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Thread: What does the Supreme really want?

  1. #91

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Desires or not desires - that is the question...

    I think we all agree that the Supreme does not need anything, His being purnam - complete.

    Nevertheless I think it is interresting to ask the question - Why has Brahman expanded/manifested Himself into so many small units of consciousness - us -the jivas who have this material experience?

    Maybe it is simply because He wanted to, for some reason?
    Or did it just happen without His wanting it?

    Haribol.

  2. #92
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by SanathanaDharma View Post
    ... there are no rules defined when you fight against adharma ...
    Dear SanathanaDharma

    You have written many excellent things but I must strongly disagree with you on this idea because I think it is very dangerous. There are things which should not be done even when fighting against adharma as the pandavas were. For instance, killing women, children, someone while they are asleep or if they have surrendered, etc. should not be done by "A person who knows the principles of religion" SB 1.7.36

    Karna was "someone who has lost his chariot" and normally it would not have been proper to kill him in that circumstance; however the fulfillment of the curse of his guru (that he should die in that exact circumstance) took precedence and therefore Sri Bhagavan ordered Arjuna (who would have eventually defeated him in fair combat anyway) to do the necessary. So then imo when two principles conflict one must uphold the higher principle even at the expense of the other. However that is very different than saying that "there are no rules defined when you fight against adharma".

    Hari Aum
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste

    Dear Marga mana das

    Couldn't we just as easily ask "Why is the Supreme omniscient?"
    If it is simply part of his eternal nature to be omniscient, omnipotent,
    to expand, retract and have so many activities then there is no 'why?'.

    "Maybe it is simply because He wanted to, for some reason?"
    One can only 'want' something that is not already the case.

    "Or did it just happen without His wanting it?"
    Something that is eternal does not just happen - it always was.

    Hari Aum


    Quote Originally Posted by Marga mana das View Post
    Desires or not desires - that is the question...

    I think we all agree that the Supreme does not need anything, His being purnam - complete.

    Nevertheless I think it is interresting to ask the question - Why has Brahman expanded/manifested Himself into so many small units of consciousness - us -the jivas who have this material experience?

    Maybe it is simply because He wanted to, for some reason?
    Or did it just happen without His wanting it?

    Haribol.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

  4. #94

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by R Gitananda View Post
    Namaste

    Dear Marga mana das

    Couldn't we just as easily ask "Why is the Supreme omniscient?"
    If it is simply part of his eternal nature to be omniscient, omnipotent,
    to expand, retract and have so many activities then there is no 'why?'.


    Hari Aum
    Dear Gitananda, namaste

    The Supreme being is sat-cit-ananda, and I agree that there is no meaning to asking why He is eternal, fully cognisant and blissful, but when it comes to activities - I can not accept that the Supreme conscious Being has no purpose to His activities, i.e. manifesting the material world, Himself appearing in it, giving the Vedas, speaking the gita etc. This all happens automatically?

    Hare Krishna.

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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Pranam Marga mana ji

    Quote Originally Posted by Marga mana das View Post
    Namaste Ganeshprasad,

    Brahmano in this verse refers to the impersonal brahmajyoti.

    Oh refers to! In other words it's an interpretation, not an actual direct translation. I have and read few different variants of Gita, none of them ever mentions any thing remotely as impersonal brahmajyoti.
    You may be impressed by those scholars and their endorsement of your guru, that is no evidence that translation is correct.
    In fact I be happy if you said the author arrived at that conclusion, as far as I can see in the Sabda kosh (dictionary) there no such word as impersonal brahmajyoti = Brahmano.
    There is a tendency in all the sects to stretch the meaning to suit the doctrine, they all do it, don't be surprised if not everyone shares your sentiments.


    What is your authority on the gita?


    Hare Krishna.
    I think its a cheek of you to ask what is my authority, if you must know it is my own family tradition and ultimately Bhagvan.
    I don't see lord Krishna mentions anything about brahmajyoti let alone impersonal, unless off course he did not have this vocabulary and left it with us poor souls to work out the correct meaning.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste,

    The Supreme is the ultimate architect, controller, owner and enjoyer of the cosmos, but we mustn't forget that He is aloof to it all. Though He seemingly performs thousands of actions, He actually does nothing. In his transcendental position He remains alone and pure, desireless, and one without a second.

    Om Namah Shivaya

    LightOfOm
    ॐ मृत्युंजयाय रुद्राय नीलकण्ठाय शम्भवे l
    अमृतेशाय शर्वाय महादेवाय ते नम: ll

    Sanātana Dharma Worldwide

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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post

    Does the Supreme have any want or need, how could this be anything other false, or how could he then be Absolute. or perhaps He also has an Absolute need.
    His compassion for our plight and desire to see us liberated?
    namastE astu bhagavan vishveshvarAya mahAdevAya tryaMbakAya|
    tripurAntakAya trikAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakaNThAya mRtyuJNjayAya sarveshvarAya sadAshivAya shrIman mAhAdevAya ||

    Om shrImAtrE namah

    sarvam shrI umA-mahEshwara parabrahmArpaNamastu


    A Shaivite library
    http://www.scribd.com/HinduismLibrary

  8. #98

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Marga mana ji




    Oh refers to! In other words it's an interpretation, not an actual direct translation. I have and read few different variants of Gita, none of them ever mentions any thing remotely as impersonal brahmajyoti.
    You may be impressed by those scholars and their endorsement of your guru, that is no evidence that translation is correct.
    In fact I be happy if you said the author arrived at that conclusion, as far as I can see in the Sabda kosh (dictionary) there no such word as impersonal brahmajyoti = Brahmano.
    There is a tendency in all the sects to stretch the meaning to suit the doctrine, they all do it, don't be surprised if not everyone shares your sentiments.




    I think its a cheek of you to ask what is my authority, if you must know it is my own family tradition and ultimately Bhagvan.
    I don't see lord Krishna mentions anything about brahmajyoti let alone impersonal, unless off course he did not have this vocabulary and left it with us poor souls to work out the correct meaning.

    Jai Shree Krishna

    To clarify what is Brahman, what is brahmajyoti, and how it relates to Bhagavan, who states : brahmano hi pratishthāham (Bg. 14.27):

    This brahmajyoti effulgence is described in detail in several mantras of the Mundaka Upanishad (2.2.10-12):

    hiranmaye pare kose
    virajam brahma nishkalam
    tac chubhram jyotisham jyotis
    tad yad atma-vido viduh
    na tatra suryo bhati na candra-tarakam
    nema vidyuto bhanti kuto 'yam agnih
    tam eva bhantam anu bhati sarvam
    tasya bhasa sarvam idam vibhati
    brahmaivedam amritam purastad brahma
    pascad brahma dakshinatas cottarena
    adhas cordhvam ca prasritam brahmai-
    vedam visvam idam varishtham
    "In the spiritual realm, beyond the material covering, is the unlimited Brahman effulgence, which is free from material contamination. That effulgent white light is understood by transcendentalists to be the light of all lights. In that realm there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity for illumination. Indeed, whatever illumination appears in the material world is only a reflection of that supreme illumination. That Brahman is in front and in back, in the north, south, east and west, and also overhead and below. In other words, that supreme Brahman effulgence spreads throughout both the material and spiritual skies."


    That the brahmajyoti is Krishna's effulgence is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita (5.40):
    "In the millions and millions of universes there are innumerable planets, and each and every one of them is different from the others by its cosmic constitution. All of these planets are situated in a corner of the brahmajyoti. This brahmajyoti is but the personal rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, whom I worship."

    The Isopanishad mantra 15 is a simple prayer to the Lord to remove the brahmajyoti so that one can see His real face.

    SYNONYMS
    hiranmayena -- by a golden effulgence; patrena -- by a dazzling covering; satyasya -- of the Supreme Truth; apihitam -- covered; mukham -- the face; tat -- that covering; tvam -- Yourself; pushan -- O sustainer; apavrinu -- kindly remove; satya -- pure; dharmaya -- unto the devotee; drishtaye -- for exhibiting.
    TRANSLATION


    O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.

    The brahmajyoti is described in the Brahma-samhita as the rays emanating from that supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Vrindavana, just as the sun's rays emanate from the sun globe. Until one surpasses the glare of the brahmajyoti, one cannot receive information of the land of the Lord. The impersonalist philosophers, blinded as they are by the dazzling brahmajyoti, can realize neither the factual abode of the Lord nor His transcendental form. Limited by their poor fund of knowledge, such impersonalist thinkers cannot understand the all-blissful transcendental form of Lord Krishna. In this prayer, therefore, Sri Isopanishad petitions the Lord to remove the effulgent rays of the brahmajyoti so that the pure devotee can see His all-blissful transcendental form.
    By realizing the impersonal brahmajyoti, one experiences the auspicious aspect of the Supreme, and by realizing the Paramatma, or all-pervading feature of the Supreme, one experiences an even more auspicious enlightenment. But by meeting the Personality of Godhead Himself face to face, the devotee experiences the most auspicious feature of the Supreme. Since He is addressed as the primeval philosopher and maintainer and well-wisher of the universe, the Supreme Truth cannot be impersonal. This is the verdict of Sri Isopanishad. The word pushan ("maintainer") is especially significant, for although the Lord maintains all beings, He specifically maintains His devotees. After surpassing the impersonal brahmajyoti and seeing the personal aspect of the Lord and His most auspicious eternal form, the devotee realizes the Absolute Truth in full.
    In his Bhagavat-sandarbha, Srila Jiva Gosvami states: "The complete conception of the Absolute Truth is realized in the Personality of Godhead because He is almighty and possesses full transcendental potencies. The full potency of the Absolute Truth is not realized in the brahmajyoti; therefore Brahman realization is only partial realization of the Personality of Godhead. O learned sages, the first syllable of the word bhagavan (bha) has two meanings: the first is 'one who fully maintains,' and the second is 'guardian.' The second syllable (ga) means 'guide,' 'leader' or 'creator.' The syllable van indicates that every being lives in Him and that He also lives in every being. In other words, the transcendental sound bhagavan represents infinite knowledge, potency, energy, opulence, strength and influence -- all without a tinge of material inebriety."


    Krsna and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are identical. Therefore Lord Krsna is referred to as "Bhagavan" throughout the Gita. Bhagavan is the ultimate in the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding, namely Brahman or the impersonal all-pervasive spirit; Paramatma, or the localized aspect of the Supreme within the heart of all living entities; and Bhagavan, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam this conception of the Absolute Truth is explained thus:

    vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
    brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate

    "The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan." (Bhag. 1.2.11) These three divine aspects can be explained by the example of the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, the sun's surface and the sun planet itself. One who studies the sunshine only is the preliminary student. One who understands the sun's surface is further advanced. And one who can enter into the sun planet is the highest. Ordinary students who are satisfied by simply understanding the sunshine--its universal pervasiveness and the glaring effulgence of its impersonal nature--may be compared to those who can realize only the Brahman feature of the Absolute Truth. The student who has advanced still further can know the sun disc, which is compared to knowledge of the Paramatma feature of the Absolute Truth. And the student who can enter into the heart of the sun planet is compared to those who realize the personal features of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Therefore, the bhaktas, or the transcendentalists who have realized the Bhagavan feature of the Absolute Truth, are the topmost transcendentalists, although all students who are engaged in the study of the Absolute Truth are engaged in the same subject matter. The sunshine, the sun disc and the inner affairs of the sun planet cannot be separated from one another, and yet the students of the three different phases are not in the same category.
    The Sanskrit word bhagavan is explained by the great authority, Parasara Muni, the father of Vyasadeva. The Supreme Personality who possesses all riches, all strength, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation is called Bhagavan. There are many persons who are very rich, very powerful, very beautiful, very famous, very learned, and very much detached, but no one can claim that he possesses all riches, all strength, etc., entirely. Only Krsna can claim this because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No living entity, including Brahma, Lord Siva, or Narayana, can possess opulences as fully as Krsna. Therefore it is concluded in the Brahma-samhita (5.1) by Lord Brahma himself that Lord Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No one is equal to or above Him. He is the primeval Lord, or Bhagavan, known as Govinda, and He is the supreme cause of all causes.

    isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
    anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam



    īśvaraḥ — the controller; paramaḥ — supreme; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; sat — comprising eternal existence; cit — absolute knowledge; ānanda — and absolute bliss; vigrahaḥ — whose form; anādiḥ — without beginning; ādiḥ — the origin; govindaḥ — Lord Govinda; sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam — the cause of all causes.


    TRANSLATION


    Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.


    Quotes from ISKCON founder His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books.

    Hare Krishna.

  9. #99

    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Marga mana ji


    Jai Shree Krishna
    You glorify Sri Krishna - which is nice, but at the same time you critisize His Maha-Bhagavata devotee. That is not very wise. We are meant to please the Lord, and the most secure way to displease Him is to offend His dear devotees. The Lord is very tolerant on His own behalf, but He does not tolerate offences to His beloved devotees.

    What person on this planet has done more to spread the glories of Lord Krishna all over the world than His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?

    He is the single person who finally fulfilled the prophesy given by Lord Chaitanya that the chanting of the Holy Names of Lord Krishna would be spread to all corners of the globe.

    His International Society for Krishna Consciousness is well established in most countries, and His followers worship Lord Krishna very nicely in temples and continue to teach the science of Krishna consciousness to the unfortunate people of Kali-yuga, making them most fortunate.

    This is the glory of Srila Prabhupada, and it will shine forever.

    His books are translated into more than 80 different languages, and more than half a billion books have been distributed. Every day new people are taking up bhakti-yoga and dedicating their lives to the service of Lord Krishna. He is truely a Jagad-Guru, and He is very dear to Lord Krishna.
    He has done the greatest service to Lord Krishna. Wise people recognize this and support Him - not oppose Him.

    Hare Krishna.

  10. #100
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    Re: What does the Supreme really want?

    Namaste Anirudh
    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste

    I want to ask a simple probably kindergarten question. There are three different entities in my question

    1) Sreeman Naaraayan,
    2) Anirudh, and
    3) This universe / world

    Why #1 creates #2 and #3, sends #2 to #3, expects #2 to behave in a particular manner, guide #2 to surrender to #1 unconditionally and sows a desire in #2 to return #1.

    I represent a lay man... All I know is myself, my God, and the world I live....

    So I don't understand why #1 does all this?
    Firstly you should understand that #1 did not create #2 because he (#2) is an eternal living being. See Bhagavad gita 15.7 about that:

    "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."

    It says "eternal". Something that is eternal has never been created, but existed always in the past and will exist forever in the future.

    Now about "So I don't understand why #1 does all this?".
    It's a really good question.
    My answer is here, post #61: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...t=11407&page=7

    #1 wants that #2 returns to #1, so He gives him Bhagavad gita and Vaishnavas (and perhaps even this HDF).

    If you need further clarification, ask.


    regards

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