Women and Western clothes

[Anirudh]

Namaste Viraja ji

I can give you many examples including the hygienic factor to drive home my point. Then this will become a literary competition.

We think literature as something like a fairy tale born in poet's mind. And the ideas represented are all fantasies. But that's not the case. Literature represent the mindset of society, solutions to problems faced, may be bit decorated, but not out of mind.

Why Ayur Veda written thousands of years ago can solve that can't be addressed by modern medicine? When our mind is ready to accept Ayur Veda why it is not ready to see the scriptural excellence in a different light?

Isn't the conditioning due to age old slavery?

Mathematics and Language is like our two eyes...

We must accept one basic thing. World might have changed, but, the problems faced by humans has not changed.

Then one might argue why not change the solution because the world was changed? I will ask them, has our prayers changed?

Though humans have achieved many things that wasn't possible earlier, still he find himself helpless when death decides to embrace him.

What am I arriving at? Kindly do not underestimate our literature.

For a poet B G is a great source to learn Sanskrit. And for spritual seeker the same B G is key to his search.
Why? Because unlike us who give into materialistic desires those who wrote all lived a noble life.
You yourself had informed that our Achaarya(s) crossed thousands miles without the luxury of modern transport, yet they gave those gems, and we all with our modern inventions are still finding it difficult to crack them.

[Viraja]

Dear Anandinii ji,

The idea that the woman needs to take responsibility for the man's reactions is to say that men have no responsibility for their own reactions or behavior. Worse, it implies no man should even be asked to control because it is somehow impossible, that in this regard men are as beasts who cannot possibly control their instincts. Is this true? Of course not, it's the worst kind of untruth and perpetuates the problem on both sides. I agree with Anirudh in this. This kind of thinking have been imposed on women for centuries by men who simply do not want to have to control themselves so they blame women. Women are not wanton seductresses and succubi who have to carefully watch and hide their every movement because some guy might see assume it's an invitation and lose all self control.

Actually, why me (as well as many who hold similar views including Yesudas) might say women have to be modest (in their attire) is because, irrespective of who is right (or wrong), it is ultimately women who suffer the consequences. Not for any other purpose.

Sensuality is a very tricky point, and any culture is an example of this. We might argue the West offers better freedom for women in that people (men) don't look at women, but I think this perception is wrong. It is only because the man and woman of the West have been told right from the beginning 'to not to look' and that 'it is rude to look', many do not have this behavior. But, you simply see the statistics on how many Western men will want to see Kate Upton in the Swimsuit issue and other similar models, the count will be in Billions. This is because sensuality of the female body is a fact and no culture is really protected against it. So while in India or elsewhere, we can say that women should wear anything and not be ridiculed in any way for it, we cannot control the normal human tendency to atleast 'look'. By this, I never said that men have right to misbehave, I am only saying that owing to sensuality being the inherent nature of female body, no one can completely stop men from 'looking'.

Somehow I do not subscribe to the view that male body is equally sensual. If it is sensual, we cannot see them walk around barely clad, especially in the upper portion of the body, even in somewhat conservative society as India.

But as I said in the OP, perceptions could really vary. As I said somewhere in my reply to EM ji, I too strongly feel that India should develop to the point that people and women especially, feel responsible for preserving their culture and heritage, but at the same time, offer others freedom to live and dress as they want and choose to be.

@Anirudh ji,

If you have literature references, please post them. I am not convinced that Indian women wore a 'bra' type of attire.

Also, honestly, I feel very disappointed that when issue of Western clothes on women should arise, one should say that the most beautiful, elegant and modest sari that Indian women of today wear is somehow 'brought on by invaders' and that somehow true freedom and broad-mindedness should somehow be procured only by embracing Western clothes! The vast majority of the West does not hold this view towards other cultures! For example, sometime back there was a huge furor in America from schools introducing Yoga classes.

Thanks friends,

Viraja

[Aanandinii]

Namaste Dear Viraja ji,

Thank you for not taking offense to my little rant last night. If I may reply, hopefully less strongly...

Actually, why me (as well as many who hold similar views including Yesudas) might say women have to be modest (in their attire) is because, irrespective of who is right (or wrong), it is ultimately women who suffer the consequences. Not for any other purpose.

Respectfully, your argument is flawed. Are the only women who get harassed, "eve-teased", groped and worse, are they all only women immodestly dressed or in western clothes while in an eastern country? If yes, then your argument would be sound, but we know that the answer is no.

Women do end up getting the consequence and that is why, as I stress, one must use their own judgment and try to not put themselves in bad situations. But even then, it is not always a help. Women are harassed regardless of dress, this is statistically known. As many, if not more, women who dress conservatively are abused in these ways. Even women who wear Abaya or Burqua get treated in these ways. The problem is not dress, it is that this behavior is A) not discouraged or punished consistently and B) a society that looks down on women as sexual property instead of as people in their own right. Harassment and abuse are not sexual/sensual in nature, they are aggressive in nature and only serve to assert dominance through threat and violence.

Sensuality is a very tricky point, and any culture is an example of this. We might argue the West offers better freedom for women in that people (men) don't look at women, but I think this perception is wrong. It is only because the man and woman of the West have been told right from the beginning 'to not to look' and that 'it is rude to look', many do not have this behavior. But, you simply see the statistics on how many Western men will want to see Kate Upton in the Swimsuit issue and other similar models, the count will be in Billions. This is because sensuality of the female body is a fact and no culture is really protected against it. So while in India or elsewhere, we can say that women should wear anything and not be ridiculed in any way for it, we cannot control the normal human tendency to at least 'look'. By this, I never said that men have right to misbehave, I am only saying that owing to sensuality being the inherent nature of female body, no one can completely stop men from 'looking'.

I would argue there's no trickyness here and you are misunderstanding what people are taught here in the west. It's not at all that we are taught "not to look" and that "looking is wrong", in fact that is completely false outside of a few orthodox christian sects.

We are taught that People will look, that it's natural. In fact those men and women who dress especially scantily often want people to look. We are also taught that People will have physical and bio-chemical reactions to what they see, especially men as neurologically speaking men are very visually driven, this is also natural and okay.

But we are also taught that just because someone may create a specific physical/chemical reaction in you, it is not some kind of open invitation to act on that reaction, and that no one has a "right" to anyone else simply because one may feel a physical impulse towards another. People are not property, not objects of lust or desire, they are People and Individuals with the same rights as everyone else.

Thus, it is acting on one's physical impulses that is wrong, not that one might have such impulses or reactions. An individual should maintain self control over such impulses, remain mindful and present, and show the same respect for all others - regardless of dress or any other physical appearance - that they would want to be shown to themselves. Presence of mind, mindfulness, self-control over physical instincts and urges, respect for others. Hmm, strange but that sounds a lot like some teachings I've read recently. Go figure.

I'm not saying the west is all that great at this either, we still have this kind of crime, but we also seem to take it a bit more seriously, talk about it, prosecute it and we keep trying to do better. Did you know there are places here that have co-ed (unisex) bathrooms and showers and people aren't attacked all the time in them? This is the crux of understanding that wearing a Tank Top or Bikini isn't an overt invitation to every guy who looks.

Somehow I do not subscribe to the view that male body is equally sensual. If it is sensual, we cannot see them walk around barely clad, especially in the upper portion of the body, even in somewhat conservative society as India.

I consider this to be one of the fun double-standards we see everywhere in male-dominated societies (sorry, guys. Not hating, but it's true.). And as an aside, in all honesty, most men today just don't look all that great and sensual bare-chested. When that is the case, sure, no sensuality at all. On occasion I've wanted to ask a guy to please put his shirt back on... and there are plenty of women who probably wouldn't look all that great either, if they were to be given the option of going topless. Talk about killing sensuality dead... LOL

You talked about Swimsuit Issues of magazines and female stars in them where women pose. There are plenty of examples of the same thing only men posing for women. Starting with People Magazine's yearly "Sexyest Man Alive" issue, which always sells out so fast it's hard to get one, we could go down the line to DNA Magazine, Men Magazine, Playgirl, etc... Women are not as visually driven as men so we have less of it, but most women's mags have "Hottest Guy" articles every now and again, even Oprah. And what about shows like "The Bachelorette"? (I don't watch it, but unfortunately have caught some moments while looking for something to watch) Usually when the bachelors who are there to court her are introduced, there's a part where they all take off as much cloth as possible - starting with shirts - and show themselves off. Sensuality.

Here's a thought. I won't provide the link, but go to google images and search for this: "shahrukh khan dil de disco om shanti om". In fact, go to you tube and watch the video for specific scenes.

Yes there are a lot of women in it too but ignoring them - are you going to tell me you don't see the images of him oiled up and dripping like that, especially in the water scene, as Sensuality in male form?

But as I said in the OP, perceptions could really vary. As I said somewhere in my reply to EM ji, I too strongly feel that India should develop to the point that people and women especially, feel responsible for preserving their culture and heritage, but at the same time, offer others freedom to live and dress as they want and choose to be.

I think we agree here. Preserving heritage and culture is great. Preserving traditional dress, ritual and wisdom is necessary and I agree totally. But these are good aspects of culture. Negative aspects that cause harm are another thing altogether, those need to be left by the wayside so we can grow towards being wiser and higher people.

In the end it comes down to teaching both our girl and boy children to take responsibility for themselves and not take undue risks as a part of that, and teaching them to respect each other as equals and not dehumanize or objectify each other.

In this respect, goodness knows the whole world has a looooong way to go.

Namaste,
It is comforting to have some company.
I too am passionate about some things and do get agitated when the right buttons are pushed.
Pranam.

Namaste Believer ji,
Thank you for your kind words. Too true. Perhaps one day I will succeed in getting rid of my buttons and just being.
Practice, practice, practice. I'm getting there.

~Pranam

[Believer]

Namaste Aanandini,

I see a change in your location to 'Anāhata'.
Did you move?

Perhaps one day I will succeed in getting rid of my buttons and just being.
Practice, practice, practice.[/FONT]

I, on the other hand do not want to get rid of all those buttons. When a person uses the Arabic 'f-word' and I request them to please not use it, and the next week they do it again, as if to mock me, I want to get agitated, and I never ever want to eliminate that as one of my hot buttons. But that is me.

I hope the moderators understand my anguish!

Pranam.

[Viraja]

Dear Aanandinii ji,

You have offered me some wonderful thoughts and insights to think about. As I said elsewhere, my conditioning while young to 'practice modesty' is at play here, I think. My POV is not really based on promoting male-domination, but actually to state the right fact, I view men, their roles and responsibilities both within the family as well as at the society at large to be different from that of a woman, and I see this modest clothing more of the role of a woman. I reinstate, this could be my cultural up-bringing. I see a lot of value in what you offer here, honestly, I will read them again and again. Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Viraja

[Aanandinii]

Namaste Believer ji,

Namaste Aanandini,
I see a change in your location to 'Anāhata'.
Did you move?

No, it's more of a spiritual aspiration/metaphor. I'm still physically in the vicinity of Boston, though the older I get the more I start seriously considering a move somewhere warmer...

I, on the other hand do not want to get rid of all those buttons. When a person uses the Arabic 'f-word' and I request them to please not use it, and the next week they do it again, as if to mock me, I want to get agitated, and I never ever want to eliminate that as one of my hot buttons. But that is me.

I hope the moderators understand my anguish!

Pranam.

LOL, well I can certainly sympathize, though I have no clue what the Arabic 'F' word is - and am frankly afraid to ask. And I too can only hope for the understanding and patience of the Moderators and others.

Dear Aanandinii ji,

You have offered me some wonderful thoughts and insights to think about. As I said elsewhere, my conditioning while young to 'practice modesty' is at play here, I think. My POV is not really based on promoting male-domination, but actually to state the right fact, I view men, their roles and responsibilities both within the family as well as at the society at large to be different from that of a woman, and I see this modest clothing more of the role of a woman. I reinstate, this could be my cultural up-bringing. I see a lot of value in what you offer here, honestly, I will read them again and again. Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Viraja

Namaste Dear Viraja ji,

Honestly, you have brought up many good points for consideration too, and as the OP of this thread which has allowed many to pose their experiences and ideas, I wish to thank you. It is a good discussion and one that should be considered from time to time, I think.

Certainly our own upbringings and cultures inform our ideas and opinions - I'm certainly a good example of a hard-headed, occasionally outspoken western woman.

I was raised without those gender roles you speak of. Most have been blurred or done away with in this culture. There are a lot of reasons for that, but in the end it has not been entirely for the best in my own opinion. This is something we may be able to get back a little with time, and perhaps with the influence/help of friends from cultures that still hold to some traditional gender roles - another reason the good parts of such cultures should be preserved.

Thank you again for a good discussion, some thought-provoking ideas, and for your patience and understanding with me.

~Pranam

[ajreddy]

Namaste viraja
Blaming the victim is wrong. Period. Supporting such a mindset perpetuates further the stereotype. I think the problem is the patriarchal mindset imposed upon us that makes us think that women invite trouble. So tomorrow if men say they get turned on by violet will you stop wearing violet colour clothes? And day after tomorrow they would say all colors of VIBGYOR are a turn on?? what then? And then they would say hair turns them on????Should women shave their heads?
There was a time when women were dependent on men for food, shelter so it may be that they abide by the rules of the house. Now women earn and fend for themselves. As if it is not enough, that a woman should wear what her husband wants her to, what her child wants her to or what her parents want her to, her choice of clothes now has an obligation to meet the standards of modesty drawn by a total stranger in the form of a street lout??? With due respect to you, the culture of Sita immolating herself to prove a point, no matter what the justifications are, was wrong, because, it objectified women as dolls that dance to the whims of the society.


Also your presumption that western attire brings alive a womans big fat ego along with a host of other bad things is fractious at best. If clothes dictate spirituality then can you tell me the attire for liberation? Because why should i meditate hours together and read scriptures when i have the panacea for all ills- the modest dress:P '


P.S No matter how many flutes i have i won’t become a Krishna and no matter what, a widow with a white saree would not become a sarasvati.

[Viraja]

Also your presumption that western attire brings alive a womans big fat ego along with a host of other bad things is fractious at best. If clothes dictate spirituality then can you tell me the attire for liberation? Because why should i meditate hours together and read scriptures when i have the panacea for all ills- the modest dress:P '

Namaste ji,

If I have not been clear, I am sorry about that I wish to add these:

i) In my observation from having studied at a fashionable college, there is a tendency among young women of India to act snobbish, should they be reasonably westernized. They look down upon those who are traditional. They do not have any respect for traditional Indian values and dressing.

ii) In my experience in being a Western clothes wearer, I notice that body awareness is more with this -- I feel much less attractive and humbler when I wear a Sari when compared to jeans, shorts, etc. I repeat again, nowhere in this thread I said Western clothes look bad. Quite the opposite, I feel they look way much more attractive.

As I said elsewhere, it could be me and a limited few who may have similar issues, a lot more (as I said before) may not be having such issues. I have been doing some genuine sadhana watching all my thoughts for quite sometime now, and this observation is something from my personal experience.

iii) Also what I said in this thread (and what Yesudas could have meant) is only for the Indian woman and not for Westerners.

iv) Last but not least, it is not 'me' who is blaming the victim, but Yesudas! If you read the OP, you will know the reason I partially supported his view is for point ii stated here and not for anything else.

Hope this clarifies.

Regards,

Viraja

[devotee]

Namaste Viraja,

Let me share with you my personal experience on this issue. My daughter loves western clothes and doesn't like Indian traditional clothes much, even though she wears it on special occasions. She cannot be easily subdued and therefore, there were heated arguments on this issue between me and her. I was in support of traditional clothes and for covering body as per normal social acceptance and she argued why she must be forced for this rule when there is no rule for the male counterparts.

I cannot say who is right and who is wrong but drawing unnecessary attention on clothes and for covering or showing body parts is directly proportional to taking unnecessary risk in a male-dominant society and where sexual aggression towards women is quite common. So, what is the harm in agreeing to what society expects ? There are much more important things to do than to get stuck in what to wear and what not.

OM

[Aanandinii]

I cannot say who is right and who is wrong but drawing unnecessary attention on clothes and for covering or showing body parts is directly proportional to taking unnecessary risk in a male-dominant society and where sexual aggression towards women is quite common. So, what is the harm in agreeing to what society expects ? There are much more important things to do than to get stuck in what to wear and what not.

Namaste Devotee ji,

I think the point some of us are making here is that there is certainly harm. These are the harms:

• Hypocrisy and a double-standard which is not only unfair but promotes ignorance and perpetuates the problem.
• Silent agreement with the status quo allows it to continue unchecked, and is equivalent to agreeing that the sexual aggression/violence/discrimination against women is ok and should continue.
• It is also a refusal to address the actual issue in favor of "Blaming the Victim" - whether or not that is the intent, it is the actual result. This means that there is no Justice for those that are harmed and no change to society to stop it from happening, leading to stagnation and injustice.
• The actual issue being: males being taught that it's okay to treat women as objects, property and pieces of meat, regardless of what they might be wearing. It is not okay, or do you disagree? This is the issue that needs to be addressed, not clothes.

Society needs to grow and progress, not stay stagnant in the same old bad habits that harm and abuse half of the population. Women who dress traditionally in India report the same levels of "Eve Teasing" and abuse/groping etc as any that dress in jeans. Women dressing traditionally and being accompanied by a male household member or Husband have even reported this happening regularly. So again, the issue is not dress, it is male attitudes. Saying it is dress blames the woman instead of enforcing the idea that men shouldn't be acting so reprehensibly at all. I said above that I agree that women shouldn't place themselves in unnecessarily dangerous positions, and I stand by that. But having said that, I think we have already established in the thread above that one can still dress modestly in Western clothes and one is certainly also able to dress immodesty in traditional Indian attire as well. This is more proof that clothes are really not the issue here.

Society cannot remain male-dominated in the way it is anymore. The world economy that India is entering requires that both partners be working out in society in order for the family unit to remain prosperous. This is not possible for most the way things stand right now. My own neighbor was saying, here in the US a lot of young women make money for school by waitressing at restaurants. She says you could never see that in India, the girl would be abused terribly. I find that shocking and sad.

Lastly, all sincere respect to you Devotee ji, but you are male. Your reply does indeed imply in a right and wrong here, even if you didn't intend it. You benefit directly from the status quo and so see no harm in it, your opinion is immediately biased and clouded by that. I understand you worry for your daughter and I am not trying to say you have no place in the discussion, but you need to evaluate your bias and the logic you use very carefully because of the privilege you have due to the body you wear and the upbringing you have had in this birth. Speaking of the unprivileged from a place of privilege is very easy, especially when you haven't had to personally experience discrimination and sexual aggression yourself.

ii) In my experience in being a Western clothes wearer, I notice that body awareness is more with this -- I feel much less attractive and humbler when I wear a Sari when compared to jeans, shorts, etc. I repeat again, nowhere in this thread I said Western clothes look bad. Quite the opposite, I feel they look way much more attractive.

As I said elsewhere, it could be me and a limited few who may have similar issues, a lot more (as I said before) may not be having such issues. I have been doing some genuine sadhana watching all my thoughts for quite sometime now, and this observation is something from my personal experience.

iii) Also what I said in this thread (and what Yesudas could have meant) is only for the Indian woman and not for Westerners.

Viraja ji, with respect - and perhaps I am misreading you, my apologies if so -, you made this post about "Women in Western Clothes" and the OP didn't specify that you are addressing only Indian Women. Regardless, even if you had, you (and Yesudas) are making observations on Western ways of dress, which thus opens the thread to all people who wear that dress - most especially those in the culture that form of dress comes from. We do have a right to respond to assertions made about it, after all, just as you would about any assertions a westerner would make about traditional Indian garb.

How do you know that ajreddy is not Indian? "Reddy" is an Indian surname.

I think your point about a major part of how we feel in certain clothes being our own upbringing and the culture in which we are raised, is key. It's the same as how I was saying I feel exposed in Sari but not in Shalwar - I was raised wearing jeans and am uncomfortable in western-style dresses. I see Sari as dressy because it is a kind of dress, which we in the west wear when we want to "dress up", but also because to my western eyes and sensibilities, even the most simple and plain Sari is very elegant and beautifully draped. I just don't think I can ever see them as "every-day simple wear" - a cultural thing for me. A cultural thing for me as well is that I feel more ego when in Indian garb, either I am worried or I feel dressy, both ego. So again, your point here holds. My apologies if I didn't articulate that well before

I think that wherever you go in the world, in every society, there will be snobs and they will act like snobs. Those girls in your school, if there had been no western dress, would have worn high-fashion and expensive Indian dress and still been snobs. I don't think it is the clothes that make the person, it's the karmas and neural patterns inside the shell of these bodies that make the person. If someone is prone to being self-important in this birth, then they will be, just as some are prone to being bullies and some are more retiring and modest; all regardless of dress, money, hair, whatever.

It is possible to wear western dress and not be taken by ego, it is possible to dress modestly in western garb as well. What makes the difference is there are the same kind of people all over, and they will end up cutting the same forms no matter what they wear. And there are always those that will push the envelope of what society tend to like, because that's part of how culture grows, evolves and changes. Sometimes it's ugly to some of us and not so great, but there is always good with the bad.

Lastly, I would like to apologise for bringing up the fine line of "blaming the victim". While I think it's a valid discussion, I think it also opened up some strong feelings and some responses that were less than respectful. I feel you may have been lashed out at wrongly, Viraja ji, because I brought that to the discussion. I am very sorry for that. For the record I didn't see where you might have done that in this thread, to my reading.

~Pranam