj and ramaṅa mahaṛṣi. It is also found within the yogavasișțharāmāyaṇa (yoga-vasișțha-rāmāyaṇa) and is called out by an example i.e. kākatālīya¹ on many occasions in this book. The kākatālīya is the story of the crow and the palm tree. It goes like this:
    A crow alights (lands) on the top of a coconut palm tree. Upon its touch-down at the top, at that very moment, a ripe coconut detaches from its branch and falls to the ground. Two mutually exclusive events ( ~unrelated~) occur. Yet an observer views this event in the same space and time he resides in and sees a relationship, yet in truth there was none. That is, both events were independent of each other.


    Yet we are not finished here , as to leave the reader pondering without some additional information will be like the proverbial fish out of water scenario. We will take this up , with some reasonable objections in the next post.


    iti śivaṁ


    1. kākatālīya - kāka ( a crow) + tālī ( a tree) +ya (joining) : after the manner of the crow and the palm-fruit
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 August 2014 at 10:29 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #23
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    Re: Karma and disease

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    No action can take place without the universe first being what it is. The whole universe is involved in the action, all actions.
    What does this say ? It says if the universe did not act like it does, provide all the raw materials for all things, then no action could take place. That is, the ultimate authorship of anything must first start with the universe.
    But what of me yajvan ? I had a specific cause, no? without mother I could not have come to this existence.

    Think about it like this... any mother could have brought you, your specific mother was not necessarily required. But what was required for mother ? Every element , every molecule, all the particles that took billions of years to finally come to form mother from all parts of space.
    Who produced this grand symphony of everything, of this totality ? One can say no-one and I am fine with this, and others can say it was the Lord, and I too am fine with that. But one needs to appreciate it took all the this creative intelligence within the total universe to do this. Yet it does it by its nature. Everything that comes and goes is all within its rhythm.

    So, if one gets this, the beginning appreciation comes with one being an exponent of this grand creative intelligence as it works with and through various beings. It is when one is fully conscious of this, then one is the perfect exponent for this work. The 'me-ness' or smallness of being the human locked into thinking I am doing all this subsides ( or gets out of the way) and then the person comes completely aligned with the maestro . His or her notes in this grand symphony is at the complete disposal of the conductor ( maestro ). Your notes are his notes.





    Our āgama-s & śāstra-s (scriptures) talk of this wholeness. We see the harmony in nature if we just look. Nothing is left as waste, or extra spare parts, or as un-needed. This comes from the whole acting as a whole.


    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 25 August 2014 at 10:32 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #24
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    Re: Karma and disease

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    So, if one gets this, the beginning appreciation comes with one being an exponent of this grand creative intelligence as it works with and through various beings.
    Our āgama-s & śāstra-s (scriptures) talk of this wholeness. We see the harmony in nature if we just look. Nothing is left as waste, or extra spare parts, or as un-needed. This comes from the whole acting as a whole.
    What does one do with this insight/knowledge ? It all depends on one's predominant make up i.e. sattva, rajas, tamas.

    For some it brings insight, for others it provides new knowledge to consider and for others it passes over their heads.

    For the mischievous it is an excuse for not taking responsibility and finding another excuse that it rally wasn't 'me' doing this act. For the mature they see the full responsibility associated with this, and for others they may also become immersed in the highest level of appreciation of why things occur.

    In any case, one needs to re-think the impact and cause of karma (karman); what is the ~full picture~ and what parts are we making up , thinking that we are the final stop , the original cause of actions.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #25

    Re: Karma and disease

    well, i strongly believe that is what they must receive ( the fruit of pastlife ), although they can escape or manipulate, or cure himself.

    But they won't. Why ?

    Because , WHATEVER they do, WHATEVER their activites, there is reason behind it. The main reason offcourse is to TEACH us. So find the lessons behind it.

    There is also saints who have long life, also saints who go directly to the Land of God. But all of the saints, helath or sick, they said : Sickness is not the measurement of holiness.

    I also cant imagine how the peoples reaction if all Saints show to us they are not sick, always healthy. I think that will cause bad effect to the peoples. Not educating.

    OM. VAJRA. VISHNUYA. SVAHA
    OM. VAJRA. GARUDA. CALE CALE. HUM PHAT


    OM. AMOGHA VAIROCANA. MAHA-MUDRA. MANI PADMA JVALA PRAVARTTAYA. HUM

    Om Saha Nau-Avatu |
    Saha Nau Bhunaktu |
    Saha Viiryam Karava-Avahai |
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    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||


  6. #26
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    Re: Karma and disease

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by shian View Post
    well, i strongly believe that is what they must receive ( the fruit of pastlife ), although they can escape or manipulate, or cure himself.

    But they won't. Why ?

    Because , WHATEVER they do, WHATEVER their activites, there is reason behind it. The main reason offcourse is to TEACH us. So find the lessons behind it.

    There is also saints who have long life, also saints who go directly to the Land of God. But all of the saints, helath or sick, they said : Sickness is not the measurement of holiness.

    I also cant imagine how the peoples reaction if all Saints show to us they are not sick, always healthy. I think that will cause bad effect to the peoples. Not educating.
    I will assume 'they' = the saints/muni-s that are realized. If I am incorrect please adjust my comprehension.

    What one needs to appreciate is the saints do not see their bodies as themselves. They refer to their SELVES as themselves. The body acts within the field of the three guna-s. So they think 3 guna-s you take care of this body...I will keep to my Self.

    regarding teaching. Not all teach. Many choose not to do this and may do what ever pleases them. Some stay in silence ( ramaṅa mahaṛṣi remained silent for years on end; my teacher's guru remained in the forest for years on end). And - not all are prepared to teach or have the knack - so says abhinavaguta-ji. Yet no matter what they do, all of society benefits.


    Sick or not sick, long life or short ( note that ādi śaṅkara-ji was only only present for some 32 years), these are measurements from the human personal point of view. For them time, sickness, etc. are the constraints and annoyances of the human condition. By definition it is the raising of one's self by the SELF that these mundane things are no longer an issue - that is, the muni does not associate with these things i.e. get tied up in them.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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