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Thread: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

  1. #11
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    #Who attain MokshA#

    The question seems not important as there, generally, is belief that all paths ( different ideas of reality) leads to one goal. But this isn't a fact at all, as I think and most probably scripture's view as well.

    Vedanta clearly criticize those who see/assume any duality in Brahman. There's fear they say. Such duality is nowhere existed and who believe in it also become Asat.

    Not only in vedAntA but also in all purAnas any duality is refuted and claims the one existence of Brahman alone. It's Vishnu, it's Shiva or it's brahma. One existence, one Brahman alone exists and here it's playing by his sport by appearing as Ishwara, prakruti and JivA. Those who not only see this but also experience, get liberated from the veil of mAyA and attain the self as if they've become Brahman again. This is the state wherein there's total dissolution of I, in other word Jiva. ParamAtmA which is essentially one with Soul, make that Jiva merge in its existence, who's at all times thinking about it. In VedAntA, this is explained by the behavior of mind. Whatever mind thinks constantly become that thing itself. So there's no doubt that whoever thinks about Brahman becomes that brahman.

    The distinction among supreme gods, who are identified with brahman, is not at all good, though there are many views on this. Obviously, those who see duality among gods have not attained perfect knowledge because knowledge itself is absolutely opposite to duality as it's mentioned in vedanta. Shri Krishna himself says in BhagavatA, "Only those attain peace who don't consider any duality between shiva and me. They see one self everywhere".

    Another aspect of the question 'who attain moksha' is knowledge. Upanishads say "DnyanAt eva mokshA"- "Knowledge alone is responsible for mokshA".. And what is that knowledge "The unity of AtmA and Brahma".. Bhagavan shankarA says in Viveka chudAmuni " MokshA is attained only by identification of self with Brahman " No any other means. Because Upanishads firmly states ignorance can be removed by knowledge only. Bhagavan Vishnu also say in GitA " I, who's situated as the self, remove their ignorance by lamp of knowledge " "There's nothing more purifier than this knowledge"

    Hari Naryana
    Last edited by hinduism♥krishna; 08 November 2014 at 06:22 AM.
    Hari On!

  2. #12
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Namaste,

    What HLK has stated is also a valid view and yet there is something more which binds together all the paths with the same goal. How ?

    Let’s first answer this question : Why do we make any effort, whether it is purely worldly or purely spiritual (if use of such terms are allowed) ? The answer is “to be happy”. This is our common goal. We all are seeking happiness. A poor man wants to be rich because he is seeking happiness because he feels that if he becomes rich he will be happy. A rich man wants good health, a loving wife and obedient children with good samskaars as he is seeking happiness in these things because he feels that if it happens what he wants then he would be happy. A woman of average looks wants to be beautiful as she seeks happiness in beauty which she feels would get her a rich and loving husband. A young man seeks beautiful wife as he is seeking happiness in a beautiful wife.

    But the happiness got by all such worldly fulfilment is fleeting and temporary. A young man thinks that once he gets a good paying job he would be happy. But when he gets such a job he seeks a good looking, good natured wife. When he gets even a good wife, he seeks good and healthy children. Then he thinks that he should have his own beautiful grand home and then he would be happy. Etc. etc. The reality is that he becomes more and more restless and craves even more once his earlier desires are fulfilled.

    Why are we seeking happiness even in conditions when we should be fully happy as perceived from another reference point ? Because it is true that we all are seeking happiness ... but we are not seeking worldly happiness. We are seeking eternal bliss. Unless we get that we won’t ever be happy. We are seeking eternal bliss because it is our true nature and we have somehow forgotten our true nature.

    So, we all are moving towards our common goal ... eternal happiness/bliss. Those who are simply indulging in worldly cravings, enjoyments and sufferings they also are moving towards the same goal but they are taking a very-very long route and Nature is going to be their teacher who will teach then hard lessons through the laws of Karmas that happiness which they seek is not there in worldly possessions. These teachings/lessons will be engraved in their sub-conscious minds births after births and finally they would go towards spirituality being disenchanted with the worldly possessions.

    Now, what is the common component in all spiritual practices which takes us towards our eternal quest ? The state where we will get what we seek is described by Lord Krishna as “Sthitprajna”, What is this state ? Lord Krishna teaches us in Chapter – 2 of Bhagwad Gita (verses 55-59) :

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhagwad Gita
    When one completely casts away, O partha, all the desires of the mind, satisfied in the self alone by the self, then he or she is said to be one of steady wisdom.

    One whose mind is not shaken by adversity, who does not hanker after happiness, who has become free from attachment, fear and anger, is indeed the muni or sage of steady wisdom – Sthitahprajna

    One who is everywhere unattached not pleased at receiving good, nor vexed at evil, his or her wisdom is steady

    When also, like the tortoise drawing its limbs, one can completely withdraw the senses from their sense objects, his or her wisdom becomes steady

    Sense objects fall away from the abstinent person, leaving the longing behind. But even that longing ceases when one realizes the supreme
    Let’s analyse these verses and summarise what is needed to attain this state :

    a) All desires of mind must be cast away
    b) One should be fully content and happy with the Self alone by Self
    c) Not disturbed by worldly adversity
    d) Not seeking worldly happiness
    e) Free from all attachments
    f) Free from anger (for not getting what we desire or for losing what we love)
    g) Free from fear of any worldly pains and sufferings
    h) Equanimity in receiving both good and evil
    i) All senses drawn away from sense-objects
    j) Longing for sense-objects should be attained not by merely suppressing the desires artificially but by attaining one-ness with the Self.
    k) Attaining full tranquillity of mind

    So, this is the state which is our eternal blissful state and that is what we all are seeking. In what way different paths help us in attaining this state directly or indirectly ? I will discuss this in my next post.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #13
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee
    What HLK has stated is also a valid view and yet there is something more which binds together all the paths with the same goal. How ?
    Namaste Devotee,

    I am also agreed with your view. But how'll you reconcile it with the view- Moksha is attained only by identifying the self with Brahman ?

    What's the liberation of those who don't think self as one with that Brahman?

    Thank You..
    Hari On!

  4. #14
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Namaste,

    The seekers of Truth can be broadly categorised as Bhakti Yogis, Karma-Yogis and JnAn Yogis. The common mistaken idea is that Bhakti-Yogis and JnAn Yogis have different goals and there is hardly anything common between them. The mistake arises due to getting too much bogged down with rituals/procedures and forgetting the goal which Lord Krishna keeps reminding in Bhagwad Gita again and again.

    Let’s take an example of devotees who are going on a pilgrim to take bath in the river Ganga on some auspicious day. They believe that taking bath in the river will cleanse them of their sins and accrue spiritual merits. Now taking bath in river Ganga ... can it take us to state of Sthitaprajna that Lord Krishna talks about in Chapter 2 which is the state free from all pains and sufferings and is the state of eternal bliss ? Bhagwad Gita doesn’t promise anything on this account. However, it still helps. How ? The procedure involved is the clue to how it helps going towards the state. It may be a baby step. It may be a very small step but it goes towards that goal slowly. The devotees’ thoughts become devotional during the whole process --- right from starting for the river to taking bath and then performing pooja in a nearby temple etc. There is inclination to stay away from worldly thoughts for physical comforts, enjoying carnal desires etc. So, this purity of thoughts which is maintained throughout the process is very important and that takes them towards focussing their thoughts on the grace of God.

    Similarly, when you chant the name of God, perform pooja by offering flowers, do havans, pray etc. you take away your thoughts from mundane desires and focus them on one thought i.e. thoughts of God. This change in direction of thoughts is very important because it would finally take us towards our goal. Thoughts create impressions in our minds and become the seeds for future happening of events in our this or next life. Chapter-12 is considered teachings on Bhakti-Yoga by Lord Krishna. In this chapter, Lord Krishna praises Bhakti-Yoga over JnAna Yoga due the fact that Bhakti Yoga is easier than JnAna Yoga to tread. However, what qualities He likes His Bhaktas to develop ? Let’s see :

    But those who worship me, renouncing all actions in Me, regarding Me as the Supreme Goal, meditating on Me with single minded devotion... For them whose thought is so set on Me, O Partha (another name for Arjuna), I will become very soon, the One to deliver them from this cycle of birth and death.” (Bhagwad Gita 12.6 & 12.7)

    ==> What are the requirements in the above verses ?
    a) Renounce all actions in Lord Krishna or the Self. (Let’s remember that He is the Self residing in the heart of all beings. In Chapter-6, He uses Self in one verse and Himself in another verse for practising meditation on the Self)

    What does the above mean ? “Renounce all actions” is not enough and sufficient ... it must be renounced in the Self. This means that one should abide within Self alone and should not deviate from that state of abiding in the Self.
    b) “The Lord or the Self is the Supreme goal” .... this thought has to be developed. Therefore, there is no desire which should be kept preserved ... all goals should be forgotten and the only the Supreme goal must be kept in thought.
    c) “Devotion to Lord/Self must be single minded” .... This can be achieved through meditation or developing devotional thoughts and discarding all other thoughts for developing such a mind focussed on the Lord/Self.

    Is it different from what the JnAn Yogis try to attain ? There is not much difference, imho. JnAn Yogis meditate on Self as the Supreme. They are not bogged down with rituals but straightway try to attain single-mindedness on the Supreme Goal i.e. the Self. So, one path goes straight to the goal and the other treads a slightly round-about way to the same goal.

    Let’s see some other verses from this chapter in which the Lord wants His devotees to develop :

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhagwad Gita
    He who hates no being, who is friendly and compassionate to all, who is free from the feeling of I and mine, even-minded in pain and pleasure and forbearing...

    Ever content, steady in meditation, self controlled and possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect fixed on me, such a devotee is dear to me.

    He by whom the world is not afflicted and whom the world cannot afflict, he who is free from joy, anger, fear and anxiety - he is dear to me.

    He who has no desires, who is pure and prompt, unconcerned, untroubled, and who is selfless in all his undertakings, he who is thus devoted to Me, is dear to Me.

    He who neither rejoices nor hates nor grieves nor desires, renouncing good and evil (treating both as the same), full of devotion, he is dear to Me.

    He who is the same to foe and friend and also in honor and dishonor, who is the same in cold and heat, in pleasure and pain, who is free from attachment...

    To whom blame and praise are equal, who is silent, content with anything, free of selfish attachment, steady-minded and full of devotion-such a one is dear to Me.

    Those, who follow this immortal dharma described above with devotion and faith, looking upon Me as the Supreme Goal, they are exceedingly dear to Me.

    (BG 12.13-20)
    What do these verses say ? For being dear to the Lord we must develop the following qualities :

    a) No hatred to any being but being friendly and compassionate
    b) Free from “I” and “Mine” and even-mindedness in both pleasures and pains.
    c) Neither affected by the world nor affect the world anyway adversely by his actions and thoughts.
    d) Free from joy, anger and anxiety.
    e) No desires, purity (in thoughts and actions), detached from worldly affairs
    f) Should not get disturbed by the worldly happenings
    g) Renounce both evil and good, full of devotion, even-mindedness in honour and dishonour, cold and heat
    h) Silent, content, steady-mindedness

    In fact, the JnAna Yogis too try to develop these qualities by Yama, Niyama, meditation, contemplating upon VedAntic teachings etc.

    Therefore, the Bhakti-Yogi who doesn’t develop the above desired qualities as stated by God above, is actually not going in the right direction and this means that he is taking a longer route to the goal.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #15
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Namaste,

    What do we infer with this discussion ? My views :

    Our concept of spirituality need to be refined and re-defined. Spirituality must take us towards the spirit or the essence. The KAla (time) is working towards taking us all towards the spirit with the laws of Karma in action. However, our thought-patterns/mind-waves and past impressions of such mind-waves stored in our sub-consciousness decide our velocity and extent of our movement (?) towards our goal. Therefore, any spiritual practice should aim at this, imho :

    a) Make us calm and at peace and fully contented. For being calm, at peace and fully contented we don't need anything external ... it is our own self which alone is sufficient for our blissful happiness. No external agent should be able to disturb our peace. It doesn't mean that we won't strive to get worldly things required for our better living but our being happy should not be affected by our desire to achieve, our action to achieve or the outcome of the action.

    b) There should be no fear. The thinking that we are immortal and the body which we carry is perishable and can never be saved and therefore, we should not fear its destruction. This thinking should slowly become firmly etched in our sub-consciousness. Whatever we have is temporary and there should be no fear of losing anything. It is not that we won't take action to safeguard our things but there should be no fear of losing or any repentance on losing actually.

    c) "It is all Brahman/God" and any difference seen is due to delusion caused by MAyA. So, hate no one and love all. Love God, love every being and everything.

    In my humble opinion, it is all about our thought-process and everything is there in mind. If we can take care of our mind-waves, our this world and the world beyond will be automatically taken care of.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #16
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    What is God, Self and Mind ? ... and what is "I" ?

    We are all searching for God. We are aiming towards one-ness with Self. But we have neither seen God not the Self. We don't know what and where they are. We keep talking about ourselves but we have not been able to pin-pointedly locate the Self within us. This is the main reason behind all our confusion, all fights over supremacy of paths/beliefs and various forms of God. Some say that God is Lord Shiva, some say that it is Vishnu and yet some some say that it is Mother Durga, Sun God etc. In other religions there have been bitter fights over the issue of God and no bloodshed in the history has been more than what happened in the name of showing supremacy of one God-form over the others.

    So, who is God and where does He reside ? Our scriptures teach us that God is infinite and is present in every pore of the universe. There is nothing in this universe which is not pervaded through and through by God. What a contradiction that God who is omnipresent is being sought by people in the temples/mosques/churches, in heaven and wherever we can search Him.

    What is the need to search Him anywhere when He is present everywhere ? In fact, there is no need. We, in our delusion, keep searching Him everywhere and waste our time. When He is everywhere then it implies that He is within us. Scriptures tell us that He is there in the heart of all beings. So, if the heart is replaced by an artificial heart then what would happen to God within that heart ? "Heart" in the above statement is actually not the physical organ in the body. Here, "Heart" means "the core" .... the thing which makes "i" as "i". This is "I" thought covered in intellect and observing mind and past impressions or the individualised Consciousness, if we talk in Advaitic terms. This means that God resides within the core of Individualised Consciousness. In fact, Individualised Consciousness or the "self" is none but God in the core or essence but due to conditioning of individualised consciousness due to MAyA and past impressions, it assumes itself as a distinct individual.

    It is our Mind where "I" thought arises, impressions are stored, intellect shines and new impressions are gathered. If the mind-waves of past impressions and mind-waves of current tendencies to look outward for desires, fear or whatever emotions are stilled, the "I" thought, the intellect and observing mind all merge back into Self and the Self shines. The stilled Mind "turns" into Brahman. So, Mind and Brahman are the same in essence. That is why Patanjali says, "Yogaschittvritti nirodhah" ====> The state where all mind-waves are stopped in Yoga ("getting united" with Brahman/God). That is why seekers meditate to still the mind-waves. That is why Buddhists say, "Mind itself is Buddha".

    So, which is the best place to look for God ? It is our own mind. Mind in completely peaceful state where there is no agitation of past impressions and tendencies of present mind-waves is God and that should be aimed at in our spiritual practices. What is the best way to pray ? We should calm down our own mind, look within the calmness and then pray to God who is present in the calmness of mind.

    ************************
    Quote Originally Posted by hinduism♥krishna View Post
    But how'll you reconcile it with the view- Moksha is attained only by identifying the self with Brahman ?

    What's the liberation of those who don't think self as one with that Brahman?
    Everyone is going towards liberation. Some are taking direct path and some are taking a little longer one. Everyone is none but Brahman. It is just a matter of time that he realises Himself in the calmness of his mind.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #17
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Can Karma be overcome by worshipping, going to pilgrims etc. ?

    Being a Science student, I always believed in unbiased repeatability of an experiment for giving the same result every time if the theory of that experiment was right. What do I want to say ? If law of gravitation is right, then all experiments done based on this law will give the same result again and again irrespective of the fact who does the experiment. It cannot happen that if I do that experiment and I get one result but if someone else does the same thing, that fellow gets some different result (if the experiment has been done in the same environment and with similar parameters in the same way).

    However, this fails when we apply to get this argument for having the grace of God by performing Pooja, going to pilgrims or performing some tapas etc. Some do the same thing and get what they want while the other one does the same thing and doesn't get what he wants ! What can be the reason for this ?

    a) God doesn't exist and therefore there is no one sitting in heaven to answer our questions.
    ==> This was exactly what I deduced when I was young and started disbelieving in the existence of God !

    b) God cannot change the course of Karma and there is no point going to him for changing our fate.
    ===> If that is true, then what God is made for and what use is He for us ?

    c) God is partial and doesn't listen to everyone. He favours some and doesn't care for others.

    ====> God by definition cannot be partial otherwise, He can be anything but God.

    Can someone share his views on this issue before I share my views ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  8. #18

    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Pranams Devotee Ji,

    Very good questions and imo the answers are arrived at by notice of awareness within the process of any sadhana.

    I think most sadhaka's, all traditions taken into account, are usually chasing after the religious experience, mostly the practice is further fueled each time we get the some type of experience. That experience in the Hindu model is known as yoga, or the feeling of connection, from yoga we then have many departments of practice, the main one being religion and the religious principles. So in many ways we can call our practice scientific, we have a hypothesis (shastra) then we have experiment (sadhana ) and finally the result, which can only be fully understood by the introspective awareness.

    Within this whole process we have rules and regulations, which are the back bone of religion, especially in the early stages, but to much clinging the rules and regulations will also give some problems. Within Buddhism the process of path and realization is divided into three sections, Sila ( morality) Samadhi ( mental absorptions ) and wisdom ( insight through awareness) There are masses of subdivisions within all of the categories.

    From this we then get to understand that not only is there a practice of religion but also spiritual psychology, so the process of psychological change is very important to be taken into account.

    I am just using the noble eightfold path here as my reference, which I consider non denominational and can be applied and synthesized with any type of faith.

    So we then have a further expounding in slightly more details to build up the frame work of practice.

    The eightfold noble path is a such

    Division of the Eightfold Path factors and Acquired factors of Wisdom
    1. Right view
    2. Right intention
    3. Right speech
    4. Right action
    5. Right livelihood
    6. Right effort
    7. Right mindfulness
    8. Right concentration

    This within Buddhism is known as right alignment of the principles and practice of Dharma.

    So just like in any experiment if the conditions of the experiment is not correct then the result will be different.

    Then we have the understanding of the samskaras and the klesha or mental properties and mental defilement's. Due to the laws of karma these can vary from one person to another, but the basic conditions are pretty much universal and the process and practice of dealing with the issues of conditioning will be the same, although the sadhana if practiced in the right way will vary according from one individual to another. This may differ from the empirical study as each person is a a complete subjective model in and of themselves, so the process of religion is personal and the application is to be aware of the subjective experience within the process, this will lead to a type of transcendent objective reality, where finally in the success of the scientific path of sadhana we share the same awareness.

    Hope this helps

    Ys

    Md

  9. #19
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    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Namaste Markandeya,

    You have written it well but that doesn't touch upon the topic of the question !

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  10. #20

    Re: The Rainbow - Thoughts of the day !

    Pranams Devotee Ji,

    Then please point out why, I see it as the right answer.

    Ys

    Md

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