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Thread: Kali and TripuraSundari

  1. #11
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    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Dear Viraja

    You are a sweet and wonderful devotee, and the mana (mind) and bhAvanA of a devotee have to be nurtured. So I am going to suggest something but really do not want to disturb your bhAv, so you can look at this in a detached way.

    Have you read LalitA-sahastranAma for LalitA tripurAsundarI?
    If you study this sahasranAma it will reveal Who and What She is.

    sAre bhaktonko merA praNAm

    jayo rAdhe govindo S rAdhe govindo
    shri KRshNa Chaittanno prabhu nittAnando
    hare kRshNa hare rAm shri rAdhe govindo
    joyo rAdhe govindo S S rAdhe govindo S S
    Dear Smaranam ji,

    Thank you for the kind words. This will be my assignment for today - I will look into Sri Lalitha Sahasranama.

    Regards,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  2. #12

    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    Pranam,
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I am in hopes you will give us the translation and your insight on the mantra offered:

    aditiḥ | dyauḥ | aditiḥ | antarikṣam | aditiḥ | mātā | saḥ | pitā | saḥ | putraḥ | viśve | devāḥ | aditiḥ | pañca | janāḥ | aditiḥ | jātam | aditiḥ | jani'tvam ||

    Would you also be kind enough to explain why virāma¹ (|) is used after each word-phrase ? Is this what you were talking about:
    Providing translation is an HDF norm, so thank you for reminding. As we know the Veda was preserved in many forms- one of them being the pada-pāṭha (wiki) where each word is clearly, separately spelled out. And that's why the separation "dandā" between the words.

    It is wrong to apply Sandhi rules (same which are used to create words from roots) to join together two or more words, as there is always a good chance of losing information because there may be more than one ways to un-sandhi the bigger word causing ambiguities in meaning - the exact opposite result of the intention behind Sanskrit. So, no I wouldn't say it was a big crime committed against Sanskrit (by joining words together) but certainly was an abuse. Now, coming to the translation, each of the words is in 1st vibhakti (nominative), so it reads--

    Aditi = Dyo (the Heavens) = Aditi = Antariksha (another important realm) = Aditi = Mātā (the Mother, Devi) = Aditi = Pitā (the Father, Brahmanaspati) = Aditi = viśve devāḥ ("All Gods") = Aditi = pañca janāḥ ("Five People", superior like the Pandava-s) = Aditi = jātam (whatever / whoever is born) = Aditi = jani'tvam (whatever / whoever is going to be born).

    A proper commentary will take a separate thread (apart from the suitability of the writer to comment on such rica), but in the context of the ongoing progress on HDF one thing must be mentioned:
    Aditi is not spoken of as "pervading" or "All-pervading", because She is "All-including", She is "All".

    Something that may interest you, the Rsi of this hymn- as per the anukramani (Vedic index)- is Gautama Rahu-gaNa. The word, "Rahu-gaNa" is of interest here because of the connection with Astrology, and its similarity with "Marud-gaNa".

    Rahu is indeed connected to Marut, apart from Vayu as discussed previously in that Jyotisha thread. I have something important to share, but stopped posting there because of lack of interest (particularly from some reputed practising Jyotishisi-s members here) in the topic.

    I've noticed that Hindu-s today are a judgmental lots, no harm in it, but the problem is that they judge things without understanding a subject properly and more than that are not even willing to give a listening ear to things out of their comfort jones.
    ********
    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste KT ji,

    An average Vaishnava understands Sita devi as 'born of Earth' -- since she was born a baby to Bhudevi and was obtained as a baby from the plough land of King Janaka. Besides, when Sita devi wants to go back to her mother (Earth), she calls out to Bhuma devi, the earth splits and down goes Sita devi. These are the only associations does Sita devi have with mother Bhuma, and Sita devi as such is not Bhooma devi. This is the average understanding.
    namaste Viraja-ji,
    Occam's razor applies in such cases: which means, to explain "n" number of facts, there should be minimum number of theories. You cannot have 10 facts explained by 10 theories.
    So when Sita is obviously connected with Prithvi (in RgVeda and Ramayana) then where is the need to invoke Tripurasundari?

    However, I have been told that Sita devi is an amsa of Sri Kamakshi Amman, also known as 'Tripurasundari devi'.
    There is this secret which I will share with you - and which will make life a lot easier in these regards- the Mahavidya-s are the manifestations of Kali (now one can get some feel of the depths of Shaktism, which moreover is totally along Vedic understanding, non-linearity, fractality, so on).

    Just as Durga is the "integration" of all Devi-s, similarly, there is this truth of the "differentiation" of each Devi. So Mahavidya-s are the output of the differentiation of Kali.

    Tripurasundari is technically Kali/ Lakshmi so as you see, it is very easy to confuse these things. Hinduism is a land mine for such casual syncretism.
    Ofcourse, I am aware this arises the question on Sri Rama then. If Sita Devi is Tripurasundari (Kamakshi), then how is it possible that Sri Rama is a Vishnu avatara alone since Kamakshi's husband is Sri Ekambareswara (Shiva)? To this question, as of today, I don't have an answer, I am still searching.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  3. #13
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    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste Ram,
    Namaste Ji,


    Elephant in the room (that everyone wants to talk about)


    That a Rishi and his wife the Rishika had the names PrajApati and Aditi respectively as a recorded history in a PurANa - in the grand overall scheme- only has the purpose of pointing to the deeper truth of Aditi and PrajApati implicit in the Veda.
    It seems I mistook Puranic people having the same name for Vedic Devas.

    only barrier (a very formidable one) being the understanding of the Vedic Sanskrit.
    Yes Ji,I do not know Vedic Sanskrit and it is quite different from classical Sanskrit.

    Just like why Shaiva-s don't talk about Shiva's mothers.


    Vedic terms are not understood at all, and there is also a tendency to twist to suit ignorant intent of preachers prevalent today (but surely fast losing their hold).
    I agree with your interpretation.How is it that non-sectarian Veda Bhasyakaras who lived thousands of years ago did not notice this and interpreted it as three-eyed?

    So, त्र्यम्बक = त्रि + अम्बक, Tryambaka = tri (three) + ambaka (of mother)
    Tryambaka, then means, “of three mothers”. Rudra has three mothers: ILa, DakshiNā and Saraswati, when He is seen to come/ take birth evolutionarily from the Antariksha realm.

    Who are the Devis ILa and DakshiNA?Is there any reference in the Vedas that names these three Devis as Sri Shiva's mothers?

    Also,there are many others Vedic mantras that say that Sri Shiva is self-manifest,the oldest of all,the eldest of all,the one before all etc and same things are
    said about Sri Vishnu(Sriman Narayana).

    Why is there an apparent contradiction present here,once he is said to be born by himself and at other places as you said has three mothers?

    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

  4. #14

    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    Namaste Ram,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ram116040 View Post
    Also,there are many others Vedic mantras that say that Sri Shiva is self-manifest,the oldest of all,the eldest of all,the one before all etc and same things are [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]said about Sri Vishnu(Sriman Narayana).

    Why is there an apparent contradiction present here,once he is said to be born by himself and at other places as you said has three mothers?

    This is the important most question to ponder in Hinduism, isn't it?

    In the journey from "Asat" to "Sat", we get to see two paths- the two languages-
    • The Lannguage of Morality

    • The language of Immortality


    The moral language is the language of evolution- it deals with good and bad, vice and virtue, dharma and adharma, etc - and assists us upto "moksha". No doubt, 99.99 % of the literature belongs to this group.

    Immortal Language - of amaratva- is on the other hand the perspective from an already fully realised standpoint.

    All gods are Swayambhu-s (on a given day any of them can be the seed to all the others). Those who are far from us seem to be more important when we are on our journey of evolution - again the moral language.

    But the immortal language knows that all these Swayambhu-s are equally great (a Rgvedic ricā specifically mentions this).
    *********
    *********

    Let us imagine, god A is the nearest to us, goddess B is slightly farther, C is farther still, D is still farther, and so on until god Z.

    Suppose we do the Bhakti of God H. We go through A, B, C, D, E, F and G to finally come to H. So, the Bhakta says, "H is the highest among A to G." And he is right in terms of the moral language. He may even do the compositing and say, |H| = (A+ B+ C+ D+ E+ F+ G+ H) and that A, B etc are "Demi-gods" compared to |H|.

    Is |H| real? Yes, She is. She is real and therefore shows up Her form (formless included) to Her devotee in the way the devotee is able to comprehend with.

    The immortal language thoroughly acknowledges H and |H| in Her full glory, but also is keen enough to understand that A, B, C etc are also equally great.

    I think this symbol play is demonstrative of the thing I am trying to explain.
    ********
    ********

    Just to make it more interesting, let us ponder the following:
    • The immortal language giving most emphasis on God A because it is through Him/ Her that we receive everything.

    • What is the view on God Z? Is Z the *Supreme* in both the languages? No, not in the immortal language, because the "trail" is "circular" and we come back to where we started- though with a fully immortally realised consciousness!


    ********
    ********
    I know the write up here may be a bit dense, but please do take the trouble to understand this with some effort.


    KT
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  5. #15
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    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    It is wrong to apply Sandhi rules (same which are used to create words from roots) to join together two or more words, as there is always a good chance of losing information because there may be more than one ways to un-sandhi the bigger word causing ambiguities in meaning - the exact opposite result of the intention behind Sanskrit.
    Let me offer a few ideas from another point of view... this is not to contest what you have offered, but again, another view.

    This ṛṣi, gautamaḥ ( some spell gotama) rāhūgaṇaḥ was one of the saptaṛṣi-s ( 7 seers) of this age; he is the son of rāhūgaṇaḥ, from the family of angiras (āñgirāsa). Needless to say angiras was considered one of the mind-born sons of brahmā.

    The notion of rāhu and its alignment to that of jyotish is debatable in this application. The word in-and-of-itself means to take hold of, to grasp, to desire vehemently. So, to decipher this name one needs to look at it in this manner: rāhū +gaṇaḥ , and I will leave that for another time.

    The ṛg ved saṁhita 1.89.10
    aditirdyauraditirantarikṣamaditirmātā sa pitā sa putraḥ |
    viśve devā aditiḥ pañca janā aditirjātamaditirjanitvam ||

    We know this is from the ṛg ved, as the ṛg veda is called saṁhita. What does this mean ? Saṁhita means uninterrupted, joined, put together, composed.
    It is the approach of the ṛg ved to be ‘composed’ in a flowing manner, uninterrupted. The stops virāma¹ (|) are there for our use; to grasp a section, to count off a meter (chandas). etc.
    Yet the offer is saṁhita, flowing of verse uninterrupted. This is to imply and offer the wholeness of the mantra and of the subject matter. That then leads us to aditi. This verse is the indelible mark of this notion of wholeness.

    We know aditi is defined as boundlessness , immensity , inexhaustible abundance , unimpaired condition , perfection.
    • She is the mother of the āditya-s
    • the mother of the viśve deva-s that are called out in this verse.
    • We can also look at aditi like this a + diti. The term diti means cutting , splitting, dividing. And the ‘a’ as a prefix means ‘not’ like 'un' in English.
    • Hence this a + diti means not divided, not split, whole, full (pūra). She then is wholeness, fullness, the all and everything, infinite.
    So, with that in mind I’d like to take a stab at the translation.

    Aditi ( this wholeness, fullness, infinite) is heaven, the mid-world (antarikṣam) , she is mother, she is father she is son |
    She (aditi) is the viśve deva-s, she is the 5 people¹ (pañca janā), she is all that is born and yet to be born ||

    By saying she is mother suggests multiple meanings; the mother of all that exists, or will exist, and at the same time
    the result of that birth; that is, she is the womb and the seed and the result. Mother also infers the field of the tattva-s , or the elements that make up all of creation. If She is mother and father she is both śiva and śakti, and that which results from the two ( creation on all levels) i.e. the son.

    Now in my opinion there is a subtle idea that is offered by the ṛṣi when he says all that is born and yet to be born. This is my conjecture here.
    Everything we see that has form (this too includes thoughts and ideas) is born – so she too is the stuff of mind; and all that is yet to be born is the unmanifest or the pure level of Being . Said another way since she is wholeness itself She is all that is or could be - vyāvahātika + pāramārthika (the manifest or the world of diversity + the transcendent).

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • virāma (|) – is a ‘stop’ , halt; It is = to the period( .) found in English grammar
    • 5 people (pañca janā) – considered the beings on the 5 planes : anna, prāṇa, mana, vijnāna some call mahas, and ānanda.
      • This is inferred in the ṛg ved verse 1.7.9 or the pañca kṣhiti and reviewed in the śīkṣā vallī (section) of the taittirīya upaniṣad.
      • Now there is a more mundane view of these 5 as the 4 castes + 1 ( the niāda-s) which I do not subscribe to.
    Last edited by yajvan; 02 October 2014 at 05:59 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16

    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    Pranam,
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    The notion of rāhu and its alignment to that of jyotish is debatable in this application. The word in-and-of-itself means to take hold of, to grasp, to desire vehemently. So, to decipher this name one needs to look at it in this manner: rāhū +gaṇaḥ , and I will leave that for another time.
    I also understand that this is debatable (else, what is the point?), however:
    • It is unlikely that Rahu has much to do with outside Astrology. Possible, yes, but that requires special pleading.

    • Rahu is obviously not implying any negative connotation as in a Rsi's name. This simply means Rahu is not what the modern Jyotishis want it to be.


    However I am not interested in this topic, but stopped to mention it thinking it could be of interest to some. To build up an argument for Rahu's real nature, though, needs a mention from another mainstream Hindu text, which deals with this question at some length.

    [*]We can also look at aditi like this a + diti. The term diti means cutting , splitting, dividing. And the ‘a’ as a prefix means ‘not’ like 'un' in English. [*]Hence this a + diti means not divided, not split, whole, full ([/COLOR]pūra). She then is wholeness, fullness, the all and everything, infinite.
    There is another view that does not regard Aditi as built up from diti. Aditi is supposed to be an original word ("a" in the start does not mean it has to be a prefix). I like to think of the word as "from the start (ad) to the end (iti)". Like the Greeks used to say, "alfa and omega". Aditi can be likened to the Sanskrit's 1st vowel "a" itself, just as Prajapati, as shown by you in a recent post, is likened to the 1st Sanskrit consonant "ka".


    Now in my opinion there is a subtle idea that is offered by the ṛṣi when he says all that is born and yet to be born. This is my conjecture here.
    Everything we see that has form (this too includes thoughts and ideas) is born – so she too is the stuff of mind; and all that is yet to be born is the unmanifest or the pure level of Being . Said another way since she is wholeness itself She is all that is or could be - vyāvahātika + pāramārthika (the manifest or the world of diversity + the transcendent).
    Thank you for this explanation. I suppose we should make use of the word, the Devi's name, more often (because it has been given to us) instead of looking in some wrong directions.




    P.S.: @Ram, my detailed reply to your post will appear at post#13.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  7. #17
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    Re: Kali and TripuraSundari

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee123 View Post
    Learned Sadhaks

    Is there any compulsory reason for one to worship Kali or Tripurasundari or any mahavidya for attaining self-realization?

    Why cant we worship Siva directly?There are lot of saiva vidyas which gives way to reach self-realization

    http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Saiva_Vidyas
    There are no compulsions. All the deities are various aspects of your soul. All paths lead to self-realization.
    A few personal experiences: chronicles-of-a-sadhak.blogspot.com

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