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Thread: What is the root of all human suffering?

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    What is the root of all human suffering?

    I am studying Hinduism, and I understand that suffering is caused by ignorance. Could someone elaborate on this for me to better understand this concept?

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    Dear friend ,
    Suffering is self done . When one sows neem seed one can't expect mango fruit by any stretch of imagination ,convincing himself or herself that God is personification of love and mercy . God is energy and reflects energy , though gets subdued by intense repentance because repentance also produces different kind of energy .

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    Namaste Gelicca,

    Quote Originally Posted by gelicaa View Post
    I am studying Hinduism, and I understand that suffering is caused by ignorance. Could someone elaborate on this for me to better understand this concept?
    You need to grasp the meaning of terms used in the context :

    "ignorance" means ===> Ignorance about one's True Nature which is untainted ever blissful. Due to ignorance, being identifies itself with "Body" "Mind", "Ego", "Intellect" which it is not and that is the main reason for all sufferings.

    "Suffering" can be a sad state but even a worldly happy state is also suffering as it is not ever blissful state and it is devoid of freedom. "Sad state of Suffering" is due to delusion and due to bad Karma accumulated by the being. "Happy state of Suffering" is due to delusion and due to good accumulated karmas.

    "Karma" means any activity of mind and body. Even a thought creates Karma. This can be both good and bad. If it is for happiness of all beings it is good Karma and if creates pains and sufferings to any being, it generates bad Karma.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    Om

    namaste

    What is meant by "suffering" ?

    It is the AS IS state of mind which is not in conformance with the desired state of mind. If the AS IS state is in higher level than desire state there is euphoria. If is lower then it is suffering.

    The AS IS state of mind can be affeted by all external (to mind) parameters, which pertains to body, desire, ego, etc.

    Now as you might have noticed that I have put a relative positioning between desired and AS IS.

    Now if the desired state is lowered to the extent that there is nothing below (ideal situation) then the AS IS state can be only above it and thus life will be only euphoric.

    However that is the blissful state we all aspire. In reality, it is difficult to bring the state of mind that level, however through yoga, meditation, knowledge gaining, etc the state of mind can be lowered down to a great extent. This will ensure fewer instances of suffering.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    What is the root of all human suffering?
    ājāti (birth)

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    We have this notion of ājāti (birth) and the notion of ignorance … how can we tie these together?

    That is done by ādi śaṅkara-ji¹ and others… He informs us:

    dehātmadhīr – the thought, idea (dhī) the body (deha = form, shape) is the Self (ātma) alone (eva) is the seed (bīja) which produces grief (duḥkha =pain , sorrow , trouble) beginning from (ādi) birth (janma)

    So we have the definition of ignorance that is offered i.e. the thought that the body is the SELF alone; we also see that it begins from ( the time of) birth.

    Now the mind thinks, is this for every birth on the planet ? Ādi śaṅkara-ji says it is those that are asaddhiyāṁ - those whose mind rests on the unreal or a+sat , un-truth.

    More can be said about this i.e. what % of the population are born with this level of discrimination at the time of birth. Forthermore one could make the case that the idea of ‘brith’ goes much further
    then the creation of another body. It could infer the birth and re-birth of thought-after-thought in the mind. This would then take us into in patañjali’s yogadarśana and the elimination of those briths¹.

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • ādi śaṅkara-ji-s vivekacūḍāmaṇi, 166th śloka
    • Patañjali’s first words on this matter is the following : yogaś citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ


    • yogaś - process of yoking; union from 'yuj'
    • citta - thinking , reflecting , imagining , thought; some put this as active mind
    • vṛtti - ' rolling , or rolling down' i.e. patterning, turnings, movements.
    • nirodhaḥ - suppression , destruction ; some prefer stilling, cessation, restriction
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    That is done by ādi śaṅkara-ji and others… He informs us:

    dehātmadhīr – the thought, idea (dhī) the body (deha = form, shape) is the Self (ātma) alone (eva) is the seed (bīja) which produces grief (duḥkha =pain , sorrow , trouble) beginning from (ādi) birth (janma)

    So we have the definition of ignorance that is offered i.e. the thought that the body is the SELF alone; we also see that it begins from ( the time of) birth.

    So, where does this ignorance reside ?

    iti śivaṁ
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    We have this notion of ājāti (birth) and the notion of ignorance … how can we tie these together?

    That is done by ādi śaṅkara-ji¹ and others… He informs us:

    dehātmadhīr – the thought, idea (dhī) the body (deha = form, shape) is the Self (ātma) alone (eva) is the seed (bīja) which produces grief (duḥkha =pain , sorrow , trouble) beginning from (ādi) birth (janma)

    So we have the definition of ignorance that is offered i.e. the thought that the body is the SELF alone; we also see that it begins from ( the time of) birth.

    Now the mind thinks, is this for every birth on the planet ? Ādi śaṅkara-ji says it is those that are asaddhiyāṁ - those whose mind rests on the unreal or a+sat , un-truth.
    The above view is that of ādi śaṅkara-ji's and advaita vedānta which I greatly respect.. There is another view which is advitīya ( whole¹, full, non-dual) but looks at things a bit differently. This is the school of trika, and within it that of kaśmir śaivism which is advitīya. We can talk of trika¹ later, or one can look it up for their review.


    In this view and direct personal experience of the muni-s of this school, the following are viewed differently, which all impact the notion of ignorance:
    • The world and universe is real in the kaśmir śaivism view of reality; that is, māyā is not the villain – in fact it is just the śakti of the Supreme at work
    • The Supreme is not called brahman¹ , but is paramaśiva. The difference is that of an active Supreme vs. totally inactive brahman
    • When brama comes in contact with māyā then jiva is created or comes into being; this is where there is the separation between advaita vedānta and kaśmir śaivism and where ignorance is to be considered.
    Within kaśmir śaivism the supreme, paramaśiva, throttles itself down into creation. Just like a 10 billion mega-watt power plant throttles itself down into various voltages to be used in various ways. In each case, the energy is the same, just reduced for use e.g. light bulbs, or a jack hammer, or an elevator lift. In each use the voltage or amps or wattage may be different, but in every case the electrons are still electrons. Like that, when śiva or paramaśiva throttles down ( transforms) into the human-like being it is called aṇu.


    This term aṇu¹ is defined as ‘fine , minute , atomic’, or the limited being. This limited being is not the result of any type of veiling, or ‘illusion’ . It is the supreme willingly transforming itself into this aṇu. Nothing is forcing paramaśiva to do this. Why ? Because He ( for lack of a better personal pronoun ) is absolutely free (svātantrya), absolutely whole. He accepts this limitation ( so say the wise) of His own free will.

    So, within this aṇu condition it has been termed aṇumala. It is the blemish (mala) of smallness, limits (aṇu). The term apūrṇatā is non-fullness. See the beauty here ? All and everything is paramaśiva, that means you. And ‘you’ dear śiva, have chosen to transform yourself into this seemingly non-full condition¹. But it is still you , just in another form. We ( as humans) ~feel~ this as being incomplete and
    so the hunt begins to find this fullness (pūrṇa) once again. But note it is just śiva looking to find its fullness again.
    You experience it ( on the human level) as a desire. All the desires that are within you are ultimately aimed at regaining that fullness again of your orginal status (paramaśiva). This aṇumala is considered the core mala ( blemish) of 3 blemishes which have been written about on HDF¹.


    So you see ignorance takes on a different view within the trika¹ school of kaśmir śaivism. But there is more to this and we can go deeper; yet note within kaśmir śaivism:
    • Māyā is that which makes differences – it is a tool of the supreme ; there is māyā- śakti and māyā-mala ( written māyiyamala) – more on these two if there is interest, yet in advaita vedānta māyā is called out as neither real , unreal or both.
    • There really is no need for the term jiva ( or individual soul) as all is śiva.
    • Brahman is paramaśiva in this school. It is paramaśiva that has spanda , some throb, some movement within itself, and is not absolutely dormant as suggested in advaita vedānta .
      • This throb as I see it ( have been taught) is Self-awareness. It is the Supreme aware of itself. This is that slight movement, that throb.
      • This throb (spanda) comes to be śakti which is non-different from śiva, and therefore all of creation comes from within him, and is not separate from Him, it resides within Him.
      • This is even in His name śiva, as śi = ‘in whom all things lie’. Nothing is outside of Him, so how can you be outside of Him ?
    • Within advaita vedānta the universe is unreal. Kaśmir śaivism suggest the universe is real because it is non-different then śiva. If the universe is unreal then śiva is unreal and this is not possible. How so ? Because of existence. Because of sattā¹. We cannot even think or say something is unreal without existence itself. If you dis-prove this, then you are dis-proving your ability to even talk of it, to dis-prove or voice anything…. see the point ? Without sattā no-thing is possible, no entity, idea, thought, or dis-proval or approval could even exist.
    Now, how to get rid of this ignorance ? This in and of itself is an interesting conversation. We can look at it if there is interest, as once again there are differences ( albeit slight) in the two schools aforementioned.

    This post also addresses the question in post 6 above.


    iti śivaṁ
    • trika means 3. Here we are talking of 3 energies or views or ~levels~ : parā, āpara and parāparā
    • blemishes and aṇu : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...01&postcount=6
    • there is a brahman in the notion of the 3rd brahman, and that is sat – pure existence itself. The 3rd brahman can be talked about later if there is interest.
    • sattā = existence, Being
    • Within kaśmir śaivism this advitīya takes on the notion of wholeness or pūrṇapātrapratibhaṭa meaning fullness or a full vessel i.e. overflowing , supreme.
    Last edited by yajvan; 02 October 2014 at 02:46 PM. Reason: added HDF post for aṇu
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    Namaste gelicca,

    Welcome to the forum.

    It is customary for new members to come in, introduce themselves, settle down in the forum and then start asking heavy hitting questions. Be as it may,

    Quote Originally Posted by gelicaa View Post
    I am studying Hinduism, and I understand that suffering is caused by ignorance. Could someone elaborate on this for me to better understand this concept?
    what have you learnt so far from your study of Hinduism? We could probably start with that and clear your doubts and answer your questions. A generic question about anything is too wide a subject to cover.

    Pranam.

  10. #10

    Re: What is the root of all human suffering?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    We cannot even think or say something is unreal without existence itself. If you dis-prove this, then you are dis-proving your ability to even talk of it, to dis-prove or voice anything…. see the point ? Without sattā no-thing is possible, no entity, idea, thought, or dis-proval or approval could even exist. Now, how to get rid of this ignorance ? This in and of itself is an interesting conversation. We can look at it if there is interest, as once again there are differences ( albeit slight) in the two schools aforementioned.
    Namaste

    I am sure you have patiently repeated and re-repeated the answer to this many times in the forum, and yet, it is new each time.

    I look forward to the answer - how to get rid of ignorance.

    Thank You
    om namah: shivAya
    _/\_
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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