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Thread: great (profound) questions...

  1. #31
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    namaste,

    perhaps with time I will address the questions you pose in a more exhaustible manner.
    So, within the last few posts we have ventured from a birthless and deathless universe, to notion of the a hare with horns, and now we are deposited into the conversation of awareness.
    Yet, there never has been any disposition to suggest awareness is or is not. While many use awareness, others use the term consciousness and still others say there is something quite before the two. But for now let's use the term 'pure awareness' as a broad brush stoke to include all 3 items.
    So here is my position: Everything that I see , including the process of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, thinking, feeling, walking, and any other form of perception or motive force is none other then this pure awarenss. This is not a unique position and I give no grand insight here. Yet the notion is this: if I say that the univese is not, which is the expression of awareness, I am saying awareness is not, and as said before that is to be rejected. All and everything is an expression of this. So, my position has been consistent from post to post.

    The jeweler when looking at a ring does not see the design but peers into the gold that makes the ring. Hence all rings, and jewels have a common thread of the gold. The wise do the same. They do not pay much attention to all the differences the universe has to offer, but sees the unity of the core quality of awarenss that permeates it all. They see pure awareness. They also see the universe as an extention of their own Being, pure awareness. There is no-thing that it is not.What could be more simpler ? Yet for the human condition we deal in differerntiated consciousness and the answer lies in undiffererntiated consciousness. Herein resides the pickle of one's direct experience vs. what the wise tell us.

    To suggest that this pure awareness is motionless - my retort would be ' who then just said this ? '. If it is motionless yet I am able to voice it, think it, there is the vibration of sound or thought forms coming from this perfect awareness. If all is this pure awareness but yet I am able to reflect upon it, reverse the thinking process and go to subtler levels of it, can I really contend that it is motionless? Are my vibrations outside of this pure awareness ? This is not possible.

    There is much more that can be said but I will not pursue it as it seems it will just stimulate another conversation and take the overall post of 'great questions' off the mark.

    iti sivam
    Last edited by yajvan; 28 October 2014 at 08:11 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #32
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    There is a very interesting passage (śloka) found in the tantrālokaḥ¹. This passage ties in the knowledge found in haṭhayoga, patañjali’s yogadarśana, bhāgavad gītā, and the upāya-s ( methods) found within the vijñana-bhairava kārikā-s of kaśmir śaivism. It says:

    na divā pūjayeddevaṁ
    rātra naiva ca naiva ca |
    arcayeddevadeveśaṁ
    dinarātriparikṣaye ||

    What does this śloka say ( in general) ?
    do not (na) worship (pūja) the divine (devaṁ) by day (divā) or by night (rātri) ; the divine is to be worshiped at the meeting point of day (dina) and night (dinarātriparikṣaye) ||

    Now this causes many people great pause ( as it did me some time ago). What are you telling me ? I am not to give praise to the divine during the day or night ? How can this be? Only give one’s worship during this meeting point ( dina = cut in half, and means ‘day’) ?

    There must be more to this, no ? I will offer my view co-mingled with the wisdom of svāmī lakṣman-jū and perhaps we can find value in this offering.


    iti śivaṁ
    words
    • tantrālokaḥ – this is a work by abhinavagupta-ji and is a ‘big deal’ within tṛka and non dual kaśmir śaivism.
      • It is the ~cream~ of 64 ( non dual ) bhairava āgamas ; it contains 37 chapters or āhnika-s, containing 5,838 and ½ śloka-s; From this work, abhinavagupta-ji boiled it down to an offering called the tantrasāraḥ or the essence (sāraḥ) of the tantrālokaḥ.
      • I have several books , yet I am not in possession of all 37 chapters; that is I am a novice on this overall work. As time goes on I am blessed here-and-there with other chapters, translations, and śloka-s from this fine work.
    Last edited by yajvan; 13 November 2014 at 07:26 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #33

    Re: great (profound) questions...

    Pranams Yajvan ji,

    I also read this part and considered the meaning

    What does this śloka say ( in general) ?
    do not (na) worship (pūja) the divine (devaṁ) by day (divā) or by night (rātri) ; the divine is to be worshiped at the meeting point of day (dina) and night (dinarātriparikṣaye)
    Could it perhaps be symbolic language that it is pointing to the middle way, the non dual mind, is this where real worship starts, no asking or thanking based on material relative forms of worship which is only dealing with conditioned self preservation, but just being in the middle the state of transcendence.

    Ys

    Md

  4. #34
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    What does this śloka say ( in general) ?
    do not (na) worship (pūja) the divine (devaṁ) by day (divā) or by night (rātri) ; the divine is to be worshiped at the meeting point of day (dina) and night (dinarātriparikṣaye) ||
    As many know the wise speak to us indirectly (praāikayā), though hints and symbols (lakaā). They do this for a few reasons but will leave this for another time.

    The hint in the śloka above is day, night and the period in between (madhya as middle and dina as cut – as in the full day cut in between).
    Now who owns this day and night ? None other than the sun and the moon. Within haṭhayoga¹ this is the sun and moon and is another way of suggesting balancing the breath. This too is offered within patañjali’s yogadarśana and within vijñana-bhairava kārikā-s.

    When we’re talking sun and moon we are alluding to the notion of the following:
    • piṅgalā – the right side or solar nāḍi
    • iḍā - the left side or lunar nāḍi ; not to be confused with idā meaning ‘now, at this moment’
    So, we are talking of the inward breath and the outward breath in which each and every human utilizes every minute of every day ( the notion of ‘continuous’ will be used in the next post for the information coming from the bhāgavad gītā).

    The inward breath and outward breath within the vijñana-bhairava kārikā-s go by the name of jīva and prāṇa; both together are considered two points or visarga¹ (:) or the breath cycles throughout the day and night. To the ‘purest’ who may say the 2 breaths are also called prāṇa and apāna I say yes, you are correct.

    Here’s the śloka decoded. It informs us not to worship ( give one’s awareness, one-pointedness) to the inward or outward breath as a technique, but to place one’s awareness where the breath neither rises or falls.
    That is, the in-between breath or madhya, where no breath occurs. It is neither in or out but at a gap, a pause. This gap, this space or void the ‘in between’ condition is where one puts their one-pointed attention, uninterrupted awareness (puja). The native’s worship in this practice grooms wholeness, fullness and bhairava¹ is revealed.

    But yajvan why did you mention piṅgalā and iḍā ? These channels nāḍi-s¹ we know are purified via attentive breath (prāṇayam) , yet in-between these two what do we have ? The central channel or suṣumnā ( used here as the term madhya) is groomed. When one’s undivided attention ( called nirvikalpatayā¹) remains there without effort of strain, then pure awareness blossoms.

    But where does the bhāgavad gītā fit into this line of thinking ? We will look in the next post.

    iti śivaṁ
    words
    • haṭha = persistence; by force. Yet when we look at it like this ha+ṭha :
      • ha = sky, heaven; śiva and therefore the sun by association
      • ṭha is the moon's disk
    • visarga - more on visarga at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=121709#post121709
    • bhirava = bha + ra + va
      • bha is bharaṇa भरण - maintaining , supporting , nourishing
      • ra is acquiring or possessing ; this is the only word (IMO) then that may apply for an approximation of ~withdrawal~ as it is rooted in rā which = acquiring , possessing ;
        • rava is roaring, yelling; it is rooted in ru रु- to make any noise or sound i.e. to roar , bellow , howl , yelp , cry , sing, bee's buzzing, etc.
      • vaṇa वण a sound , noise
      • va is vamana वमन emitting , emission
    • nirvikalpatayā = nir+vikalpa+tayā
      • nir = nis = niḥ = within
      • vikalpa – between two kapla-s ; the distinction of perception between the two
      • tayā = ta+yā = crossing and attaining ( or 'of the way')
    • nāḍi = tube, pipe, channel
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #35
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté


    What does this śloka say ( in general) ?
    do not (na) worship (pūja) the divine (devaṁ) by day (divā) or by night (rātri) ; the divine is to be worshiped at the meeting point of day (dina) and night (dinarātriparikṣaye) ||
    Before we pursue the bhāgavad gītā implications I mentioned, I thought the following would also interest the reader.

    The post above offered one view that aligns to a more deeper significance of one’s worship.
    Yet too , there is another view that many practice today that is not opposed to what was offered in the last post
    but more on timing … Let me explain.

    The junction point of day and night is considered saṁdhi – the junction point. We know of 4. Dawn, dusk, noon and mid-night.
    It has been a standard practice for one to pursue their worship, their sādhana during these periods.


    Many have heard of these times and the most popular is brahmā-muhūrta¹ which occurs just before dawn – let’s call sunrise 6 A.M. for this example.
    Brahmā-muhūrta consists of 2 muhūrta-s ( 48 min x 2 = 96 min) before sunrise ; some count it as 4 ghaṭīkā, yet the overall time still = 96 min.
    Note this period of brahmā-muhūrta is made of 2 muhūrta-s . One is brahmā and the other is samudram ( or samudraḥ pending its grammatical use). This word means ocean, the aerial waters ( the ~ocean~ of the sky).

    Mid-day is is vidhi (insight) muhūrta. We then proceed to sun-set ( 6 P.M.) and the auspicious muhūrta-s at that junction point is varuna and aryaman. The bhaga muhūrta that occurs right at this 6 P.M. sunset is considered inauspicious, yet I have not found it to be the case.
    The mid-night muhūrta is considered vidhātṛ muhūrta. This is another name for brahma. Some say it is the name of one of His sons. The reader is welcomed to look up all 30 muhūrta-s on the web for their review.

    These junction points (saṁdhi) are considered auspicious for one’s practice, sādhana.


    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • 1 muhūrta = 48 minutes ; it is 1/15th of a day period ( 12 hours) or 1/30th of the total day+night or 24 hours
      Each of the 30 muhūrta-s have a name.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #36

    Re: great (profound) questions...

    Dear Yajvan ji,


    Can this also be interpreted as : the moment between waking and sleep ?
    waking : Jaagrat.
    Sleep : Sushupti
    Jaagrat Sushupti : The wakeful Deep Sleep State... Ramana Maharshi used this to mean Abiding as Self !

    When one just wakes up ... there is alertness ... but the world has not fully arisen ... at that moment ... one is naturally Abiding as Self !!

    Do you understand what i mean ?

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

  7. #37
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    But where does the bhāgavad gītā fit into this line of thinking ?
    To set the stage one needs to be aware ( or reminded) of a few things.
    Arjuna (guḍākeśa) asks, how shall I know (vidyām) you ? (bhāgavad gītā 10.17); kṛṣṇa-jī responds , I am the Self, seated in the heart of all living beings (bhāgavad gītā 10.20)

    So, the Supreme is no further then one’s own Self (ātmān). We are reminded again and again on how to come to this realization ( this remembrance )…
    • Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, worshiping Me. Being completely absorbed in ātmānam ( Self or Me), surely you will come to Me. (bhāgavad gītā 9.34)
    • Therefore you should always think of Me ( and fight) . When your mind and intellect area absorbed in Me, to Me alone you will undoubtedly come. (bhāgavad gītā 8.7)
    From the post above, I wrote:
    So, we are talking of the inward breath and the outward breath in which each and every human utilizes every minute of every day ( the notion of ‘continuous’ will be used in the next post for the information coming from the bhāgavad gītā).
    With the gap, saṁdhi – the junction point, between each breath one is setting the conditions for pure awareness ( Self/ ātmān/Being) to be experienced.
    This is how one can always be attentive to kṛṣṇa-jī . Why ? The Self is within us and the Self ( so says kṛṣṇa-jī) is Him. With this we can find Being/Self/pure awareness between each breath, within saṁdhi ( the gap).

    We are informed that we breath 21,600¹ times per day on average. This saṁdhi occurs between each breath – between the inward and outward breath. It is in the gap that we can groom pure awareness. Then this continuity of awareness begins to grow which = constantly engaged in pure awareness (kṛṣṇa-jī). This fulfills arjuna’s question , how shall I know (vidyām) you ? We will know Him by our Self ( which is none other then Him) and comes to us by pure awareness that is groomed between each breath when done with uninterrupted awareness (pūja).
    This connects all the points that were mentioned in post 32 above.

    iti śivaṁ
    • 21,600 = 15 breaths per min = 900 breaths per hour X 24 hrs. = 21,600 times in a total cycle of one day.
    Last edited by yajvan; 15 November 2014 at 01:39 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #38
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    I wrote,

    … by pure awareness that is groomed between each breath when done with uninterrupted awareness (pūja).

    One may ask, how does uninterrupted awareness = pūja ?

    Let’s look at this term pūja like this: +ja
    • = to sift , discriminate , discern. It is our awareness when actively engaged that discriminates between this and that.
      The term use in post 34 was nirvikalpatayā¹ ;the central term within this word was vikalpa - the distinction of perception between the two.
      • So, with this ‘pū” it is our awareness that is attentive, being engaged in the perception of distinction.
      • Yet this ‘pū’ has a second definition: to flow off clearly. It is the flow ( typically said of soma) , to flow off.
    • ja = produced or caused by; born . Yet this term is rooted in ‘jan’ ; jan = ‘to become , be’ . It ( being) is a continuous state of existence .
    From these terms we can see that pūja is where one’s awareness is flowing and discriminating; engaged in perception within our continuous condition of existence. Just as one ‘worships’ one’s mind is actively alert with awareness, feelings, admiration, devotion , to that which is being honored or adored.

    Like that, we are engaged in uninterrupted awareness – flowing (pū) and this awareness is ever refreshed or born again and again ( ja)

    iti śivaṁ


    words
    • nirvikalpatayā = nir+vikalpa+tayā
      • nir = nis = niḥ = within
      • vikalpa – between two kapla-s ; the distinction of perception between the two
      • tayā = ta+yā = crossing and attaining ( or 'of the way')
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #39
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    A a simple but profound question was posed to rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi: If the Self is itself aware why am I not aware of it even ( right) now ?

    Before I offer what rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi-ji offered, let me rewrite the question with just one word ('the') removed:
    If Self is itself aware why am I not aware of it even (right) now ?

    This helps (or really, pushes) our mind from the notion of SELF as being an object. That is, if I say ' the Being' then the mind latches on to the notion of looking for an entity or some entity by saying 'the'. 'The' is a determiner . That is , it is used especially before a noun, with a specifying or particularizing effect ( localized and specific) as opposed to the indefinite, infinite, and unbounded.

    Examples: the book you gave to me, or come into the house. it can be used to used to mark a proper noun, natural phenomenon i.e. the King, the mountain, the ship, the building, the dog, cat, place, bird, house , car, etc. All these things are finite in nature and it triggers the mind to look for something, some entity that is localized, bound with time, space, size, location. See the point ?

    So if I say 'Being' I am no longer talking of an entity. If I say Self I am not talking of the Self of someone. If that is understood then rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi-ji's answer will be better comprehended. Of which I will offer in the next post and wait a bit to see if anyone wishes to probe a bit more on the notion of
    'the' when applied in grammar and its affects of doing its job ( localizing something albeit a person , place or thing )

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #40
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    Re: great (profound) questions...

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    let me rewrite the question with just one word ('the') removed: If Self is itself aware why am I not aware of it even (right) now ?
    It seems I left out a point that the reader may find useful... that is, I am expecting the HDF reader to have a ~handle~ on the definition of ‘Self’ and therefore would understand the question posited to rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi-ji.

    The term ‘Self’ gives many consternation. It is used often yet many have somewhat of a farraginous¹ understanding of the term. Let me stay with rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi-ji’s point-of-view offered by David Godman¹. He says ( and I agree to the elegance of the terms used here) Self , or the real ‘I’, is contrary to perceptible experience, not an experience of individuality but of non-personal all-inclusive awareness.

    I find this quite compact and filled with additional information that can help us (me) understand Self much better. How so ? It is not to be confused with individual self we know as ego (
    ahaṁkāra), that changes ( happy, sad, angry, delighted) that comes and goes ( wake-dream-sleep), expands and contracts and likes to be fed on a regular basis ( oh look at me! I am important, I am brilliant, I am nothing).

    But one asks, what is it? Because of being human ( the city of eight¹) we want something we can literally grasp, observe, see i.e. things within a boundary so the intellect can grasp it, clutch it. Yet based upon the definition offered above Self is ‘all inclusive awareness’. That means it is the awareness that is used for all of one’s perceptions ( seeing, smelling, touch, taste, smell, cognition, intellectual grasp, etc) and you ( human being) are asking to look at the thing that ‘looks’ and makes things aware.

    The wise say it (Self) is the eye behind the eye, the ear behind the ear. What does that mean ? It is the awareness that allows the senses to function. Kind-a-like electricity . It is electricity that powers everything, yet it is not the light, nor mix-master, nor the electric car, or vacuum cleaner , but it is that power that enables all these devices to function. It is consciousness that enables the senses and intellect, etc. to function. They in and of themselves are a mass of flesh or a bundle of neurons. That is why the definition ‘non-personal all-inclusive awareness’ is accurate.

    It (Self) is no one-thing, it has no boundaries. Saying it is non-personal suggests it cannot be cornered to be any one thing. So, now the additional argument.
    The human observer says, hey wait one minute, I see bodies ( humans and animals ) everywhere – they’re innumerable, how can the Self be considered non-personal when there are so many bodies walking and talking on this earth ?
    Well, rāmaṇa mahaṛṣi-ji informs us that ‘if’ you are stuck in the idea that ‘I am the body’ and it is accepted to be fact, then there are multiple selves. This idea vanishes when the Self reveals itSelf to itSelf ( this is from the kaṭhopaniṣat and muṇḍakopaniṣat)¹ because when this occurs there is only Self, there is no two (advaita – having no duplicate). If there is no-two how can there be multiple selves? How can there be multiple bodies of humans ?

    इतिशिवं
    iti śivaṁ


    terms used
    • farraginous – mixed; miscellaneous
    • David Godman – more on David here : http://davidgodman.org/
    • city of 8 = puryaṣṭaka is the 8 parts/components. The 8 are the tanmātra-s, buddhi (intellect), ahaṁkāra (ego) , and manas (mind).
    • kaṭhopaniṣat = kaṭha upaniṣad 1.2.23 ; muṇḍaka upaniṣad 3.2.2
      • kaṭha - this can mean ~ distress~ ; if one reads the story of naciketus (naciketaḥ) one can see the application.
      • The term also means the pupil or follower of kaṭhah, a brahmin. This applies because the kaṭha upaniṣad is aligned to kāṭhaka saṃhitā found within the kṛṣṇa yajurveda; The composer was kaṭhah a pupil of vaiśampāyana who was a narrator of the mahābhārata and therefore a pupil of vyāsa-ji .
      • Note that kathā is conversation , speech , talking together and applies as naciketaḥ and yamaḥ is the core conversation of this upaniṣad ( upa-ni-ṣad – come sit close to the truth)

    • muṇḍaka – means ‘shaved (as in shaved head) or shorn’ – this can mean a few things; this upaniṣad is for the shaved-ones the sādhu.
      • The term also means ‘lopping-off’ , as in lopping off the top of a tree. In this case the idea is ‘lopping off’ ignorance.
      • Now some say when you cut off the hair ( on the head) or you lop-off branches of a tree, then energy/ śakti is directed there. It is as if śakti goes into ‘replacement’ mode or growth mode to get that area aligned back to ‘whole’. It is directing śakti up to the head. Some do this on śiva-rātri ( this occurs monthly) or mahā-śivarātri ( next one is the 24th – 25th February 2017)

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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