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Thread: Astral Roaming

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    Astral Roaming

    Namaste,

    This is a convoluted question with perhaps no answer; but I wonder what our philosophy says about this. After your soul is ''liberated'' and merged with the eternal form of the Lord are you bound to that state? You are in complete bliss, 100% static brahman, the highest of the high, a state where you require no more. I'm assuming you can detach from that state because we were once in that state and people have differing views whether we detached by choice.

    Can you take birth in a physical body for the purpose of astral roaming? Or travel in your eternal form while wearing a physical body as clothing? Or is a body even required? For e.g. can you visit heavenly planes like Kailasha or other heavenly planes or even neutral planes like Earth.

    Secondly, if this is possible, if you take a new body as clothing, what type of karmic patterns do you inherit since you just came from a ''liberated form''. A clean slate perhaps? Can you roam as a detached enlightened soul, or must you re-enter the misery of the cycle known as life and death?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by IcyCosmic; 10 October 2014 at 12:26 PM.

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    Re: Astral Roaming

    Namaste IcyCosmic,

    1. There are many answers to the first question, even if you confine yourself to Vedānta, which has twelve traditional branches (and for some a couple of newer branches). Here are a few of the answers I've seen (in no particular order):

    A. In the Advaita (Nondualism) traditions that arose from the teaching of Śrī Ādi Śaṅkarācārya, one may become a jīvanmukta, one liberated while alive, free from the sense of "I" and attachment to the body, free from the cycle of reincarnation and the creation of new karma. At death this realized being sheds the body, which it no longer desires. The individual shell is gone. There is only Brahman without attributes. The consensus seems to be that there is no return. You're like a drop of water swallowed by the ocean.

    B. In Śrī Rāmakṛṣṇa's system (sometimes called neo-Vedānta) one can be liberated yet remain on the "edge" between Infinity and multiplicity, the Absolute and the relative, retaining a very subtle, vast, purified, "I" of knowledge. This state he calls bhāvamukha. "edge of becoming," "threshold of becoming," or "gateway to becoming." He refers to individuals in this state as vijñānīs and says that they go further than the Advaitin jñānī ("knower"), because after turning away from and negating the world of multiplicity to attain the One, they turn back to the world and see Brahman the One as the diversity of the world. They see God as both formless and with form, rejecting neither. He also taught that those attaining liberation on the path of devotion retain a subtle, purified servant's "I." Those liberated sages and devotees who retain a "trace of individuality," regardless of their path, reappear in the world to help others. Those who obliterate their individuality in the Absolute, leaving no trace, he said, are "comparatively selfish, because they care only for the liberation of their own souls."

    C. In Viśiṣṭādvaita (Qualified Nondualism or Nondualism of the Qualified Whole) both the One and the many are real. The Whole is real but it is not without real parts that are inseparable from Him, just like the sun and the sunlight. Our true identities are as souls dependent upon God and existing to serve God. Liberation can occur only after death. Liberated beings commune with God, experiencing a sort of oneness with Him, and possess divine, unlimited awareness, total knowledge, and perfect bliss in purified spiritual bodies, but retain their individuality. I imagine that it is possible for them to reappear in the world in the service of God and out of compassion for the bound, just as eternally liberated Ādiśeṣa, a servant of Śrīman-Nārāyaṇa, incarnated as Śrī Rāmānujācārya, or travel to other realms as purified beings in God's service. Śrī Rāmānujācārya said that incarnations have purified bodies of śuddha-sattva, the stuff of consciousness, that only appear to be ordinary bodies. These are also the sorts of bodies attained by the liberated ones in Śrīman-Nārāyaṇa's realm, but without the disguise of ordinary appearance.

    D. In the Dvaitādvaita (Duality in Non-duality) or Svābhāvika Bhedābhada (Natural or Essential Difference in Non-difference) of Śrī Nimbārkācārya the situation is similar to that in Viśiṣṭādvaita. For Śrī Nimbārkācārya difference and non-difference are equally real in God. We are dependent parts of God. Liberation, which can only happen after death, means "uninterrupted experience of His nature and attributes, and attaining a fraction of His qualities." The liberated one thus retains a level of individuality while realizing that he is a "sharer of the nature of the Lord." My guess is that some liberated beings may incarnate to serve God by helping others, just as Śrī Nimbārkācārya did.

    2. The second question is easier. There seems to be universal agreement with regard to the liberated and karma. Liberated beings do not create new karma by definition and are inwardly free from all suffering, whether in a spiritual form or "incarnate."

    praṇām
    Last edited by anucarh; 11 October 2014 at 12:42 AM. Reason: changed "after" to "at"
    śrīmate nārāyaṇāya namaḥ

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    Re: Astral Roaming

    Namaste,

    One more thing: I forgot to mention, as you're probably aware, that if you're an ādhikārika, a "commissioned one" or "appointed one," appointed by God to fulfill a mission or missions, you're a special exception to the rule in Advaita, like Nārada Muni, you exist as a distinct liberated being as long as your mission or missions remain unfulfilled. In at least one case, there even seems to be the appearance of rebirth, although I've read that this isn't supposed to happen. [EDIT: yajvan ji has a great discussion about this realized being, Apāntaratamas, that I just rediscovered.] Obviously, this is not the norm and it doesn't seem to be what you're talking about.

    Incidentally, for Śrī Rāmakṛṣṇa the ādhikārikas are a type of vijñānī, a knower of both the Absolute and the relative, with awareness at the "edge" between them. Śrī Rāmakṛṣṇa said that he himself is an ādhikārika puruṣa who has to "reincarnate himself" in age after age to "carry out that mission."

    praṇām
    Last edited by anucarh; 12 October 2014 at 03:40 AM. Reason: added the word "liberated" & more info
    śrīmate nārāyaṇāya namaḥ

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    Re: Astral Roaming

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    If one's real nature is whole, full and a quality of this nature is satatoditam¹ where can one roam to and not find one's Self ?

    iti śivaṁ

    words
    • satatoditam = satata + udita
      • atata = perpetual , continual , uninterrupted
      • udita = being high above, elevated
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #5

    Re: Astral Roaming

    Quote Originally Posted by anucarh View Post
    Namaste,

    One more thing: I forgot to mention, as you're probably aware, that if you're an ādhikārika, a "commissioned one" or "appointed one," appointed by God to fulfill a mission or missions, you're a special exception to the rule in Advaita, like Nārada Muni, you exist as a distinct liberated being as long as your mission or missions remain unfulfilled. In at least one case, there even seems to be the appearance of rebirth, although I've read that this isn't supposed to happen.
    Namaste

    I doubt that DevaRshI (NArad) wants the mission to end
    Also, if not the appointed adhikAris, the Lord VishNu Himself takes avatAr yuga after yuga, and the adhikAris are part of His entourage during His lIlA on earth.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Astral Roaming

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste

    I doubt that DevaRshI (NArad) wants the mission to end
    Also, if not the appointed adhikAris, the Lord VishNu Himself takes avatAr yuga after yuga, and the adhikAris are part of His entourage during His lIlA on earth.
    Namaste smaranam ji,

    These are good points. Thank you.

    praṇām
    śrīmate nārāyaṇāya namaḥ

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    Re: Astral Roaming

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    I'd like to add some additional views on this subject for one's consideration.

    By saying ‘liberated, ‘merged , where you require no more, static brahman’, suggests a particular school of thought. Anucarh did a fine job of describing some of these schools from the vedāntic point of view.
    These schools are noble and are worthy of one’s study and consideration. I say this because my purpose is not to discount their knowledge or point of view. So the following is offered to compare and contrast other views.

    Static brahman
    this is a common theme within the vedāntic and the śāṁkhya schools;
    in the śāṁkhya school ‘static brahman’ would be equal to puruṣa. Yet within trika or kaśmir śaivism which is non-dual (advitīya) but not the vedāntic school of thought, it is viewed differently.

    Within this school brahman ( called śiva or paramaśiva) is not static , but has a slight movement, a throb. This throb is called spanda. Some say it is śakti, others say it is the natural Self-referral condition of Being, of śiva. That it (śiva or paramaśiva) is aware of itself, and it is this Self awareness that is this spanda. From this spanda all of creation arises within His Being, not outside or other then Him.

    Merging & You
    This merging suggest there are two. As Anucarh pointed out pending the school this may or may not be seen as the reality of the situation. In general there’s the 3 views:
    • advaita - no separateness or not two - unity
    • dvaita - separateness or 2 - diversity
    • viśsiṣṭādvaita - separate yet - unity in diversity
    So, merging can only occur in the last two views shown ( if at all); as we have learned, some schools do not think this is the reality of the truth.

    Within kaśmir śaivism merging is more re-recognition of one’s true Self. No merging needed. Yet the point is, no matter if one is considering kaśmir śaivism or the advaita vedāntic notion, ‘you’ is no longer a term that is valid – 'you' is associated with individuality with aṇu ( smallness, limited) .

    Here’s my point. The questions based upon:
    • ‘a state where you require no more’
    • ‘Can you take birth’
    • ‘can you visit heavenly planes’
    • ‘travel in your eternal form while wearing a physical body’
    The ‘you’ that is being mentioned is referring back to a personal condition of being human. When one has ‘merged’ or re-recognized one’s real nature there is no individual ‘you’ to refer back to. Further more, once this infinite ( which is not the best word to use here) level
    is once again re-membered, then there is no place for ‘you’ to visit , you are everywhere already. You are also in the next birth for it is the SELF that is within and without every and anything. You cannot escape from being in the satatoditam¹ condition.


    iti śivaṁ
    • satatoditam = satata + udita
      • atata = perpetual , continual , uninterrupted
      • udita = being high above, elevated
    Last edited by yajvan; 13 October 2014 at 09:02 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #8
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    Re: Astral Roaming

    Thankyou to all for their very poignant and potent answers.

    I am surprised at the depth available! I will study all that has been propounded here.

    Anucarh : thankyou for taking the time to write out all that information.
    Yajvan : Thankyou for fleshing out the propounded points.

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