Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

  1. #1
    Join Date
    October 2014
    Location
    CA, USA
    Age
    75
    Posts
    118
    Rep Power
    462

    Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    A few days ago, I read a discussion regarding, as it was put, Hinduism's missed opportunity. One participant was told that “conversion” was not necessary. That if one thinks s/he is a Hindu then they are. This left her feeling confused and ignored. The second participant referring to something she had read by Rajiv Malhotra said some westerners are taking advantage of Indians or seeing Hinduism*as “available”, the latest spiritual fad so to speak. Actually, I can see both sides of of the argument. One of the problems I think is the way in which we in the west are trained.

    It can leave one with feelings of annoyance and bewilderment regarding not feeling accepted. Rajiv Malhotra is correct that Hindu leaders are missing out on many followers by not being very welcoming. IMHO I see two “problems “. For instance if I go to a priest and say I want to become Catholic I would get “formal classes” on Catholicism and related subjects. I would be given several months of instruction as an adult convert. We get to learn The Bible, spiritual history, philosophics and ritual protocol. . Protestants have less intense training but they still have some as adult converts. As a finally, there is baptism. Baptism is an event. It is symbolic of the spiritual adoption of one's new spiritual identification. Sort of like a wedding ring perhaps. OK, coming from that back ground to being told basically that “if you think you are a Hindu then you are one” makes the aspirant feel as if s/he is not taken seriously.

    So, we go from a culture where training is rigid to a spiritual laissez-faire concept and it can leave one feeling quite adrift and ignored.

    IMHO, one of the reasons ISKCON ( Hare Krishna) is so successful is that they actually teach people and allow them to satisfy their spiritual curiosity. Here in the Bay area they have classes every Wed at one temple and Sunday at another. They are very helpful in guiding perspective converts.

    I am not crazy enough to think my suggestions for formal instructions will change anything, but I do think the guru who brought ISKCON and the Western guru who brought the Kauai’s Hindu Monastery to the west were onto something.... IE TEACHING.......

    Secondly, I think sometimes westerners make the mistake of thinking all Indians are devout Hindus. I made that mistake and I should know better as in “aren't all blacks religious”. So I got told repeatedly that I can never be a Hindu, until I met spiritual, devout Hindus who had an entirely different view point. Fortunately, I am retired and get to spend unlimited time in the library and on line reading and learning, For most working people with families etc this isn't so.

    What I mostly got out of that conversation is that I am not alone in finding my own way. People like I am, who must basically teach ourselves can be dangerous in that we go with what we think something means, and then if we pass it on enough, it can actually do what some fear most, dilute or change concepts that have been long standing. It is not our intention but if one does not teach a child how to talk, they will eventually invent their own language. Then in a generation or so the original way of expression will be unrecognized all because no one took the desire of the child to speak as anything other than a fad.
    Last edited by satay; 21 October 2014 at 09:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Namaste Mystical Soul,

    You have made very good points. In fact, the issues you have raised why there are not many people adopting Hindu Dharma even though it offers such a rich form of spirituality. The reason is that Hindu Dharma is not an organised religion.

    However, if you want to convert formally, it is not that there are no institutions working on this. AryA SamAj holds conversion ceremony for the new converts. Ramkrishna Mission also helps in conversion and provides teaching materials on Advaita practice. I think Shaiva Siddhanta and Kashmir Shaivism accepts converts.

    There are many sects/traditions within Hindu Dharma. Once you accept any Guru's tradition they provide you teachings and practices about that tradition. You are formally given DikshA by Guru of that tradition and you have to follow the path as prescribed by Guru.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    I see it from a different point of view. We as ~humans~ are bent on doing. We are aligned to achieving , gathering, controlling, and advancing. 'Converting' falls within this venue.

    Just as one enjoys the ceremony of graduating, one feels something was achieved. The ceremony of conversion is like that. I have arrived. I am part of something that I was not a part of before. Yet 'you' are the same person, but you feel different for some reason.

    So, some people need this and it is fine, noble and worthy of one's effort. But in the final analysis, do I really need some license to come to know myself? Do I need to ask permission to come to know the Supreme via a particular school ? For those that have not thought this through completely and need the support of some formal approach , then the answer is yes. Then the ego is satisfied, but not destroyed. What then was gained? I now just wear another false view of myself. Before I was a ( fill in the blank on the religion one practices initially) not knowing my true stainless nature, and now I am a hindu not knowing my true real nature (SELF). What has changed ?

    What joining a formal group offers is a structured way to learn a particular school, in this case one of the 6 systems of indian philosophy. This is very valuable. Yet I rarely see this blossom. The intent is there, but for some reason the 'stick to it-ness' erodes over time and one is still in the same spot as they were before all the commotion began.

    So, yajvan , are you saying do nothing ? No, this is not what I am saying. If you join a group then do it with an energy level that brings you to your goal vs. the want to comply and be accepted. This occurs when one is young, and not so much when one is seasoned with time.

    Yet my point is this... when you come to know your SELF it does not care what group you in. This SELF is not hindu, christian, muslim, or the like. the only one that seems to care is the ego and that is what keeps you from the this realization. That is , the dharma of SELF is for all.

    ...do as you see fit.

    iti śivaṁ
    Last edited by yajvan; 22 October 2014 at 09:40 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4
    Join Date
    October 2014
    Location
    CA, USA
    Age
    75
    Posts
    118
    Rep Power
    462

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namasté

    I see it from a different point of view. We as ~humans~ are bent on doing. We are aligned to achieving , gathering, controlling, and advancing. 'Converting' falls within this venue.

    Just as one enjoys the ceremony of graduating, one feels something was achieved. The ceremony of conversion is like that. I have arrived. I am part of something that I was not a part of before. Yet 'you' are the same person, but you feel different for some reason.

    So, some people need this and it is fine, noble and worthy of one's effort. But in the final analysis, do I really need some license to come to know myself? Do I need to ask permission to come to know the Supreme via a particular school ? For those that have not thought this through completely and need the support of some formal approach , then the answer is yes. Then the ego is satisfied, but not destroyed. What then was gained? I now just wear another false view of myself. Before I was a ( fill in the blank on the religion one practices initially) not knowing my true stainless nature, and now I am a hindu not knowing my true real nature (SELF). What has changed ?

    What joining a formal group offers is a structured way to learn a particular school, in this case one of the 6 systems of indian philosophy. This is very valuable. Yet I rarely see this blossom. The intent is there, but for some reason the 'stick to it-ness' erodes over time and one is still in the same spot as they were before all the commotion began.

    So, yajvan , are you saying do nothing ? No, this is not what I am saying. If you join a group then do it with an energy level that brings you to your goal vs. the want to comply and be accepted. This occurs when one is young, and not so much when one is seasoned with time.

    Yet my point is this... when you come to know your SELF it does not care what group you in. This SELF is not hindu, christian, muslim, or the like. the only one that seems to care is the ego and that is what keeps you from the this realization. That is , the dharma of SELF is for all.

    ...do as you see fit.

    iti śivaṁ
    HELLO! GREETINGS! thank you for your comments,
    In a way, you are saying what I am saying. Although I was not suggesting that Hindus change the way they operate, I was simply comparing how people in the west learn as opposed to the east. (at less according to my observation). It is cultural as well as spiritual and in circles where it has operated like that the numbers have increased and people have been given guidance on how to advance their pursuit of self discovery.

    The statement that Hindus have missed opportunity actually came from Rajiv Malhorta who sees it as maybe something that might be improved upon. I simply happen to agree.

    Your statement that "What joining a formal group offers is a structured way to learn a particular school, in this case one of the 6 systems of indian philosophy. This is very valuable. Yet I rarely see this blossom. The intent is there, but for some reason the 'stick to it-ness' erodes over time and one is still in the same spot as they were before all the commotion began."
    is true in many instances yet I have known concerts to work very hard years after they did so because it is something they want and in a sense had to fight for as opposed to just having been given it by birth right. Although I have not taken a scientific pool, it seems to me from my comparatively limited interaction with ISKCON (who gives a ceremony and somewhat structured classes) that the number of devotees who have been with that group in excess of 30 years speaks for itself.

    This statement
    "So, yajvan , are you saying do nothing ? No, this is not what I am saying. If you join a group then do it with an energy level that brings you to your goal vs. the want to comply and be accepted. This occurs when one is young, and not so much when one is seasoned with time."

    In my case I have joined a group in such a way. It is a wonderful Satsang group but even as such there are many questions I pose to which they just say "it doesn't matter" or what ever you do is OK". Though these loving people are well meaning I sometimes want and need deeper answers. hence I end up using the computer as my guru.

    However there are many in situation who do not have that option (location as in lack of Hindu population, professional responsibilities etc), I am also speaking for them as they have commiserated with me over the lack of assistance.

    I am not sure I agree with your statement about seasoned with time UNLESS you mean spiritual age. I sir am chronologically older than you and can assure you that I am not seeking "pageantry". I am way past that. Under your statement however at least as I perceive it, one would not need a guru because s/he could propel themselves under their own enthusiasm. As far as acceptance I notice that Hindus worship "alone" more so that westerners. So yes religion for us is a (historically) unity concept. Not saying it is "right" or "wrong" but that it is.

    Sincerely ,
    AUM

  5. #5
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    namaste

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical Soul View Post
    I am not sure I agree with your statement about seasoned with time UNLESS you mean spiritual age. I sir am chronologically older than you and can assure you that I am not seeking "pageantry". I am way past that. Under your statement however at least as I perceive it, one would not need a guru because s/he could propel themselves under their own enthusiasm. As far as acceptance I notice that Hindus worship "alone" more so that westerners. So yes religion for us is a (historically) unity concept. Not saying it is "right" or "wrong" but that it is.
    I am happy that older and wiser people are joining us on HDF. And, you are correct - 'seasoned' is not the content of age I was referring to, but to the unfoldment of one's true stainless Self.

    I wish to add one more comment and hope it is not taken out of context. That is, I am not correcting anyone here or suggesting one has an unfair thought that is incongruent to mine. So, with that in mind let me offer this for the general HDF reader.

    When coming to the notion of a guru, this is a very sensitive and personal matter that the native has to consider. The guru is beyond the teacher. Some will say, oh yes, I know this. The guru is the highest. But one really needs to get their minds around this. The guru ( the fully accomplished one) is the SELF in the physical form. He or she is none other then the Supreme here on this good earth. Until one experiences this , the full impact of this notion will be remain dormant.

    The best that the internet will offer will be information. The best that HDF will offer will be information co-mingled with knowledge and a dash of wisdom here and there. It does not have the capacity to replace the guru. It DOES have the capacity to replace a teacher or guide, but not the guru. This is why I have said many-a-time here, HDF is here for one's support but not to off-set or usurp the offerings that the guru can bring. If one's spiritual development is predicated on HDF then there will be dis-appointment on the horizon. I say this out of caring for one's unfoldment.

    For some here, we have been spoiled/blessed/graced with having a guru even for a short period of time. Yet just like a flame touching an unlit match, even for a moment, it is enough to begin that new flame to burn and take hold as a flame. Some burn brightly , others not so much , but it lasts a lifetime.

    iti sivam
    Last edited by yajvan; 22 October 2014 at 07:17 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #6
    Join Date
    July 2010
    Location
    The Holy Land - Bharat
    Posts
    2,842
    Rep Power
    5499

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Namaste,

    Very thought provoking post Mystical Soul; makes you look at the glaring shortcoming in Hinduism in the West with no gurus/teachers to teach/guide the prospective converts. I wish there were easy solutions, and if it is any comfort to know, even in India average people in big cities learn things mostly by self study or from family elders. There is no regulated/organized curriculum in place to help people become familiar with their own religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    namast�

    What joining a formal group offers is a structured way to learn a particular school, in this case one of the 6 systems of indian philosophy. This is very valuable. Yet I rarely see this blossom. The intent is there, but for some reason the 'stick to it-ness' erodes over time and one is still in the same spot as they were before all the commotion began.
    iti śivaṁ
    Interesting observation of the non-blossoming of the effort when newness is gone and 'stick to it-ness' erodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~
    Yet my point is this... when you come to know your SELF it does not care what group you in. This SELF is not hindu, christian, muslim, or the like. the only one that seems to care is the ego and that is what keeps you from the this realization. That is , the dharma of SELF is for all.

    iti śivaṁ
    Group identity is probably needed when one is starting out and is at the lowest rungs of the spiritual ladder. When climb to the summit has been made through dharmic living and one has come to know the self, then all the labels become meaningless. If what is true at the top were so evident to a beginner at the bottom, then there would be no need for affiliation, as what the affiliation would produce is already there. So, the new seekers do need some guidance to get proper instruction and not have their own interpretations perpetuated, resulting in dilution of ideas; and in the diluted ideas not producing the desired results.

    Pranam.

  7. #7

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Pranams Mystic Soul,

    First let me say I can not answer as well as Devotee, Believer and Yajvan Prabhu's. But I will give my view from a western perspective and going from a totally non religious practice and background to starting a practice based on Hinduism.

    I first became Buddhist for around 1 year and stayed in monasteries and practiced meditation, I was only 19 so I think that perhaps I was a bit to restless and needed something more active at the time. I came upon ISKCON as they are very active in preaching and teaching and it helped me a lot for a few years. But within Gaudiya Vaishnavism there are 2 types of devotees, one is more into actively teaching and the other is more into personal bhajan or adoration for the supreme by more concentrated practice, or so the theories go. I sought out Buddhism but Sri Krsna in some ways found me through his devotees being active, if they were not in the market place maybe my fate in spiritual life would be different, or maybe I would have found them by my own desire to find what was missing at the time, who knows....

    Even I have taken Disksha not once did I ever feel that I converted to anything, the practice of devotional life and mediation has often been a very natural process, albeit sadhana at times is very hard, so I am in full hearted agreement with Yajvan Ji, that we practice to be the self, the real self and manifest the qualities through sadhana of that self. So in many ways once one practices the way of Dharma it almost becomes something closer to avoiding any type of conversion, for this concept of conversion is really a social convention, plus we are already converted from the true self into the illusion of being something. When I am in my best type of consciousness which comes via sadhana and perhaps grace I dont get the feeling that I have changed into anything, the feeling is more like arriving home, back to our original asana, seat.

    Perhaps due to some of the over enthusiastic preaching by some I have no intention to ever convert anyone, I made my own choice by what I read and the discussions I have had with people who also practice. So I sometimes get stuck in a dilemma, shall I also be active in trying to prove something and change a persons direction with effort or is there a natural path where people will by some say mysterious action become naturally inclined and then seek out actively what they are looking for.

    Buddhism in the west is growing faster than Hinduism, and they do not preach, they teach in their own settings, but never do they actively try to make converts, but many people have become attracted to that path like a magnetic simple because they are not actively trying to make any converts.

    Hindus generally do not try to convert people, but in my experience every Indian when asked is more than happy to share what they know, if you become inspired and adopt that lifestyle usually they are very pleased and they welcome you.

    Religion has been scarred by evangelists and made some sort of separation between themselves and the so called common man. In my hearts of hearts I wish everyone could take more of the vedic and Sanskrit cultures into their hearts, but I never saw anything good that came through force.

    I feel its a very delicate subject and when we cross cultures there can be many misunderstandings, on both sides. i rest my own heart to help others just by trying to be sincere, not just a man of knowledge which I am not but try to be a developed human being, when I am not. I have 4 children, and I have many books on different philosophies and listen to a wide range of talks from many different sources and traditions, my children ask what is our religion, I tell them I dont know, you have to make your choices as I can only inspire you, my son wants to be a yogi when he grows up, my one son is a Buddhist, my daughter just wants to be spiritual and love the world and my eldest son believes in the potential of consciousness and love, I am very happy with that type of diversity.

    May all beings be free from misery and attain the sublime nature of the true self by any means they can to get out of the dangerous jungle of samsara.

    I visit some sites online where western people are into spirituality rather than religion, they are tired of the western approach of conventional Christianity, and they either become aggressive Atheists or end up lonely without any foundation. There is a massive amount of people who would fit right into Hinduism, they are ripe but they have no real direction, I often ponder how I can be of use to direct them, but I have no qualifications as a teacher because I am still a neophyte student.

    If I had one wish and enough money I would love that we have a university of a sort, where all the good and valid practices would be taught and practiced. Its a dream that will never happen because to many people identify themselves to strongly with one thing or another and that corrupts the ability to learn and listen to others views.

    Ys

    Md

  8. #8
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Vannakkam all:

    My experience has differed from what many have said here, as the joining of a group has only strengthened the commitment and sadhana over the years. I never tire of daily sadhana, pilgrimage, etc. It's far stronger now than it ever was.

    My observations of others have been similar to my own experience, but then, I don't get out much. Yes, many do come take a look, then go off on some other tangent, but those who do stick with it have their lives and relationships with God and Guru strengthen over time. The temporary visitors don't last long.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 22 October 2014 at 08:47 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Perhaps what is required is not so much formal teaching, instruction and a conversion ceremony, but satsang. If you convert to Catholicism you get all this, but the essence of what you receive is the company of others following the same path - all the formal stuff is really just an excuse to get people together. I don't see too many opportunities for satsang if you are adopting Hinduism in the west, apart from the likes of ISKCON or the mission groups. What would really help is more informal gatherings at people's homes to discuss dharma - the extra stuff is not necessary (unless you have a real psychological need for it)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    October 2014
    Location
    CA, USA
    Age
    75
    Posts
    118
    Rep Power
    462

    Re: Conversion to Hinduism too laissez-faire??

    Quote Originally Posted by KasparHauser View Post
    Perhaps what is required is not so much formal teaching, instruction and a conversion ceremony, but satsang. If you convert to Catholicism you get all this, but the essence of what you receive is the company of others following the same path - all the formal stuff is really just an excuse to get people together. I don't see too many opportunities for satsang if you are adopting Hinduism in the west, apart from the likes of ISKCON or the mission groups. What would really help is more informal gatherings at people's homes to discuss dharma - the extra stuff is not necessary (unless you have a real psychological need for it)
    Namaste ALL


    Thank you for your responses, this topic came to mind as I read this from a book I am studying called Yoga's Forgotten Foundation. On the section of faith, the author said: “Because of faith groups of people are drawn together, remain together, intermarry and reproduce rearing children in the substance of that faith that their collective group is subconsciously committed to uphold” It is like Kasper Harper said the company of people following the same path, which can over time provide strength, comfort, joy and a sense of deep belonging that in some cases transcend blood bonds.


    Since time immortal, humans have been members of clans, and tribes and groups that support who we are and what we believe. Some of the societal events we accomplish are called milestones. Milestones include such events as marriage, birth, professional accomplishment and in some religions a celebration.


    I guess all I am trying to say is that people don't NEED marked celebrations for religious conversion anymore than they NEED wedding ceremonies or bridal showers, it is just something humans do to commemorate places in time.


    I love my satsang group. I can also see why ISKCON is so successful. At the ISKCON temples here they have lots of opportunities to learn and interact socially. They have many adherents who have been members for twenty and thirty years. I think that may be because ISKCON knows enough about cultural needs in the west that they met those needs and are reaping the benefits. Also noted is that all of the devotees are not westerners of European decent but many are of Indian decent


    I think we strengthen each other in faith and that two or more together in some aspect of shared worship enhances the others.
    AUM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Is Jainism an integral part of Hinduism?
    By Parikh1019 in forum Jainism
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 17 August 2014, 01:23 PM
  2. khalsa rejects
    By GURSIKH in forum Sikhism
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 26 March 2012, 02:28 PM
  3. Christianity, politics of conversion in eyes of Mahatma Gandhi
    By Parikh1019 in forum Abrahamic Religions (Closed For Posting)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01 December 2011, 09:06 AM
  4. A Need for a United Hindu Voice
    By Surya Deva in forum Politics - Current Issues
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 13 September 2010, 09:27 AM
  5. Teaching others about Hinduism
    By Ramakrishna in forum I am a Hindu
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 27 February 2010, 10:35 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •