Women and Western clothes

[Viraja]

Viraja ji, with respect - and perhaps I am misreading you, my apologies if so -, you made this post about "Women in Western Clothes" and the OP didn't specify that you are addressing only Indian Women. Regardless, even if you had, you (and Yesudas) are making observations on Western ways of dress, which thus opens the thread to all people who wear that dress - most especially those in the culture that form of dress comes from. We do have a right to respond to assertions made about it, after all, just as you would about any assertions a westerner would make about traditional Indian garb.

How do you know that ajreddy is not Indian? "Reddy" is an Indian surname.

I think your point about a major part of how we feel in certain clothes being our own upbringing and the culture in which we are raised, is key. It's the same as how I was saying I feel exposed in Sari but not in Shalwar - I was raised wearing jeans and am uncomfortable in western-style dresses. I see Sari as dressy because it is a kind of dress, which we in the west wear when we want to "dress up", but also because to my western eyes and sensibilities, even the most simple and plain Sari is very elegant and beautifully draped. I just don't think I can ever see them as "every-day simple wear" - a cultural thing for me. A cultural thing for me as well is that I feel more ego when in Indian garb, either I am worried or I feel dressy, both ego. So again, your point here holds. My apologies if I didn't articulate that well before

I think that wherever you go in the world, in every society, there will be snobs and they will act like snobs. Those girls in your school, if there had been no western dress, would have worn high-fashion and expensive Indian dress and still been snobs. I don't think it is the clothes that make the person, it's the karmas and neural patterns inside the shell of these bodies that make the person. If someone is prone to being self-important in this birth, then they will be, just as some are prone to being bullies and some are more retiring and modest; all regardless of dress, money, hair, whatever.

It is possible to wear western dress and not be taken by ego, it is possible to dress modestly in western garb as well. What makes the difference is there are the same kind of people all over, and they will end up cutting the same forms no matter what they wear. And there are always those that will push the envelope of what society tend to like, because that's part of how culture grows, evolves and changes. Sometimes it's ugly to some of us and not so great, but there is always good with the bad.

Lastly, I would like to apologise for bringing up the fine line of "blaming the victim". While I think it's a valid discussion, I think it also opened up some strong feelings and some responses that were less than respectful. I feel you may have been lashed out at wrongly, Viraja ji, because I brought that to the discussion. I am very sorry for that. For the record I didn't see where you might have done that in this thread, to my reading.

~Pranam

Dear Aanandinii ji,

Points for you - I just loved this posting of yours. And, more importantly, I simply loved the way you feel about wearing Saris because it seems we are on the same page eventually, about how we feel regarding reversing our traditional attire to wear something that is 'out of our own culture and up-bringing' . Now I am able to understand better what you mean by saris being exposing of the midriff and dressy. I feel likewise about jeans (or shorts) and a top, especially in the Indian setting. As I said elsewhere, Western clothes being form-fitting, tend to be make someone with a good body structure very attractive, more attractive than wearing the all-en-wrapping sari (that is for my Indian mindset) and this type of 'feel good' about one's looks and body might not be the best for the spirituality -- that is all I had to say regarding this whole issue. I now completely understand the way you feel kinda similar to what I say, regarding wearing Saris and I agree with it now, given your explanation . Say, for example, there are 'beauty pageants' and 'swimsuit competitions' - many protest it is not correct, I tend to agree with them, because to me, these increase one's pride about body which is not good for the soul. So anything to me that has the potential to increase the pride and 'feel-good' about the body is not good for the soul. 10 yrs ago I was fairly attractive and slim and I found that my pride after wearing say, tank-tops and shorts, etc over a period of time, increased and that is what motivated me to say this. As I said, it could be just me, but the point I am trying to make is, if someone is 'another me', it is good to stick to plain-looking clothes .

I just again repeat, how attractive, practical and well-made Western clothes are! They are simply novel and beautiful!

I agree 100% with everything you've written above and I thank you for the same!

Cheers,

Viraja

[devotee]

Namaste Anandini ji,

You are trying to convince people who don't need to be convinced. I understand what you say but that doesn't mean that everyone would understand this. And therefore, the risk stays as much as it was before you put forward your logic. I cannot take unnecessary risk and will not advise anyone to take risk. See, it is like a good Muslim saying, "Islam doesn't permit killing innocent people. It is not in Q'uran.". OK, agreed. But do ISIS people understand this ? Should I go and start teaching them what Islam says and means ? It is not important how logical and justified your argument is when you are dealing with people who cannot discriminate as you can.

How can you blame me for not understanding problem of girls/women ? I know it better than you because I am a caring father of a girl for whom I am worried. I am brother of a sister, I am husband of my wife and I care for them. Many women/girls have worked under me in my career. It is one of responsibilities that I provide a safe working environment to women working in my office and if necessary to take action as per law.

I know it better than you also because I understand the mentality of males better than you. Please don't brush it aside. Male sexuality is designed like that. They do get aroused if the female exposes parts of body which are traditionally or largely covered in the society unless the female is a known person or a family member (whether you agree or not, you have to live with that. If large people around you don't show any such thing, it is because they have learnt to keep their emotions under control due to their education and their upbringing, spiritual advancement etc.).Now, it doesn't justify their sexual aggression and that is why I said that there should be strict social laws against any crime related to sexual aggression. There can be no justification for sexual aggression at all. Please read my first post where I said that.

You will agree that human control on his thoughts and behaviour varies directly with his/her spiritual advancement. The more the person is at the lower ladder of spirituality, the less he has control over his thinking and behaviour. Unfortunately, the number of such people who are subdued by sense-subjects is very high. When people are drunk, the risk increases even more.

Even if I agree whole-heartedly with you and keep shouting at the top of my voice what is right and what is wrong, it won't change the society and the risk of a girl/woman. So, why take risk ?

OM

[Anirudh]

Namaste
I am not here to hurt anyone so kindly don't expect me to follow up this thread.
Male sexuality is designed like that. They do get aroused if
]the female exposes parts of
body

When Viraja ji asked quotes from literature instead of trying to understand what I have got to say realised that it s not worthy to argue on this subject any more. Because a simple Google would have told her what she was eager to know.

The same MEN who stare don't even think of turning their heads when they know severe punishment awaits them. I have seen this in different countries I travelled and also in my own work environment in India.

I am tempted to comment now because here MEN are represented as weak sex driven by maniacs. May be this is what men and women want to hear, why should I stop it?

I have nothing to comment on this thread any more.

[Aanandinii]

Namaste Devotee ji,

I am sorry if I made you feel attacked in any way, that was not my intent. My post was written in a tone of calm and friendly discussion, not in anger and reproach. I hope you would read this reply in the same calm tone and perhaps go back and re-read my last in that same spirit.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, such effort is often a waste of time and honestly I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with each other. I was simply pointing out that your reply could be viewed as dismissive and insensitive in the very way we had been talking about earlier, largely because you are speaking from a position of Privilege. An example for myself would be if I try and speak to the suffering and discrimination of illegal migrant workers here in the US as if I know what they go through. In this birth I am not personally an Hispanic migrant worker, I have not had to live that life of hardship and my own society benefits from the exploitation and discrimination against these workers. I can empathize with them and understand the issues and pain, but I do not directly experience what they do. Thus I am in a position of Privilege when it comes to this topic, and so on this topic I need to be sensitive to my position of Privilege and take care in how I reason and what words I use, to be sure I am not dismissive or hurtful in some unintended way.

How can you blame me for not understanding problem of girls/women ? I know it better than you because I am a caring father of a girl for whom I am worried. I am brother of a sister, I am husband of my wife and I care for them. Many women/girls have worked under me in my career. It is one of responsibilities that I provide a safe working environment to women working in my office and if necessary to take action as per law.

My sincere apologies if it seemed I was blaming you for anything, I am not and that was not my intention. I have no doubts that you are a kind person, a good brother and a loving father and husband, and it's a wonderful thing to know you try and enforce a safe workplace for women as well, you deserve recognition for that. I truly believe you empathize with the problem and would like to see it stop, I really do. I understood that from your last post as well, I don't think we ever disagreed here at all and I was not trying to accuse you. In fact I quite respect you a lot.

What I am saying though, is that empathizing with someone else's pain, even a family member's, is a different thing than directly experiencing that pain yourself. I am not saying you do not also feel pain when you see these things or when you worry for your family, and I am not saying that pain you feel is not significant or meaningful. What I am saying is that it is different in an essential way than if you were to be put in the same situation and experience the same treatment yourself. Hearing about a thing and seeing it, and feeling pain for the victims and those at risk, is not the same as directly experiencing a thing. Does this make sense?

I am also saying that because you don't experience it directly, it is easy to say things like:

So, what is the harm in agreeing to what society expects?

You may not realize it or intend it, because you have not directly experienced the humiliation, shame, rageand emotional turmoil such treatment causes, but when you say such things from your position of privilege, it is hurtful to the victims and those who are at risk of becoming victims. It is dismissive of the victim's pain and the harm done to them, even if that was never the intent behind the words, and in fact it can make suffering worse, especially if it comes from someone you love and respect. It implies you would not give support, if ever needed, and it trivializes the social justice issue, effectively brushing it aside.

Please note, I am not saying that was your intent when you said these things, I am saying that your words could be easily taken that way - particularly due to your gender - and so your words need to be chosen with care.
So when you say:

I know it better than you because...

I am hoping that what you meant to say is, "I know better than you think I do because...".
Because unless you have personally been sexually molested or abused, you cannot possibly know better than any woman, (or boy, it does happen to boys too...), who has been victimized. You can certainly empathize, and I believe you do, but you can't know it like we do.

I know it better than you also because I understand the mentality of males better than you. Please don't brush it aside.

Yes, you certainly understand male sexuality better than I do because it is your direct experience and not mine. I haven't dismissed it, if you read my posts I have said mostly the same things you have. But social laws do nothing when they are not enforced, and enforcement needs to start at the community level.

You will agree that human control on his thoughts and behaviour varies directly with his/her spiritual advancement. The more the person is at the lower ladder of spirituality, the less he has control over his thinking and behaviour. Unfortunately, the number of such people who are subdued by sense-subjects is very high. When people are drunk, the risk increases even more.

Yes, I definitely agree. There will always be those sense-deluded souls who harm and abuse others. It is the hope though that the higher souls might work to help protect those who need it and help educate and raise the consciousness of others when it is possible to do so.

Even if I agree whole-heartedly with you and keep shouting at the top of my voice what is right and what is wrong, it won't change the society and the risk of a girl/woman. So, why take risk?

Ah, but it does make a difference and the risk to women can change over time when people try. An ocean is nothing without the individual drops of water which fall as rain and snow, then slowly make their way to streams and rivers, to feed the sea. For example here in the US things are not perfect, we still have these problems, but it's not as common and very rare out in public. We have been working on this problem for about 50 to 60 years or so, we have really only started to see a big difference in the last 30 or so years, but the difference is still there and it would not have happened but for a few people starting to stand up and call for justice. Even today we see more people stand up every day.

It doesn't take standing up and shouting at the top of your voice or organizing social justice protests in your free time. It can start for adults in doing what you have already been, trying to ensure a safe workplace where possible or quietly standing up for someone on a bus. But where it really needs to start is in teaching children, and where children really learn behavior is from observing their parents, family and community. If people quietly ignore or accept, or even laugh and call it harmless, it's taken as an acceptance that in fact it's okay after all, regardless of what they are told at home.

You gave a quote at the beginning of your post equating this issue with Islamic radicalism... I'm not sure I agree with the analogy, for reasons I think are too loaded - this thread has been derailed far enough I think, and at my own fault. But let me reply with a few quotes as well, which might be a better metaphor for my own position:

“It is not enough to be compassionate – you must act.”- The Dalai Lama

"Until the great mass of the people shall be filled with the sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice can never be attained." - Helen Keller

“Washing one’s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.”- Paulo Freire

~Pranam

[Aanandinii]

Namaste Anirudh ji,

Namaste
I am tempted to comment now because here MEN are represented as weak sex driven by maniacs. May be this is what men and women want to hear, why should I stop it?

I have nothing to comment on this thread any more.

I am very sorry you have felt hurt by this. I think we have all agreed is it is not Men who are weak or maniacs, but Society allowing or excusing a certain kind of behavior. In the end we are all Human after all, everyone has their flaws. One of mine appears to be focusing on charged areas of a discussion that can't seem to go anywhere good... My apologies.

You probably have the right idea here.

~Pranam

[Believer]

Namaste,

With malice towards all..........

A social issue should be discussed as a social issue and nothing more. Why do people inject temple dress code, some clothes clashing with their spiritual quotient, and so much more and hijack the thread?

What did I learn from here,
Male: I am a nice person but when aroused, all bets are off.
Female: You must control yourself all the time even when I choose to run naked through the main street at high noon.
Male: You can't understand male sexuality because I am the one who owns a peni$.
Female: You can't understand sexual abuse unless you as a female have been through it.
Male: I get aroused with scantily clothed women.
Female: We have the right to wear whatever we want. Society should teach men to control themselves.

Just who is society. if not the men and women in this forum? if they talk past each other instead of to each other, why would more be expected from common people out there? Any talk about legislating some behaviors out of society is a mirage. Why not understand each other's point of view and try to reach a consensus? Poor Yesudas, the kind soul that he is, is being given lot of flak for stating the obvious. Hey Yesu. I feel for you man!

American attitude: Boys will be boys.
Indian Attitude: (As enunciated by Mulayam Singh Yadav) rape is nothing, it is just something that young men do when they are overexcited.

'Made up' minds never accomplished anything. It is the middle-of the-roaders, those who listen more than they talk, are the who facilitate convergence of divergent views. So, it is time to take a chill pill, retreat to your corners, mull over the other gender's opinion and see where do we go from here. We all know what you think, it is your understanding of the other gender's point of view that will resolve the issue.

And the scripture oriented moderator(s) - feel free to delete this post as a non-forum-conforming post.

Pranam,

PS, I repeat, either don't bring social issues to the forum, or discuss them as social issues. Don't bring 'your' spirituality into it. The people who want to be noticed for their clothes and the ones who would indulge in perversion or sexual abuse, don't give a hoot about 'your' spirituality. So, save it for some other discussion.

[devotee]

Namaste Anandinii ji,

A very well thought and well written response.

I will just say a few things before bowing out :

A majority of males don't accept any form of sexual aggression. In fact that is one of the reasons that in India we have very strict laws against sexual aggression. The laws against Sexual Harassment has been designed in such a manner that it has got tilted heavily in favour of women in India. Even a simple praise on looks can be considered by a woman on work as sexual harassment and it has been left to her judgment. This has increased the chances of abusing this law and I have seen that being misused a few times myself.

I spite of such intent of the society and law enforcing machinery, the ground reality is that eve-teasing and sexual harassment keep taking place. I will not place "rape" in that category as "rape", imo, should be categorised separately and it should be treated in a different manner (in a harsh manner as we deal with murderers). And my experience is that women showing more skin are more prone to eve-teasing and sexual harassment.

OM

[Ekam]

Namaste.

I am an adult male, and I assure you:

Even if a man is surrounded by totally naked women dancing around him in his room, he will NOT have sex with them unless he consciously decides to do it, and if he doesn't want it because he knows it's wrong, he can just not do it and resolve his urges alone.

Anyone who says the opposite it's just trying to justify a crime. Libido is not an uncontrollable urge, at least not in healthy men.

To have sex with someone when you are excited it's an option, just like hitting someone in the face when you are angry it's an option too, neither are uncontrollable urges, sorry.

Likewise, as there are people who are more susceptible of killing someone who provokes anger, some men also are more susceptible of raping someone who provokes lust. Neither can be justified by the atittude of the victim, because anger control and lust control are moral traits that everybody has to develop if one wants to live in society.

Pranams.

[Viraja]

Namaste friends,

Perhaps it is time to have this thread closed?

We have seen both the sides - those who think women should dress modestly and those who think men should behave modestly. As the flow of conversation indicates, we are all indecisive at this point which view is correct. They both ring true to some and not to some others.

I just thought of posting this thread not to come to a situation where we will keep challenging each others without being in a position to arrive at any conclusion. I read Shri. Yesudas's message, thought of myself and my own 'thought watching' spiritual observations and thought of sharing it and also get some opinions on others perceptions on the issue. Now that we clearly have these 2 distinct versions of perceptions, my curiosity to discuss this matter has ended .

So how about we reach one final conclusion? May I propose that? How about saying, in keeping in line with India's culture and heritage and nature of responses from prevalent masses in india, and given India's global visibility these days and lastly, given the role of women of modern times in India, Indian woman can and need to have the freedom to choose to wear Western clothes as she prefers, but can maintain a certain decency level and standard.

Will this ending satisfy all? I'm curious .

Thanks to all for participating,

Viraja

[Believer]

Namaste,

Every flower must be allowed to bloom in its own way. Everyone should be allowed to exercise full freedom within the confines of the social norms. No one is denying that.

But let me for a moment show a mirror to the Indian nationalists. Everyone bubbles at India's glorious past. People here in the forum, by an overwhelming majority, wish for Sanskrit to become popular in India. Everyone talks about this being the century of Asia, and more specifically, century of India. And above all, every other post talks about so many facets of our culture having been influenced by muslim and Xitian rulers. So far so good.

Here is a meek Xitian, who opened his mouth to exhort you to take pride in your native dress; someone who is trying to reverse the tide, and give you some sense of cultural pride. And all that people have to do is to attack him? Those bad, bad muslims and Xitians tried to kill your native culture, and a Xitian tries to revive it and instead of thanking him, everyone is attacking him in the name of freedom to 'wear what we want'? If that is not the height of hypocrisy and duplicity, then what is? For a minute forget the Western point of view and what Westerners in the forum are saying, do the native Indians really understand what they are doing by attacking someone for promoting their local culture. On one hand muslims and Xitians are blamed in every thread for every ill in the Indian society. In the next breath, a man, a diminutive Xitian man, who speaks up for Indian culture is attacked? Has your collective pride, your collective thinking taken a leave?

To make a concession to the 'freedom lovers', do what you want. But why are the comments of this little Keralite who controls no one, harms no one, is not a leader on men, and is just another gentle soul, being taken so seriously and is being berated for opening his mouth?

Recently, when the Indian satellite reached the planet Mars, every Indian felt some pride. They showed shots of the control room and all the ladies is saris were so exuberant. In the Western media, they talked less about India's scientific achievement and more about the women in Saris in the space launch control room. And you want to put down poor Yesu, who would like to give you your pride back, in the name of freedom? If that is the prevailing attitude, please spare me in your future posts about what muslims and Xitians did to your culture. When you yourself want to annihilate it in the present, why look for scapegoats from the past?

Pranam.