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Thread: What does the Supreme really want?

  1. #1
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    Light What does the Supreme really want?

    Does the Supreme really want our offerings or our devotion?
    Does he really want us to spread our concept of 'the truth'?
    Maybe even defend it to the death?




    There is a thin line between want and need. If someone
    doesn't get what they want long enough then pretty soon
    they start to think that they 'need' it in order to maintain
    their mental equilibrium. Then when a person is frustrated
    enough by not getting what they want/need anger can
    arise as described in Bhagavad Gita 3:37

    The Supreme is our final abode and if he is not beyond
    want then how can we ever hope to transcend it?

    The consciousness of one who is beyond the gunas is
    one of detachment as explained in Bhagavad Gita 14:22-25.

    However, because of his benevolent nature, he accepts
    and appreciates our humble offerings even though he
    has no need or hankering for them. Was Sri Bhagavan really
    hankering for beaten rice or was he just ecstatic that his
    dear friend Sudama came to see him and was moved by
    his offering to him?

    Can not a billionaire be moved to tears upon receiving
    a gift made with his wife's own hands? Yes, but that
    doesn't mean that he needed or was hankering for
    that gift. It is the love that matters.

    Had Aum
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 27 August 2014 at 12:36 AM.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

  2. #2
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste,

    If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #3
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste,

    God helps those who help themselves and this is what he wants - people to help themselves. This does not mean people should not pray, rather the opposite - god wants people to pray in order to help themselves. I have read somewhere that prayers and other rituals purify our internal chakras and the channels through which Kundalini rises. God really wants people to be sadhakas so that they will do what it takes to purify their chakras and experience the bliss of Kundalini rising to higher realms, so that they will enjoy the bliss of detachment from bodily hankerings and can finally merge with him/her to achieve a birthless state.

    Thanks.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  4. #4

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,

    If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

    OM
    Namaste.

    I agree with this.

  5. #5
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,

    If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

    OM
    excellent....

    What is Supreme is the sum total of all things and of no things. What would be outside of this that would be needed or desired ?
    Only if the Supreme chose to play hide and seek with itself. So enters the human being who thinks it is limited in time, space, cause and creativity.
    The Supreme only then wakes-up to itself knowing Itself once again as this infinite wholeness.

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Dear Yajvan Ji.,

    If and only if we think the wanting is "Outside" of this as in your statement
    What is Supreme is the sum total of all things and of no things. What would be outside of this that would be needed or desired ?
    Its just one thought that assumes that happenings are "outside" brahman but major Vaishnava schools believe that, "All are happening due to Him, by Him, through Him and with in Him" - This is the beauty and also a science to understand the proper realization. He is inside all yet outside...He is the substratum and also the substance! He is the Karana and also Kartha! His desire is not different from Him and He is not desireless! His desire is not same as the Human Karmic desire! He has no needs but His very nature is action, karuna, saka etc.

    But again, its just another pov - From this vaishnava PoV, when He is ascribed with "desiring" or "wanting", His Supremacy is not challenged!

    With the pov presented here, there is no scope for any sort of "Supremacy" and the doubts are like, why the son of barren woman is only 1 feet tall.

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste

    I think grames made a nice point here from the Vaishnava point of view.

    Actually it is not true that the Supreme Lord does not want anything.
    He desires and does many things: He creates the world, maintains all the living beings, comes down to this material world from his eternal abode -- brahmaloka "the world of Brahman" (brahma - Brahman, loka - world) -- as avatara to carry out his pastimes (lilas) here and thus helps souls to develop bhakti towards Him, exchanging transcendental feelings with his devotees, ... etc.
    It must be that all this He wants to do because if He does not want to then He would not do all this things, right?

    When we say that the Supreme Lord does not want anything, ie that He is Desireless, what does it mean?
    Here is a verse from the Shruti about this:

    akāmō dhīrō amr̥taḥ svayambhū rasēna tr̥ptō na kutaś canōnaḥ
    tam ēva vidvān na bibhāya mr̥tyōr ātmānaṁ dhīram ajaraṁ yuvānam

    "Desireless, serene, immortal, Self-existent, contented with the essence, lacking nothing, is He. One has no fear of death who has known Him, the atman -- serene, ageless, youthful." (Atharva Veda 10.8.44)

    Here The Supreme Lord is described as "Desireless" and "lacking nothing"!
    He does not do anything in order to gain anything because He is described here as "lacking nothing" and therefore "Desireless". This, however, does not mean that He has no desires! In fact He has plenty of them. He has plenty of desires!


    regards

  8. #8
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~~
    namasté

    grames writes,

    If and only if we think the wanting is "Outside" of this as in your statement

    Its just one thought that assumes that happenings are "outside" brahman but major Vaishnava schools believe that, "All are happening due to Him, by Him, through Him and with in Him" - This is the beauty and also a science to understand the proper realization. He is inside all yet outside...He is the substratum and also the substance! He is the Karana and also Kartha!
    Yes, I see your point... from the point of view of kaśmir śaivism ( which I know we're in the vaiṣṇava folder) the supreme is viewed as wholeness or pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa ( fullness or a full vessel i.e. overflowing , supreme).
    So this suggests that if the Supreme is wholeness, fullness, what can be lacking ? What can be outside of this fullness ? By definition, if it is outside , then the Supreme is not the total fullness. Even the desires of humans reside within this fullness.

    Now that said, please note my offer is not in dis-agreement of anything you have offered. It is presented to compare-and-contrast notions or points of view.
    Hence as I view it, such is the name of viṣṇu from the root viṣ , 'all pervading ' and compliments the term śiva from the root śī , 'in whom all things lie'. This wholeness is none other then these two terms defining the Supreme's most infinite nature.

    Yet for me ( and me only) the notion of ~desire~ associated with the Supreme is one of semantics.

    iti śivaṁ

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #9

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by R Gitananda View Post
    Does the Supreme really want our offerings or our devotion?
    "Supreme" is a wrong word. Yajvan ji mentions "Wholeness" that is more aligned to Vedic use of the term, the great goddess Aditi and Her position; at the same time, though, I feel one shouldn't use the two terms alternatively.
    To sum up, it is a false question.

    Does he really want us to spread our concept of 'the truth'?
    Yes we should do that if we want to survive. "Goodness" is not what is required, it is "Truth".
    There is a correlation between "morality" and "intelligence": both mean "differentiating falsehood from truth".

    Maybe even defend it to the death?
    That is the Hero's destination, very desirable one. Death is just a start in some other place, after all. Plus, by doing this we help our posterity here on earth to survive/ progress better.

    The Supreme is our final abode and if he is not beyond
    want then how can we ever hope to transcend it?
    Again, this is a false question due to the use of a wrong word "Supreme".

    The consciousness of one who is beyond the gunas is
    one of detachment as explained in Bhagavad Gita 14:22-25.
    GuNa-s themselves transcend GuNa-s. Even "Sat-Chid-Ananda" represent "satva-rajas-tamas" at some level.

    Was Sri Bhagavan really hankering for beaten rice or was he just ecstatic that his
    dear friend Sudama came to see him and was moved by his offering to him?
    Now, this is a valid question (note the use of the word "Bhagavan"). And the answer is a most emphatic "Yes".

    Can not a billionaire be moved to tears upon receiving
    a gift made with his wife's own hands? Yes, but that
    doesn't mean that he needed or was hankering for
    that gift. It is the love that matters.
    Is some different brand of Āstika brewing there up in USA? I wonder, because I again see the word "Supreme", and not "Bhagavan", written all over it. Bhagavan leads the way by His own example of showing us the ways of Truth. He is among us, among the poor as a poor, the rich as a rich, He shows us our own potentiality, and this is very unlike sitting up there the pedestal and demanding "love" from His hapless, clueless, bhakta-s.

    Shri Ram,
    KT
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  10. #10
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Yajvan ji mentions "Wholeness" that is more aligned to Vedic use of the term
    Where will we find this notion of fullness called out ?

    bṛhadāraṇyakopaniṣad (bṛhadāraṇyaka-upaniṣad)¹ , chapter 5.1.1 called om kham brahma-brāhmaṇa. Also in the opening hymn of the isāvāsya upaniṣad we find the same hymn once again called out:

    oṁ pūrṇamadaḥ pūrṇamidaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇamudacyate |
    pūrṇasya pūrṇamādāya pūrṇamīvāvashiṣyate ||

    That is whole; this is whole;
    From that whole this whole came;
    From that whole, this whole removed,
    What remains is whole.

    Are there other places the notion of wholeness/ fullness is called out ? Yes, we find this notion ( with different words) used in the mālinīvijayottara tantra ; I will add the verse/hymn if there is interest.
    And another place ? Yes, this notion of pūrṇatā ( fullness) , bhūman, wholeness , can be found within the chāndogya upaniṣad.

    praṇām

    1. bṛhad+araṇyaka upaniṣad
    · bṛhad = bṛhat = lofty , high , tall , great , large , wide , vast , abundant; this is also another name for brahman
    · araṇyaka = a forest
    Some think then that the naming of the bṛhad+araṇyaka is that upaniṣad that was written in the forest. This may be mildly interesting but lacks an appreciation of the subtler values of the name. If it was a upaniṣad that was written in the forest why not just call it araṇyaka upaniṣad and leave it at that ?

    What is being offered is a few things in this name. That the knowledge is being offered is bṛhat - vast , lofty , great , large. It is a vast forest of knowledge. It also infers that, like a forest, it takes some navigation to get around, to find one's way. Hence another definition of bṛhat is 'brightly' and is considered the light to find one's way as it is brightly lit.

    Yet too this bṛhat is also of wholeness , of bhūman, because it is another name for brahman - fullness, wholeness itself. Hence from a forest perspective it is composed of all sorts of trees, shrubs, flowers, animals, but together there is the wholeness of the forest, bṛhat.

    There is also more implied to this name i.e. the forest dweller as the beneficiary of this wisdom, but will leave this for another time.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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