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Thread: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

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    Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Namaste,

    I was thinking some time back that most Avatars of Lord Vishnu ended up "killing" Shiva Bhaktas for example Krishna killed Kamsa and Rama killed Ravana.Both Kamsa and Ravana were Shiva Bhaktas.

    Most evil tyrants were invariably Shiva Bhaktas.

    Why isn't there an evil tyrant Vishnu Bhakta?

    Even when it comes to death..Vishnu Bhaktas have Vishnu Dutas but all the rest have Yama Dutas.

    So my question is:

    1)Did the Avatars actually descend to save the world or Puranas were written to propagate Vishnu/Vaishnava school of thought.

    It seems too much of a co incidence that each tyrant King was invariably a Shiva Bhakta.

    Note: This thread is not to find fault with either Vishnu or Shiva but just to discuss why evil Kings were Shiva Bhaktas and no evil King was a Vishnu Bhakta.

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Namaste,

    I was thinking some time back that most Avatars of Lord Vishnu ended up "killing" Shiva Bhaktas for example Krishna killed Kamsa and Rama killed Ravana.Both Kamsa and Ravana were Shiva Bhaktas.

    Most evil tyrants were invariably Shiva Bhaktas.

    Why isn't there an evil tyrant Vishnu Bhakta?

    Even when it comes to death..Vishnu Bhaktas have Vishnu Dutas but all the rest have Yama Dutas.

    So my question is:

    1)Did the Avatars actually descend to save the world or Puranas were written to propagate Vishnu/Vaishnava school of thought.

    It seems too much of a co incidence that each tyrant King was invariably a Shiva Bhakta.

    Note: This thread is not to find fault with either Vishnu or Shiva but just to discuss why evil Kings were Shiva Bhaktas and no evil King was a Vishnu Bhakta.
    Namaste Ji,

    Huh?Do you know who is Narakasura's father?
    Well do you think Vaishnavas wrote this story also?


    It has got nothing to do with whether Sri Shiva's bhaktas are tyrants or not.It is just that they were asuras and happened to be Shiva's bhakats and also if you check the Puranas there are a number of evil characters who were devotees of Sri Brahma,Sri Indra,Devatas etc.Generally,the asuras are the archrivals of the Devatas,of whom Sri Maha Vishnu is one.Sri Vishnu is Upendra,the King of the Devatas Sri Indra's younger brother.I hope that will answer why the asuras generally weren't devoted to Sri Vishnu,who is forever on the Devatas side and so they had to approach other neutral gods.

    Edit:I think there are Shiva's dutas as well,I have heard of many Shiva Bhaktas who were taken to Kailasa Parvata by Shiva ganas.As a matter of fact there are many many other lokas not just Sri Vaikunta,Sri Parvata and Yamapuri.
    Last edited by Ram11; 20 August 2014 at 03:12 AM.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram116040 View Post
    Namaste Ji,

    Huh?Do you know who is Narakasura's father?
    Well do you think Vaishnavas wrote this story also?


    It has got nothing to do with whether Sri Shiva's bhaktas are tyrants or not.It is just that they were asuras and happened to be Shiva's bhakats and also if you check the Puranas there are a number of evil characters who were devotees of Sri Brahma,Sri Indra,Devatas etc.Generally,the asuras are the archrivals of the Devatas,of whom Sri Maha Vishnu is one.Sri Vishnu is Upendra,the King of the Devatas Sri Indra's younger brother.I hope that will answer why the asuras generally weren't devoted to Sri Vishnu,who is forever on the Devatas side and so they had to approach other neutral gods.

    Edit:I think there are Shiva's dutas as well,I have heard of many Shiva Bhaktas who were taken to Kailasa Parvata by Shiva ganas.As a matter of fact there are many many other lokas not just Sri Vaikunta,Sri Parvata and Yamapuri.
    Namaste,

    Since you brought up the topic of Narakasura..here is a different version to it by Sathya Sai Baba.

    http://www.ssso.net/Diwali/diwali.htm


    "Five thousands years ago, there were some planets (going round the earth). Some of these planets disappeared from time to time.

    There was one planet called Naraka, which used to go round the earth. In the course of their orbits, sometimes the moon and the Naraka planet used to get close to each other.


    At one time, the Naraka planet appeared to be approaching close to the earth.

    The inhabitants of the earth were filled with dread of the approaching catastrophe.
    They prayed to the Lord for averting the imminent disaster and saving them.

    At that stage, Sri Krishna used his extraordinary knowledge (Prajnaa) to destroy the planet.
    This extraordinary knowledge of Krishna was termed "Sathya". That is to say, Krishna destroyed the Naraka planet in association with "Sathya".

    The denizens of the world started celebrating that day with the lighting of lamps and adoring the Lord who saved them. That day of the Lord's triumph was celebrated as a festive occasion." Sai Baba. SS. 12/91. p. 327

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Namaste

    I think they are not tyrants because they are Shiva Bhaktas, rather they are Shiva bhaktas because Shiva is a god who accepts everyone, even asuras worship him. He is of more easy approach than Vishnu, so, Asuras in general worship him. He is the king of bhutas, pretas, and the lowest base of the society in general sees Him as a very compassionate God.

    Pranams

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Hello,

    This question gave me a giggle...because Ravana is not just some guy born for no reason.

    Who is Ravana? None other than Lord Vishnu most beloved gatekeeper?

    Much of the drama which goes on back then was instigated by the three life times of Jaya and Vijaya. From the abode of Lord Vishnu...and devoted servants of Him.

    All of this a play to show the lowest and highest soul on earth that there is a way...whatever your lot in life.

    Though, when asked...who of earthlings would be as full of prideful ego to claim they were high...and that another was lower? In reality, both birds bourn of the same cosmic Creator...dwelling upon the same tree.

    Without such beings, would there have been a need for a hero? Would we have the teaching moment Beloved Sri Krishna gave us from their appearance?

    Mahadeva and Lord Vishnu are Beloved to each other. The dramas that have occur here, are to help us learn...to strive for better.

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    Namaste,

    Since you brought up the topic of Narakasura..here is a different version to it by Sathya Sai Baba.

    http://www.ssso.net/Diwali/diwali.htm


    Namaste Ji,

    I don't know about this version and I will not believe it without proper references.

    I read that Sri Vishnu is Narakasura's father.If there is any other version in the puranas please quote the relevant passage from Purana, I'll check and answer.

    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Quote Originally Posted by renuka View Post
    1)Did the Avatars actually descend to save the world or Puranas were written to propagate Vishnu/Vaishnava school of thought.
    Dear Renuka ji,

    Vishnu is a preserver and in this role, he takes avatara from time to time to preserve the law and order when he sees them declining.

    Shri Rudra/Shiva is a destroyer and maybe his role is to that the evil traits such as greed and ahamkara get destroyed in aspirants?
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekam View Post
    Namaste

    I think they are not tyrants because they are Shiva Bhaktas, rather they are Shiva bhaktas because Shiva is a god who accepts everyone, even asuras worship him. He is of more easy approach than Vishnu, so, Asuras in general worship him. He is the king of bhutas, pretas, and the lowest base of the society in general sees Him as a very compassionate God.

    Pranams
    I think Ekam hit it right on the head, Shiva accepts bhaktas that may be bad people/asuras, it's not that they become that way because of worshiping Shiva.

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    Re: Avatars Vs Shiva Bhaktas

    Hello everyone,

    Renuka, point noted, good question... Could be true or false, who knows? nobody can timetravel and verify the following: "Did the Avatars actually descend to save the world or Puranas were written to propagate Vishnu/Vaishnava school of thought." But then again, avatars were not born to oppose Shiva: Why do people generally forget the son of Jamadagmi? He comes in the purans, the Ramayana and Mahabharata... He was actually the guru of prominent Kshatriyas of that time and also an ardent devotee of Shiva. So, by logic, looking at Parashurama, the avatar of Vishnu, who was a die-hard devotee of Shiva, one cannot timetravel, but still come to the logical conclusion that it is too much of a co-incidence, but probably a coincidence only, and avatars don't function to oppose devotees of Shiva. Just because they're devotees of Shiva, doesn't mean they're exempted from punishment and justice. Similarly, Vishnu wouldn't spare Vishnu bhaktas if they turn tyrannic or join the wrong side and be evil. To avoid any space to misconceptions, I'd like to add that just because, one calls himself Shiva bhakta, he doesn't become one, a true Shiva bhakta would be righteous, just as Shiva(Shiva = Dharmasthala Manjunatha = the Manjunatha of the place of Dharma/Justice/Righteousness) is righteous; and just because, one calls himself Vishnu bhakta, he doesn't become one, to be a true Vaishnava, one should be righteous, just as Ram and Krishna were in the itihasas... The point is, all are equal in the eyes of the devine, and even if that devine entity wants to go lenient on the sinners, things wouldn't be lenient because, the universe follows the principles of karma (Even if you escape Sanchita-past and Aagami-future karma by god's grace, you cannot escape the Prarabdha-present karma.)

    I found a pair of videos this incident could've lead to the fight between an avatar and a shiv bhakta or an avatar with another avatar or another avatar, but it didn't. Stories from Ramayan:

    part 1 of video from youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkInfTZrQ_I

    part 2 of video from youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAd7BoC6ujE

    the point is, just because someone says he's a shiva bhakta, doesn't become one. Even if he was a Shiv Bhakta, doesn't mean all Shiva Bhaktas are bad... Some does not equal all. Let's take an analogy: Just as the Indian government or P.M is not responsible for the crimes of citizens committed overseas (unless planned and executed by the government), and just as all Indians don't become criminals, just because some may be, similarly, you can't attribute the fault to the devine, just because some of his children err.

    And besides, people constantly bring up, Ravana worshipped Shiva, but forget not just Parashurama, even Rama worshipped Shiva, along with Surya. So, the fight was not an Avatar v/s Shaiva it wasn't Shaiva v/s Shaiva either, it was right v/s wrong. Besides, even Krishna worshipped Shiva and also fought false or demonic Shaivas.

    So, in defense of the Avatars, there's nothing personal between the Avatars and Shiva Bhaktas. In defense of true Vaishnavas(including those who believe Shiva isn't god and inferior), there's nothing personal between them and Shiva bhaktas, because they know: "Sarva Deva Namaskaram Keshavam pratih gacchati" all salutations are received by Keshava. But, all the problem is with the "extreme ones," they do want to propagate their thought by all means. By saying that avatars oppose Shaivas, you'd actually as a Shaiva lead yourself astray from the path of Dharma/righteousness by misinterpreting their intentions.

    At the end of the day, one truth stays still from the law of karma and/or ways of god/devine/universe:

    You do good, you receive good.
    You do bad, you receive bad.
    You do nothing, you receive nothing.
    You do it all, you'll get it all.


    Salutations to the great and noble son of Jamadagni..
    Jai Shree Raam..
    Aum Namah Shivaya...
    I don't know who I am, nor what I am.
    I don't know what I need to know.
    I don't know who you are, nor what you are.
    All I know is that you love me, Oh Sarvathma.
    Lead me on the righteous path, so that I may reach you.

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