define Self Realization and Moksha

[Anirudh]

Namaste HDF

Can you define the two terms a) Self Realization b) Moksha in simple terms.

I think self realization precedes moksha, if so is it possible for a self realized soul to fall back into the darkness of ignorance again?

My understanding of these two terms (based on my understanding from wiki) :
For the Hindu religion, self- realization ( atma-jnana ) is knowledge of the true self beyond both delusion and identification with material phenomena. It refers to self identification and not ego identification.

Moksha means freedom, liberation; Moksha is also a concept that means liberation from rebirth. Moksha has been defined not merely as absence of suffering and release from bondage to saṃsāra

various schools of Hinduism also
explain the concept as presence of
the state of paripurna- brahmanubhava (oneness withBrahma, the One Supreme Self), a state of knowledge, peace and bliss

[brahma jijnasa]

Namaste Anirudh

Can you define the two terms a) Self Realization b) Moksha in simple terms.

It seems to me that you ask questions even though you already know the answer to them.

Here are a few verses from the scriptures that illustrate these questions and provide an answer to them:

"That God, the maker of all things, the great Self, always dwelling in the heart of man, is perceived by the heart, the soul, the mind; -- they who know it become immortal." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 4.17)

"The wise who perceive Him (the one God, the one ruler of many) within their self, to them belongs eternal happiness, not to others." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.12)

"This (God), which rests eternally within the self, should be known; and beyond this (God) not anything has to be known."
(Svetasvatara Upanishad 1.12)

Self Realization per vaishnava understanding means two things:
1) to know ourselves as an individual soul who has an eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord
and
2) to know the Supreme Lord (God).

In every person there are two souls (two selves): we individual soul (individual self called jiva or jiva-atma), and the Supreme Lord (God) who is Supreme soul or Supreme Self (the Self) called paramatma.
In the above verses Supreme Lord (God) is denoted as "Him", "God", or "Self", and sometimes in some translations as "Supersoul", whereas the individual soul is denoted as "self".

So, this Self Realization denotes both of those two things: to know ourselves (the self, jiva) as a being in relation to the Lord, and to know Him -- the Lord (the Self, paramatma).
In the above verses this Self Realization is denoted as knowledge of, or realization of the Lord: "who know it ", "who perceive Him", "should be known, ... has to be known".

Moksha (also called mukti) is liberation from repeated births and deaths. This moksha (mukti) is permanent and eternal state of liberation which the jiva soul attains because it is said to be the state where one "become immortal", and attains "eternal happiness", and "one never returns" (one never returns from this liberated state back to this repeated births and deaths of this material world).
This is seen in the above verses where this moksha is denoted as "become immortal", "eternal happiness", and sometimes in some verses as "he is not born again", and "place from which, having attained it, one never returns" (see below examples of verses from the Bhagavad gita and Katha Upanishad).

The state of moksha follows as the result of Self Realization.
See above verses:
"That God, ... the great Self, ... -- they who know it become immortal."
"The wise who perceive Him ... within their self, to them belongs eternal happiness, not to others."

The state of moksha (mukti) is experienced in the world that is called Vaikuntha, which is a personal residence of Lord Vishnu, sometimes called the Highest abode of Vishnu (viṣṇoḥ paramaḿ padam) mentioned in the Katha Upanishad 1.3.9 and Rig Veda 1.22.20.

One of the features of the state of mukti in addition to the immortality is the experience of (feeling of) eternal happiness (unending happiness) which is experienced by the mukta (liberated soul). This is stated in the Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.12 (I mentioned above):

"The wise who perceive Him (the one God, the one ruler of many) within their self, to them belongs eternal happiness, not to others."

I think self realization precedes moksha, if so is it possible for a self realized soul to fall back into the darkness of ignorance again?

Yes it is possible, but one who is a self-realized soul who has completely took a refuge in the Lord, to him the Lord gives a promise that he will reach the realm of Vaikuntha, and not to return to this mortal world again:

Bhagavad gita 8.15:
"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Bhagavad gita 8.21:
"That which the Vedāntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns -- that is My supreme abode."

Here the Lord's abode is described as "the supreme destination" and "place from which, having attained it, one never returns" which tells us that this is a place of liberation (or mukti because it says "one never returns"), which is the ultimate goal for every yogi (because it says "the supreme destination"), and also it is (see above verse 8.15) "the highest perfection" to achieve Him -- Lord Krishna there in his abode.
After death everyone achieves some destination, higher or lower species of life, higher or lower world, but here in these verses Lord Krishna says that his supreme abode is known as the supreme destination which means that there is nothing higher than this because it is the supreme destination for every yogi to be achieved, and also it is "the highest perfection".
What is higher than "the supreme destination" and "the highest perfection"? Apparently nothing because there is nothing which is higher than the highest.

There are several other verses in the Bhagavad gita that tells the same, that one never returns. See eg verses 8.16; 15.6; 13.24; 4.9; 15.3-4.

Vaikuntha (the Highest abode of Vishnu) is permanent and eternal state of liberation (mukti), which is the ultimate goal for every yogi who:

"reaches the end of the journey, the Highest abode of Vishnu" (Katha Upanishad 1.3.9)

and also

"he reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again." (Katha Upanishad 1.3.8)

Here in the Katha Upanishad "the end of the journey" and "he is not born again" tells us that this viṣṇoḥ paramaḿ padam "the Highest abode of Vishnu" (called Vaikuntha in the Puranas) is a place of liberation (or mukti because it says "he is not born again"), which is the final and ultimate goal for every yogi (because it says "the end of the journey"), and it says that it is the highest possible abode to be achieved by a yogi because it says that it is "the Highest abode of Vishnu" where "the Highest" means that there is no something higher than that.

This is also confirmed in the final verse of the Chandogya Upanishad: " ... (he) does not return, yea, he does not return".

I know that you are interested in the Ramanuja's tradition of Sri vaishnavas. So I can tell you that in the commentary on the Bhagavad gita 18.62 (tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha ... ) Ramanuja explained words "eternal abode" (sthānam śāśvatam)
mentioned in the verse 18.62 to refer to the Lord Vishnu's abode by quoting several Shruti texts including those two that I mentioned above, Katha Upanishad 1.3.9 and Rig Veda 1.22.20, thus giving a proof from the Shruti that this is the final destination that a yogi has to reach and the place of eternal liberation from which there is no return to this mortal world again.


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Svetasvatara Upanishad and Katha Upanishad quotes see at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe15/index.htm

Bhagavad gita quotes see at BBT, vedabase



regards

[Anirudh]

Namaste brahma jijnasa

Thank you for giving me elobarate explanation.


It seems to me that you ask
questions even though you already
know the answer to them.


Honestly I don't do that. I am reading both the epics, V'advaita, Sri Bashyam, Srimad BG and listen to lectures related to Sri Vaishnavam.

Sometimes one scripture contradict with the other. For eg : Venkateshwara Mahatyam says Shree Vedavalli was the actual person (instead of Sita Maatha) to undergo hardships at Lanka while Valmiki Raamayan doesn't utter a word about Shree Vedavalli.

So I ask questions by presenting whatever I know.

I was reading Srimad BG. In that Arjuna is able to see Vishwaroopa Darshan. In order to see that, he gets the Yogic power given by Shree Krishna. Essentially He is self realized.

The same "self realized guy" later takes revenge for Abhimanyu death, cries for his children death, his elder brother death etc etc.

(I haven't yet completed MB, so don't know how many doubts I ll get?)

I get confused why these events are associated with Self realized guy. Is self realization a candy that stays with you as long you dont experience its bliss?

The more I practise the detached attachment (like not asking anything to Sreeman Naaraayan or be just a witness and continue to perform activities (without expecting favorable results or avoiding unpleasant results)) , experience some sort of strange feeling.

I may sound hopelessly stupid, earlier I had a doubt whether our prayers are the business transactions that we do with GOD. Now I get a feeling whether the concept of GOD itself is a natural law to protect ourselves from misery.

If I am supposed to perform an activity with a motive to offer everything to HIM, and such kind of action dont push me into Papa Punya cycle(to get liberated in other words Moksham), essentially am I not protecting myself from agonies like disappointments, anger, revenge guilt etc etc. I think biggest enemy is disappointment. Lets say if I don't get food, and yet I am not disappointed, wont be generating negative emotions. Isn't that state is better because already I am suffering from hunger. Why should I punish myself again with negative emotion.

May be that's what Shree Raama preached us by practising Eka Pathni Vratha.

I may go on and on, but it is better to stop here.

Thanks again for your detailed expression.

[saswathy]

Dear friend ,
I think self realisation it self is the moksha because when the realisation takes place , there are no illusions , no dualities and no imprisonments.

[Anirudh]

Dear friend ,
I think self realisation it self is the moksha because when the realisation takes place , there are no illusions , no dualities and no imprisonments.

Namaste saswathy,

If that's the case they why Arjuna behaved that way even after getting the Vishwaroopa Darshan?
When Ashwathdhama fired Bhrahmastra he wouldn't have fired another Bhrahmastra to counter knowing very well that such an act will destroy the entire world that they wished to save from Adharma. How can a self realized person do that?

I am not sure, but I guess even after self realization one may fall back into Samsasra Bandhan ...

[devotee]

Namaste Anirudh,

Nowhere it is stated that Arjuna was a Self-realised soul.

What is the difference between how a JnAni (Self-realised soul) acts and how an ordinary person acts ? Lord Krishna tells us in BG that JnAnis may act in this world without having the attachment to doership and thus they would be free from Karmas. The "AjnAni" (Ignorant people) think that "I am the doer" and thus gets bound.

Self-realisation and Moksha are simultaneous. None precedes the other one. The Self-realisation or JnAna burns all Karmas like fir burns the fire-wood into ashes. Some Self-realised saints may voluntarily accept karma of "others" and may be seen as suffering but that is only outwardly just to respect the Laws of Nature/Prakriti (Laws of Karma). Inside they are ever blissful.

OM

[Anirudh]

Namaste Devotee ji


Nowhere it is stated that Arjuna was a Self-realised soul.


I remember reading it in BG Gita press English translation.
I don't have the book with me now, will update this post with details later today.
-------------
I am following BG English commentary by Jayadayal Goyandaka published by Gita Press.

In chapter 11, Shree Krishna offers yogic vision to his see cosmic body. Arjuna sees that.

Later in chapter 12, Shree Krishna explains the marks of devotees who have realized.

In chapter 18, Shree Krishna explains the glory of self surrender. When Arjuna was still confused after hearing everything, in slokam 66, Shree Krishna ask Arjuna to take refuge in HIM. And HE shall absolve all of Arjuna's SIN.
In Slokam 73 Arjuna says he has understood everything and is prepared to do everything just like an instrument of Shree Krishna.

Arjuna has seen HIS cosmic form. Arjuna has complete faith in Shree Krishna. He also understood that he is not the actual doer but just an instrument in the scheme of Shree Krishna. He has self surrended to Shree Krishna. Arjuna has his mind fixed on Shree Krishna.

After reading slokam 73 of chapter 18, how can we say Arjuna is NOT self realized ?

I dont wish to argue.

Let's assume that my teacher has taught me a lesson theoretically and also demonstrated it practically. Then he checks with me whether I understood the subject. To that if I say yes, but in reality haven't understood it, then I am telling lies.

I can neither assume that Arjuna lied nor Sreeman Naaraayan can be cheated like that.

If my inference is not correct kindly educate me.

[kallol]

Om

Namaste

My take :

Though both the terms pertain to same state of mind, it seems to me that moksha is the end and permanent state of self realisation.

The self realisation can come even in the sravanam stage but that is only in terms of knowledge. Ultimately the mokhsa satge may be achieved only in the nividhsanam. Untill and unless the self knowledge is fully assimilated, internalised and lived the state of moksha might not be permanent.

Lot of members here might have self realisation through knowledge or through meditation, etc. However, I am not sure that all of them have achieved moksha.

Self realisation is the path, mokhsa is the goal.

[saswathy]

Dear friend ,
knowledge is not self realisation. A person becomes knowledgeable by knowing things . But he becomes self realised only when he experiences and becomes one with that .Arjuna is a devotee and staunch believer and follower of krishna .He is not self realised yogi.Apart from that the script was written much before the mahaharatha war and the purpose and intent of war were not making Arjuna the realised one .Arjuna was one of the tools used in the operation --- cleaning the world.This is my opinion only . Unless the rider is given many verbal arrows would be thrown in .

[kallol]

Dear friend ,
knowledge is not self realisation. A person becomes knowledgeable by knowing things . But he becomes self realised only when he experiences and becomes one with that .Arjuna is a devotee and staunch believer and follower of krishna .He is not self realised yogi.Apart from that the script was written much before the mahaharatha war and the purpose and intent of war were not making Arjuna the realised one .Arjuna was one of the tools used in the operation --- cleaning the world.This is my opinion only . Unless the rider is given many verbal arrows would be thrown in .

Om

namaste

Dear Saswathy,

As I mentioned, it is my opinion and may not be the absolute one. We are only discussing on semantics.

Like we say "this guy is a self realised person" . It can happen many ways, however most popular are two. One is knowledge (predominant) - being under guidance of suitable Guru/s. Other is by experience may be a kind of meditation - like Buddha, Ramana Maharshi, Vivekanada, Aurobindo, etc. Even many ordinary people would have experienced and got knowledge through this.

People assimilate from 0% to 99% and live that life. However mokhsa is a state which is ideally at 100% but as far as I understand, it starts near to that.

In both these cases, we do not say that "the guy has attained mokhsa".

Again we say "attained mokhsa" but not "attained self realisation".

With all these thoughts, I could put up my point as mentioned in my earlier comment.