What does the Supreme really want?

[R Gitananda]

Namaste

Dear Marga mana das

I am curious as to what exactly Ganeshprasad said that you found offensive. Criticism of someone's opinion is not the same as criticism of the person himself. How can there be meaningful discussion on this forum if there can't be respectful disagreements?

Hari Aum

You glorify Sri Krishna - which is nice, but at the same time you critisize His Maha-Bhagavata devotee. That is not very wise. We are meant to please the Lord, and the most secure way to displease Him is to offend His dear devotees. The Lord is very tolerant on His own behalf, but He does not tolerate offences to His beloved devotees. ...

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

To clarify what is Brahman, what is brahmajyoti, and how it relates to Bhagavan, who states : brahmano hi pratishthāham (Bg. 14.27):

This brahmajyoti effulgence is described in detail in several mantras of the Mundaka Upanishad (2.2.10-12):

-----.

According to Manduka UP I read, the verses quoted are 2.2 9-11

9. In the highest golden sheath there is the Brahman without passions and without parts. That is pure, that is the light of lights, that is it which they know who know the Self.

10. The 2 sun does not thine there, nor the moon and the stars, nor these lightnings, and much less this fire. When he shines, everything shines after him; by his light all this is lighted 3.

11. That immortal Brahman is before, that Brahman is behind, that Brahman is right and left. It has gone forth below and above; Brahman alone is all this, it is the best.

This is the point, what you are presenting something that does not agree with what most commentators I have read.

It is abundantly clear even to a novice reader like me when it say what lies beyond the golden sheath is Aka Brahman, the one without a second, part less pure etc.

How then you can substitute with impersonal Brahman or Brahman effulgence for "Brahman" is beyond me, which is what you want us to believe in both the Gita and Manduka UP.


I will not want to comment on Brahmashmita, it's an obscure text only appeared in Chatanya maha prabhu time, no one except the Gaudia accepts its authority.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

You glorify Sri Krishna - which is nice, but at the same time you critisize His Maha-Bhagavata devotee. That is not very wise. We are meant to please the Lord, and the most secure way to displease Him is to offend His dear devotees. The Lord is very tolerant on His own behalf, but He does not tolerate offences to His beloved devotees.
-------

Hare Krishna.

You sound to me like an evangelical Christian,who would send me to hell simply for not accepting them.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Marga mana das]

Namaste

Dear Marga mana das

I am curious as to what exactly Ganeshprasad said that you found offensive. Criticism of someone's opinion is not the same as criticism of the person himself. How can there be meaningful discussion on this forum if there can't be respectful disagreements?

Hari Aum

Dear Gitananda ji

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is maybe the greatest soul who has walked on this planet for a long time. He was empowered to an amazing degree by Lord Krishna to establish sanatana-dharma all over the planet. His acts and achievements speak for themselves. Srila Prabhupada is Krishna's pure representative, and His only purpose is to bring as many conditioned souls as possible back to the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna. And that is exactly the same purpose for which the Lord Himself descends to this world and speaks the gita.

Ganeshprasad accuses Srila Prabhupada of the immoral, cynical and vulgar act of " streching the meaning to suit the doctrine, they all do it..." - thus trying to drag Him down to the level of charlatans.

Such an accusation is offensive, and it is certainly not pleasing to the Lord.


Now, Gitananda, I was hoping to get a response from you on my post #94:

-The Supreme being is sat-cit-ananda, and I agree that there is no meaning to asking why He is eternal, fully cognisant and blissful, but when it comes to activities - I can not accept that the Supreme conscious Being has no purpose to His activities, i.e. manifesting the material world, Himself appearing in it, giving the Vedas, speaking the gita etc. This all happens automatically?

Do you really mean the Lord undeliberately performs His activities?


Hare Krishna.

[Marga mana das]

Pranam





According to Manduka UP I read, the verses quoted are 2.2 9-11

9. In the highest golden sheath there is the Brahman without passions and without parts. That is pure, that is the light of lights, that is it which they know who know the Self.

10. The 2 sun does not thine there, nor the moon and the stars, nor these lightnings, and much less this fire. When he shines, everything shines after him; by his light all this is lighted 3.

11. That immortal Brahman is before, that Brahman is behind, that Brahman is right and left. It has gone forth below and above; Brahman alone is all this, it is the best.

This is the point, what you are presenting something that does not agree with what most commentators I have read.

It is abundantly clear even to a novice reader like me when it say what lies beyond the golden sheath is Aka Brahman, the one without a second, part less pure etc.

How then you can substitute with impersonal Brahman or Brahman effulgence for "Brahman" is beyond me, which is what you want us to believe in both the Gita and Manduka UP.




Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam

Sri Mundaka Upanisad 2.2.10, second line mentions Brahman: virajam brahma nishkalam and in the next line it is described as jyotisam jyotis - the light of lights. :

hiranamaye pare koshe
virajam brahma nishkalam
tac chubhram jyotisam jyotis
tad yad atma-vido viduh

hiranamaye-golden; pare-supreme; koshe-center; virajam-pure; brahma-Brahman; nishkalam-pure; tac-that; chubhram-effulgent; jyotisam-of lights; jyotih-the l;ight; tat-that; yat-what; atma-vidah-they who know thew self; viduh-know

In the Isopanishad it is clearly stated that the face (mukham) of the Lord is covered by hiranmayena - a golden effulgence.



hiranmayena -- by a golden effulgence; patrena -- by a dazzling covering; satyasya -- of the Supreme Truth; apihitam -- covered; mukham -- the face; tat -- that covering; tvam -- Yourself; pushan -- O sustainer; apavrinu -- kindly remove; satya -- pure; dharmaya -- unto the devotee; drishtaye -- for exhibiting.
TRANSLATION
O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.




-I will not want to comment on Brahmashmita, it's an obscure text only appeared in Chatanya maha prabhu time, no one except the Gaudia accepts its authority.


Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and if He accepts the Brahma-samhita - which He does, I am fine with it.


Sri Chaitanya is the Kali-yuga avatara, and He descended for the purpose of establishing the yuga dharma, which in this age is the chanting of Lord Krishna’s names.
Lord Chaitanya’s incarnation is mentioned and predicted in numerous scriptures. The following are some of the important references.


In the Atharva Veda (Purusha-bodini Upanishad) it is said:
saptame gaura-varna-vishnor ity anena sva-shaktya
caikyam etya prante pratar avatirya saha svaih sva-manum shikshayati
“In the seventh manvantara, the Supreme Lord will, accompanied by His own associates, descend in a golden form. He will teach the chanting of His own Holy Names.”


It is further stated in the Atharva Veda:
itotham krta sannyaso’vatarisyami sa-guno nirvedo
niskamo bhu-girvanas tira-atho’ lakanandayah kalau
catuh-sahasrabdhopari panca-sahasrabhyantare
gaura-varno dirghangah sarva-laksana-yukta isvara-
prarthito nija-rasasvado bhakta-rupo misrakhyo vidita-yogah syam
“The Supreme Lord Himself says: When between four thousand and five thousand years of Kali-yuga have passed, I will descend to the earth in a place by the Ganges’ shore. I will be a tall, saintly brahmana Devotee of the Lord, and have a golden complexion. I will be renounced and free from all desire. I will accept the order of renunciation (sannyasa). I will be a Devotee advanced in bhakti-yoga. I will chant the Holy Names of the Lord. I will taste the sweet mellows of My own devotional service. Only the great Devotees will understand Me.”


In the Sama Veda the Lord states:
tathaham krta sannyaso bhu-girvano ‘vatarisye
tire’lakanandayah punah punah isvara-prarthitah sa-
parivaro niralambo nirdhuteh kali-kalmasa-kavalita-
janavalambanaya
“To deliver the people devoured by the sins of Kali-yuga, I will, accompanied by My associates, descend to the earth in a place by the Ganges shore. I will be a brahmana avadhuta sannyasi. Again and again I will chant the Holy Names of the Lord.”


In the Krishna Upanishad it is stated:
sa eva bhagavan yuge turiye ‘pi brahma-kule jayamanah sarva upanishadah uddidirshuh sarvani dharma-shastrani vistarayishnuh sarvan api janan santarayishnuh sarvan api vaishnavan dharman vijrimbhayan sarvan api pashandan nicakhana
“In the Kali-yuga, Lord Krishna will appear in a brahmana’s family. He will teach the message of the Upanishads and the dharma-shastras. He will defeat the atheists and offenders and He will establish the truth of Vaishnava dharma.”


In the eleventh canto of Srimad Bhagavatam the following verse is found:
krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam
sangopangastra-parshadam
yajnaih sankirtana-prayair
yajanti hi su-medhasah
“In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead, who constantly sings the name of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons, and confidential companions.”


In the seventh canto of Srimad Bhagavatam is the following verse describing the Lord’s incarnations:
channah kalau yad abhava tri-yugo ‘tha sa tvam
“Because in Kali-yuga You appear in a covered incarnation, you are therefore known as Tri-yuga (one who appears in only three yugas).”


The incarnation of Sri Chaitanya is a hidden incarnation because He appears in the guise of His Devotee. This covered incarnation is confirmed in both the Adi Purana and the Narada Purana in the following verse:
aham eva dvija-shreshtho
nityam pracchanna-vigrahah
bhagavad-bhakta-rupena
lokam rakshami sarvada
“My true identity always concealed, I will assume the form of a brahmana Devotee of the Lord. In this form I will deliver the worlds.”


In the Garuda Purana the Lord Himself states:
kalina dahyamananam
paritranaya tanu-bhritam
janma prathama-sandhyayam
karishyami dvi jatishu
“To deliver the conditioned souls burning in the troubles of Kali-yuga, in the first sandhya of that age I will take birth among the brahmanas.”
aham purno bhavishyami
yuga-sandhau visheshatah
mayapure navadvipe
bhavishyami shaci-sutah
“In My original spiritual form, perfect and complete, I will become the son of Shachi-devi in Navadwipa Mayapura at the begining of Kali-yuga."


Sri Chaitanya was born in Mayapura, a subsection of the holy town of Navadwipa, to Shachi-devi in 1486 AD, aproximately 4,500 years after the beginning of the Kali-yuga.


Elsewhere in the Garuda Purana it is said:
kaleh prathama-sandhyayam
lakshmi-kanto bhavishyati
daru-brahma-samipa-sthah
sannyasi gaura-vigrahah
“In the first sandhya of Kali-yuga, the Lord will assume a golden form. First He will be the husband of Lakshmi, and then He will be a sannyasi who stays near Lord Jagannatha at Puri.”


In the Vayu Purana the Lord states:
paurnamasyam phalgunasya
phalguni-riksha-yogatah
bhavishye gaura-rupena
shaci-garbhe purandarat
“In the month of Phalguna, when the star phalguni is conjoined with the full moon, I will appear in a golden form begotten by Purandara in Shachi-devi’s womb.”


Sri Chaitanya’s father was known by the names Purandara Mishra and Jagannatha Mishra. Sri Chaitanya was born on the full moon day of the month of Phalguna.


In seven more puranas and several other scriptures He is predicted.


Hare Krishna.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Dear Gitananda ji

--

Ganeshprasad accuses Srila Prabhupada of the immoral, cynical and vulgar act of " streching the meaning to suit the doctrine, they all do it..." - thus trying to drag Him down to the level of charlatans.

Such an accusation is offensive, and it is certainly not pleasing to the Lord.

Hare Krishna.

Now, now get hold of your self, you are letting your imagination running wild, I have used no such words.
Be my guest, call me an offender, I don't expect any different from you, you guys speak flowery words, dupe the Hindus more ways then I can list here and as soon as you meet with opposition, you cry foul.

This is certainly not what the supreme want beside he neither takes punya or paap of anyone's action, that much I know, Krishna says in the Gita.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Believer]

Namaste Marga mana das,

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is maybe the greatest soul who has walked on this planet for a long time. He was empowered to an amazing degree by Lord Krishna to establish sanatana-dharma all over the planet.

I admire your passion, your enthusiasm, your bubbliness and your commitment to Swami Praphupad ji. However, it would be good to remember that Hinduism covers a wide spectrum of traditions and philosophies and there have been several rishis, sages, acharyas and gurus in Hinduism's long history. The followers of each guru consider their guru to be either 'the greatest soul who has walked on this planet', or an incarnation of the divine itself. With that in mind, one is free to hold his guru in the highest esteem, but must not argue with others about 'mine is better/bigger than yours'. It rips apart the fabric of Hinduism and does it great damage. I hope that is not what you would want to see, or are here to propagate. So, why not just 'chill out' and take a walk. If somebody says something that is not too flattering to your tradition, why not just walk away from it. By dueling, one only degrades oneself and brings disgrace to the person he holds in highest esteem - his guru. It is not an easy task; I too get sucked into a vortex of arguments every now and then. But we must learn to take a step back and remember that our aim is spiritual advancement and if others do it by following a guru other than ours, let it be. Let others grow in their own way, at their own pace. I hope you can bring back some balance to yourself and keep peace in the forum. That is 'What the Supreme really wants'.

Pranam.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Pranam

Sri Mundaka Upanisad 2.2.10, second line mentions Brahman: virajam brahma nishkalam and in the next line it is described as jyotisam jyotis - the light of lights. :

hiranamaye pare koshe
virajam brahma nishkalam
tac chubhram jyotisam jyotis
tad yad atma-vido viduh

hiranamaye-golden; pare-supreme; koshe-center; virajam-pure; brahma-Brahman; nishkalam-pure; tac-that; chubhram-effulgent; jyotisam-of lights; jyotih-the l;ight; tat-that; yat-what; atma-vidah-they who know thew self; viduh-know

I can understand your difficulty in accepting, what you call 'it' is for me Aka one without a second Brahman.
9. In the highest golden sheath there is the Brahman without passions and without parts. That is pure, that is the light of lights, that is it which they know who know the Self.
Brahman is part less,pure, purna off course it shines like Joyti, that was the point of contention in the first place, in BG verse --where does it say impersonal? I am afraid you have not convinced me and for that you accuse me of being offensive!!

In the Isopanishad it is clearly stated that the face (mukham) of the Lord is covered by hiranmayena - a golden effulgence.



hiranmayena -- by a golden effulgence; patrena -- by a dazzling covering; satyasya -- of the Supreme Truth; apihitam -- covered; mukham -- the face; tat -- that covering; tvam -- Yourself; pushan -- O sustainer; apavrinu -- kindly remove; satya -- pure; dharmaya -- unto the devotee; drishtaye -- for exhibiting.
TRANSLATION
O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.

Again I beg to differ on translation of the verse, hiramayena--of golden, patrena--vessel like disc
The next verse is important, puts a whole new meaning to the above verse but that is not my point.
my whole point is, neither effulgence or impersonal are words that substitute the word 'Brahman'

Jai Shree Krishna

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

my whole point is, neither effulgence or impersonal are words that substitute the word 'Brahman'

What, then, is the meaning of the brahmaṇo word in the Bhagavad gita 14.27, and what is the translation of that verse?


regards

[R Gitananda]

Dear Marga mana das ji

I think that it is only human for a person's opinions to be colored by their deeply held convictions and let us remember that the Gita said "every work is covered by some fault". However, if his use of the term 'stretch' is offensive to you then I hope that people avoid it when communicating with you. However the words "immoral, cynical, vulgar" and "charlatan" have been introduced by you and I think constitute unfair hyperbole on your part. Further, as there are GV militants, such language may inflame those 'defenders of the faith' and cause a danger to people whose intent was not to offend but only to share their deeply held opinions. As to your other question, I have only philosophical speculations (not scriptural proofs) so I will keep those to myself. I apologize for the delay.

Hari Aum

Dear Gitananda ji

Ganeshprasad accuses Srila Prabhupada of the immoral, cynical and vulgar act of " streching the meaning to suit the doctrine, they all do it..." - thus trying to drag Him down to the level of charlatans.

Such an accusation is offensive, and it is certainly not pleasing to the Lord. ...

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