What does the Supreme really want?

[R Gitananda]

Does the Supreme really want our offerings or our devotion?
Does he really want us to spread our concept of 'the truth'?
Maybe even defend it to the death?



There is a thin line between want and need. If someone
doesn't get what they want long enough then pretty soon
they start to think that they 'need' it in order to maintain
their mental equilibrium. Then when a person is frustrated
enough by not getting what they want/need anger can
arise as described in Bhagavad Gita 3:37

The Supreme is our final abode and if he is not beyond
want then how can we ever hope to transcend it?

The consciousness of one who is beyond the gunas is
one of detachment as explained in Bhagavad Gita 14:22-25.

However, because of his benevolent nature, he accepts
and appreciates our humble offerings even though he
has no need or hankering for them. Was Sri Bhagavan really
hankering for beaten rice or was he just ecstatic that his
dear friend Sudama came to see him and was moved by
his offering to him?

Can not a billionaire be moved to tears upon receiving
a gift made with his wife's own hands? Yes, but that
doesn't mean that he needed or was hankering for
that gift. It is the love that matters.

Had Aum

[devotee]

Namaste,

If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

OM

[Viraja]

Namaste,

God helps those who help themselves and this is what he wants - people to help themselves. This does not mean people should not pray, rather the opposite - god wants people to pray in order to help themselves. I have read somewhere that prayers and other rituals purify our internal chakras and the channels through which Kundalini rises. God really wants people to be sadhakas so that they will do what it takes to purify their chakras and experience the bliss of Kundalini rising to higher realms, so that they will enjoy the bliss of detachment from bodily hankerings and can finally merge with him/her to achieve a birthless state.

Thanks.

[Ekam]

Namaste,

If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

OM

Namaste.

I agree with this.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Namaste,

If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

OM

excellent....

What is Supreme is the sum total of all things and of no things. What would be outside of this that would be needed or desired ?
Only if the Supreme chose to play hide and seek with itself. So enters the human being who thinks it is limited in time, space, cause and creativity.
The Supreme only then wakes-up to itself knowing Itself once again as this infinite wholeness.

iti śivaṁ

[grames]

Dear Yajvan Ji.,

If and only if we think the wanting is "Outside" of this as in your statement

What is Supreme is the sum total of all things and of no things. What would be outside of this that would be needed or desired ?

Its just one thought that assumes that happenings are "outside" brahman but major Vaishnava schools believe that, "All are happening due to Him, by Him, through Him and with in Him" - This is the beauty and also a science to understand the proper realization. He is inside all yet outside...He is the substratum and also the substance! He is the Karana and also Kartha! His desire is not different from Him and He is not desireless! His desire is not same as the Human Karmic desire! He has no needs but His very nature is action, karuna, saka etc.

But again, its just another pov - From this vaishnava PoV, when He is ascribed with "desiring" or "wanting", His Supremacy is not challenged!

With the pov presented here, there is no scope for any sort of "Supremacy" and the doubts are like, why the son of barren woman is only 1 feet tall.

Hare Krshna!

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste

I think grames made a nice point here from the Vaishnava point of view.

Actually it is not true that the Supreme Lord does not want anything.
He desires and does many things: He creates the world, maintains all the living beings, comes down to this material world from his eternal abode -- brahmaloka "the world of Brahman" (brahma - Brahman, loka - world) -- as avatara to carry out his pastimes (lilas) here and thus helps souls to develop bhakti towards Him, exchanging transcendental feelings with his devotees, ... etc.
It must be that all this He wants to do because if He does not want to then He would not do all this things, right?

When we say that the Supreme Lord does not want anything, ie that He is Desireless, what does it mean?
Here is a verse from the Shruti about this:

akāmō dhīrō amr̥taḥ svayambhū rasēna tr̥ptō na kutaś canōnaḥ
tam ēva vidvān na bibhāya mr̥tyōr ātmānaṁ dhīram ajaraṁ yuvānam

"Desireless, serene, immortal, Self-existent, contented with the essence, lacking nothing, is He. One has no fear of death who has known Him, the atman -- serene, ageless, youthful." (Atharva Veda 10.8.44)

Here The Supreme Lord is described as "Desireless" and "lacking nothing"!
He does not do anything in order to gain anything because He is described here as "lacking nothing" and therefore "Desireless". This, however, does not mean that He has no desires! In fact He has plenty of them. He has plenty of desires!


regards

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~~
namasté

grames writes,

If and only if we think the wanting is "Outside" of this as in your statement

Its just one thought that assumes that happenings are "outside" brahman but major Vaishnava schools believe that, "All are happening due to Him, by Him, through Him and with in Him" - This is the beauty and also a science to understand the proper realization. He is inside all yet outside...He is the substratum and also the substance! He is the Karana and also Kartha!

Yes, I see your point... from the point of view of kaśmir śaivism ( which I know we're in the vaiṣṇava folder) the supreme is viewed as wholeness or pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa ( fullness or a full vessel i.e. overflowing , supreme).
So this suggests that if the Supreme is wholeness, fullness, what can be lacking ? What can be outside of this fullness ? By definition, if it is outside , then the Supreme is not the total fullness. Even the desires of humans reside within this fullness.

Now that said, please note my offer is not in dis-agreement of anything you have offered. It is presented to compare-and-contrast notions or points of view.
Hence as I view it, such is the name of viṣṇu from the root viṣ , 'all pervading ' and compliments the term śiva from the root śī , 'in whom all things lie'. This wholeness is none other then these two terms defining the Supreme's most infinite nature.

Yet for me ( and me only) the notion of ~desire~ associated with the Supreme is one of semantics.

iti śivaṁ

[Marga mana das]

Namaste,

If Supreme does want something, He/She/It is not really Supreme.

OM

-A good example of materially conditioned logic, and the mistaken conclusion it produces.

Trying to understand the nature of the Absolute by means of mundane reasoning is going to fail. One of the reasons the Absolute is called Acintya - incomprihensible, is that He is not understood by mundane logic. The nature of the Absolute is going to be understood when it is revealed by the Absolute Himself - through the medium of His representative, the spiritual master. Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita, verse 4.34

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah


Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.



So one has to learn from a bona-fide spiritual master, who again has learned from a bona-fide spiritual master, and so on. Lord Krishna refers to this system of disiplic succession - guru-parampara, in verses 4.1-2.


sri-bhagavan uvaca
imam vivasvate yogam
proktavan aham avyayam
vivasvan manave praha
manur iksvakave 'bravit


The Blessed Lord said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Iksvaku.


evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduh
sa kaleneha mahata
yogo nastah parantapa


This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.


Sri Krishna - the Supreme Personality og Godhead, is the adi-guru - the original spiritual master, and perfect knowledge of that which is beyond our senses/experience has to come from Him. That is the system of receiving perfect, flawless knowledge. That is the vedic process of attaining knowledge of the Absolute Truth.

Mental speculation may be fun, but it is not going to yield the desired fruit of knowing the Supreme. Therefore Lord Krishna says in verse 7.19

bahunam janmanam ante

jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma su-durlabhah


After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

He further offers(verse 18.55):

bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram


One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

Inthe previous verse he explains:

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param


One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.

So bhakti is attained after one is in the liberated stage!
The Absolute reveals Himself only to those who have surrendered at His Lotus Feet, and serves Him with devotion. Surrender, love and devotion is the price.

Lord Brahma prays in the Brahma-samhita (verse 5.38):

“I worship Govinda, the original Supreme Person, Krishna Himself. He is Shyamasundara, the Beautiful One with a complexion the color of a dark stormy cloud. He is the personification of inconceivable attributes. Indeed, the saints always see Him in their hearts, for they have applied the collirium of pure love on their eyes.”

In Sri Isopanishad (where we find the verse om purnam adah purnam idam...) the devotee prays:

hiranmayena patrena
satyasyapihitam mukham
tat tvam pushann apavrinu
satya-dharmaya drishtaye
SYNONYMS
hiranmayena -- by a golden effulgence; patrena -- by a dazzling covering; satyasya -- of the Supreme Truth; apihitam -- covered; mukham -- the face; tat -- that covering; tvam -- Yourself; pushan -- O sustainer; apavrinu -- kindly remove; satya -- pure; dharmaya -- unto the devotee; drishtaye -- for exhibiting.
TRANSLATION
O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.

And indeed, The Lord reveals Himself to the pure devotee, as a reciprocation of his/her love, as the Lord also loves him/her and wants to engage that jiva in His eternal, blissful lilas beyond the material covering, and beyond the brahmajyoti effulgence.


Hare Krishna!

[devotee]

Namaste,

Lord also loves him/her and wants to engage that jiva in His eternal, blissful lilas beyond the material covering, and beyond the brahmajyoti effulgence.

Please quote from Bhagwad Gita where God says this.

OM