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Thread: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

  1. #11

    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Thats why i asked you "If Prakriti is dependent on time ... is it not subject to death " ?!
    What is some times there and some times not there ... is ... mithya!!
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear savithru,


    Buddhism, Hinduism etc , set aside ...
    Both Buddhism and Hinduism should not be set aside instead they both should be set straight because they both have strayed from the truth.

    the Truth ... as it stands ... is perfectly revealed by Shankara.
    The Truth as it stands is not perfectly revealed by Shankara. Saguna Brahman with many attributes is as real as Nirguna Brahman without attributes.

    Shankara is not mayavadi ... he is Brahmavadi !
    "Brahma Sathyam Jagat Mithyam". Shankara is indeed a mayavadi.

    "Both Purusha and Prakrithi is Brahmam" (Sri Aurobindo). This is the correct view.


    One has to understand properly.

    There are three : SAT, ASAT, MITHYA.
    SAT : trikalepi tishtati ... it is as it is in all three states of time.
    in other words it is time independent.

    ASAT : trikalepi na tishtati ... its not there in all three states of time .... ex: horns of a hare.

    MITHYA: IT "Appears" but IS NOT! This is where Maya comes into picture.
    what IS is SAT...
    Brahman is both time and timeless, it is mutable and immutable, it is one and many, it is finite and infinite, it is life and death, it is heat and cold, it is nirguna and saguna.

    its like a snake imagined on a rope. We have example of a dream in our lives. dream appears, is it there ?
    Jagat is real its not a dream the world continues to exist even after you know Brahman, the world will not dissolve with in you.

    so in this classification ... there is no scope for error ... since its a perfect partition.

    Even if u say "God is present everywhere" ...
    our current vision that "God is not present anywhere" is "Wrong" ... it is MITHYA! There is Maya !

    Love!
    Silence
    Brahman is both knowledge and ignorance. The world is good and it is real and Doing verily works in this world a man should live a hundred years, one should not give up work and become a sanyasi. This is what Krishna says in Bhagvad Gita that one who sees no difference between one who works and one who renounces work is a very intelligent person.
    Last edited by savithru; 17 September 2014 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Changed Font

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Thats why i asked you "If Prakriti is dependent on time ... is it not subject to death " ?!
    What is some times there and some times not there ... is ... mithya!!
    Prakrithi subjected to death? Prakrithi always exists with purusha it will not disappear it just either becomes manifested in creation of the world or becomes unmanifested in dissolution of the world.

    Both the manifested and the unmanifested should be known to have complete knowledge of Brahman.
    Last edited by savithru; 17 September 2014 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Changed Font

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Namaste savithru ji,


    Thank you for your reply. If I understand you correctly, Śrī Aurobindo consulted "ancient oral traditions."* This is new information to me. I'd be grateful if you would point me to a quote in one of his writings where he explains this. At the moment I'm unable to locate a source for this idea and I get a very different idea from Śrī Aurobindo's The Secret of the Veda, where he explains his own "theory of psychological interpretation" of the scriptures as a means to get to the "inner sense" beneath the symbols and go deeper than the "ritualistic interpretation."


    In chapter 4 of this book he walks the reader through his process of interpretation step by step. He starts by laying out his principles of interpretation (on pages 34-35 and 40) that involve looking to the "internal evidence" of the texts. He says that "a hypothesis of the sense of Veda must always proceed, to be sure and sound, from a basis that clearly emerges in the language of the Veda itself." So the good interpreter must look only to the Sanskrit in the text to find the true meaning. There "should be clear indications in the explicit language...which will guide us to that sense." We already know by this point from chapter 2 (p. 19) that his primary source of information about Sanskrit was "Yaska's lexicon, our most important help" (i.e. Yāska's Nirukta, an ancient treatise that explains the etymology and semantics of Sanskrit words). He further asserts that we must look for consistent meanings (a "firm and not fluctuating sense," he says) "founded on good philological justification" and meanings that fit "naturally into the context." Sound interpretation will "illuminate what seemed obscure" and "create intelligible and clear coherence where there seemed to be only confusion." On page 40 he adds that the good interpreter must "avoid Sayana's tendency" to blur important distinctions between words, giving them "their vaguest general significance." Instead distinguishing between the meanings of words with precision is key.


    Pages 40 through 47 of chapter 4 show how Aurobindo followed these principles, using a process of reasoning and what he calls "commonsense," along with a comparison to his own personal experiences at one point, to uncover the hidden meaning of the Vedas. On page 42 he explains how he began to go deeper than the "surface meaning."


    Aurobindo's own detailed explanation of how he determined the meaning of the scriptures makes sense to me as an accurate description of his process. He was after all educated in England and apparently did not have a guru, unless you count the voice and presence of Svāmī Vivekānanda that he experienced when he was in jail in 1908 (an implicit endorsement of Neo-Vedānta?), according to his Autobiographical Notes. Moreover, his Integral Psychology and Intergral Yoga seem to be widely perceived (mistakenly perhaps?) to be innovations in that they are said to synthesize a variety of ideas and practices from different sources.


    If he offers another account of how he reached his conclusions, I'm very interested. Thank you.


    praṇām


    * "We have to value the ancient oral traditions over anything else because that's where the truth of Hinduism is."
    śrīmate nārāyaṇāya namaḥ

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Read the Veda in light of Aurobindo where he explains that when he was in Pondicherry that he was turned to the Vedas and gained new insights about the Vedas from his learning of the Tamil language through which the Vedas affirmed his own spiritual experiences of the divine more profoundly than anything else.

    Moreover Integral Yoga or "Inner yajna" is not a new invention of Sri Aurobindo it was practised by the ancient Vedic rishis like Vishwamitra, Vamadeva, Vashishta, Gargi, Yajnavalkya, Vaishampayana etc.


    "The Isha Upanishad introduces to us the integral spiritual realisation and the principle of the integral yoga; within a short space it resolves many difficult problems. It is a śruti replete with sublime, profound and fathomless significances. This Upanishad, concluded in eighteen slokas, explains in these small mantras many major truths of the world. Such “infinite riches in a little room” can be found only in this śruti."

    - Sri Aurobindo

    Last edited by savithru; 17 September 2014 at 02:27 AM. Reason: Chnaged Font

  6. #16

    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Dear savithru ji,
    One can say anything : shankara was wrong etc.
    But one should supply proofs. Without appropriate proofs and systematic analysis one cannot see the truth! What is the use in saying "Aurobindo's view is correct view"... Aurobindo's views dont stand the test of basic reasoning.

    -----------------------------------1-------------------------------------------
    when you say "Brahman is both purusha and prakriti" ...
    a) You have created a divide .... a way to divide brahman : and so brahman being "Akhandita" is negated !
    b) Moreover since prakriti changes Brahman too changes ! Since its prakriti atleast in part !


    -------------------------------------2----------------------------------------

    Purely on a logical ground if something changes :

    a) It dies. Since its time dependent.
    b) There is something that is changelessly present with reference to which this changes.
    Now if some changeless presence is there ... i rename that as "Brahman" ... and what is changing with reference to it ... i rename it as "Mithya" ... since mithya is that which is for some time and then not there ... what is hallucination ? You see for some time and then its no more! thats hallucination....

    -----------------------------------3----------------------------
    Further ... when you say "World is not a dream".... its something you are stating without any proof , appropriate logic!

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Namaste Savithru,

    You have used too much of bold and increased font in your posts. This makes one feel as if you are shouting through your posts.

    Can you use normal fonts ? This will make reading your posts easy. If there is something really special in any post, you may like to highlight that word/term used in the post.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear savithru ji,
    One can say anything : shankara was wrong etc.
    But one should supply proofs. Without appropriate proofs and systematic analysis one cannot see the truth! What is the use in saying "Aurobindo's view is correct view"... Aurobindo's views dont stand the test of basic reasoning.

    -----------------------------------1-------------------------------------------
    when you say "Brahman is both purusha and prakriti" ...
    a) You have created a divide .... a way to divide brahman : and so brahman being "Akhandita" is negated !
    b) Moreover since prakriti changes Brahman too changes ! Since its prakriti atleast in part !


    -------------------------------------2----------------------------------------

    Purely on a logical ground if something changes :

    a) It dies. Since its time dependent.
    b) There is something that is changelessly present with reference to which this changes.
    Now if some changeless presence is there ... i rename that as "Brahman" ... and what is changing with reference to it ... i rename it as "Mithya" ... since mithya is that which is for some time and then not there ... what is hallucination ? You see for some time and then its no more! thats hallucination....

    -----------------------------------3----------------------------
    Further ... when you say "World is not a dream".... its something you are stating without any proof , appropriate logic!

    Love!
    Silence
    The Vedic rishis neither arrived at the truth by logical reasoning or by intellectual speculation. They arrived at it by practising Deity Yoga. Brahman is both khand and akhand. Brahman cannot be conceptualized it is beyond logic and reason. However the truth of whatever I am saying here can be realized by systematic practice of Yoga.

    Those who want to know whether Shankara was right or Aurobindo was right will practice Deity Yoga and worship Hiranyagarbha and figure out the truth by themselves by doing both saguna as well as nirguna upasana while the others those who doesn't do will end up in darkness and ignorance.



    The Secret of the Isha

    It is now several thousands of years since men ceased to study Veda and Upanishad for the sake of Veda or Upanishad. Ever since the human mind in India, more & more intellectualised, always increasingly addicted to the secondary process of knowledge by logic & intellectual ratiocination, increasingly drawn away from the true & primary processes of knowledge by experience and direct perception, began to dislocate & dismember the many sided harmony of ancient Vedic truth & parcel it out into schools of thought & systems of metaphysics, its preoccupation has been rather with the later opinions of Sutras & Bhashyas than with the early truth of Scripture.

    Veda & Vedanta ceased to be guides to knowledge & became merely mines & quarries from which convenient texts might be extracted, regardless of context, to serve as weapons in the polemic disputes of metaphysicians. The inconvenient texts were ignored or explained away by distortion of their sense or by depreciation of their value. Those that neither helped nor hindered the polemical purpose of the exegete were briefly paraphrased or often left in a twilit obscurity. For the language of the Vedantic writers ceased to be understood; their figures, symbols of thought, shades of expression became antique & unintelligible. Hence passages which, when once fathomed, reveal a depth of knowledge & delicacy of subtle thought almost miraculous in its wealth & quality, strike the casual reader today as a mass of childish, obscure & ignorant fancies characteristic of an unformed and immature thinking. Rubbish & babblings of humanity’s nonage an eminent Western scholar has termed them not knowing that it was not the text but his understanding of it that was rubbish & the babblings of ignorance. Worst of all, the spiritual & psychological experiences of the Vedic seekers were largely lost to India as the obscurations of the Iron Age grew upon her, as her knowledge contracted, her virtue dwindled & her old spiritual valiancy lost its daring & its nerve. Not altogether lost indeed for its sides of knowledge & practice still lived in cave & hermitage, its sides of feeling & emotion, narrowed by a more exclusive & self-abandoned fervour, remained, quickened even in the throbbing intensity of the Bhakti Marga and the violent inner joys of countless devotees. But even here it remained dim & obscure, shorn of its fullness, dimmed in its ancient and radiant purity. Yet we think, however it may be with the Vedas we have understood & possess the Upanishads! We have understood a few principal texts & even those imperfectly; but of the mass of the Upanishads we understand less than we do of the Egyptian hieroglyphics and of the knowledge these great writings hold enshrined we possess less than we do of the wisdom of the ancient Egyptians. Dabhram evapi twam vettha Brahmano rupam!

    I have said that the increasing intellectualisation of the Indian mind has been responsible for this great national loss. Our forefathers who discovered or received Vedic truth, did not arrive at it either by intellectual speculation or by logical reasoning. They attained it by actual & tangible experience in the spirit, — by spiritual & psychological observation, as we may say, & what they thus experienced, they understood by the instrumentality of the intuitive reason. But a time came when men felt an imperative need to give an account to themselves & to others of this supreme & immemorial Vedic truth in the terms of logic, in the language of intellectual ratiocination. For the maintenance of the intuitive reason as the ordinary instrument of knowledge demands as its basis an iron moral & intellectual discipline, a colossal disinterestedness of thinking, — otherwise the imagination and the wishes pollute the purity of its action, replace, dethrone it and wear flamboyantly its name & mask; Vedic knowledge begins to be lost & the practice of life & symbol based upon it are soon replaced by formalised action & unintelligent rite & ceremony. Without tapasya there can be no Veda. This was the course that the stream of thought followed among us, according to the sense of our Indian tradition. The capacity for tapasya belongs to the Golden Age of man’s fresh virility; it fades as humanity ages & the cycle takes its way towards the years that are of Iron, and with tapasya, the basis, divine knowledge, the superstructure, also collapses or dwindles.

    The place of truth is then taken by superstition, irrational error that takes its stand upon the place where truth lies buried builds its tawdry & fantastic palace of pleasure upon those concealed & consecrated foundations, & even uses the ruins of old truth as stones for its irregular building. But such an usurpation can never endure. For, since the need of man’ being is truth & light, the divine law, whose chief article it is that no just demand of the soul shall remain always unsatisfied, raises up Reason to clear away Superstition. Reason arrives as the Angel of the Lord, armed with her sword of doubt & denial (for it is the nature of intellectual Reason that beyond truth of objective appearance she cannot confidently & powerfully affirm anything, but must always remain with regard to fundamental truth agnostic and doubtful, her highest word of affirmation “probably”, her lowest “perhaps”), — comes & cuts away whatever she can, often losing herself in a fury of negation, denying superstition indeed, but doubting & denying also even Truth because it has been a foundation for superstition or formed with some of its stones part of the building. But at any rate she clears the field for sounder work; she makes tabula rasa for a more correct writing. The ancient Indian mind felt instinctively — I do not say it realised or argued consciously — the necessity, as the one way to avoid such a reign of negation, of stating to the intellectual reason so much of Vedic truth as could still be grasped and justifying it logically. The Six Darshanas were the result of this mighty labour. Buddhism, the inevitable rush of negation, came indeed but it was prevented from destroying spirituality as European negation destroyed it for a time in the eighteenth & nineteenth centuries by the immense & unshakeable hold the work of the philosophers had taken upon the Indian temperament. So firm was this grasp that even the great Masters of negation — for Brihaspati who affirmed matter was a child & weakling in denial compared with the Buddhists, — could not wholly divest themselves of this characteristic Indian realisation that subjective experience is the basis of existence & the objective only an outward term of that existence.

    But admirable & necessary as was this vast work of intellectual systemisation, subtle, self-grasped & successful beyond parallel, supreme glory as it is now held and highest attainment of Indian mentality, it had from the standpoint of Vedantic truth three capital disadvantages.

    - Sri Aurobindo
    Last edited by savithru; 17 September 2014 at 02:29 AM. Reason: Changed Font

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Savithru,

    You have used too much of bold and increased font in your posts.
    I am not the only one many members here use it. Of course it is annoying for the eyes to get adjusted to different fonts in the same thread but please get used to it.

    This makes one feel as if you are shouting through your posts.
    Not really, I have started using this font in other threads too since I believe the default font is too small for people to read.

    Can you use normal fonts ? This will make reading your posts easy. If there is something really special in any post, you may like to highlight that word/term used in the post.

    OM
    As I said the default normal font is too small I believe.
    Last edited by savithru; 17 September 2014 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Changed Font

  10. #20

    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Dear savithru,


    The Vedic rishis neither arrived at the truth by logical reasoning or by intellectual speculation. They arrived at it by practising Deity Yoga. Brahman is both khand and akhand. Brahman cannot be conceptualized it is beyond logic and reason. However the truth of whatever I am saying here can be realized by systematic practice of Yoga.

    Those who want to know whether Shankara was right or Aurobindo was right will practice Deity Yoga and worship Hiranyagarbha and figure out the truth by themselves by doing both saguna as well as nirguna upasana while the others those who doesn't do will end up in darkness and ignorance.
    You are welcome to your beliefs. Beliefs cannot be reasoned about ... coz they are just beliefs.
    neither can experiences be reasoned with .... since all experiences are states of mind ... any experience u might have had can be simulated in a neuro science lab!

    Liberated living is not a matter of experience ... more so since experiences are dumb and its your interpretation of the experience that matters !

    Anyways ... "Reject statements that lack reasoning whether by a aged person or sage sukha himself. Accept words that are logically correct even if they are from a bird or a kid"

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

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