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Thread: Prove God exists, how?

  1. #21
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    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam Vrindavan: Your son is right, in that we can not prove the existence of God, in logical terms. It's outside logic and the intellect, and that's where most of his experiences have been, I'm guessing.
    So how would you go about differentiating between a delusional, hallucinatory experience, and a real one, caused by an actual interaction with an almighty deity; taking into account that subjective experiences like this are utterly unverifiable?

  2. #22

    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Namaste maxpsycho,

    What is the difference between a delusion and an alteration in ones neuro epigenetic landscape? More to the point, if any perceived change in your own genetic make-up is beneficial to your future generations, rather than simply to your own very limited self; why would one question this, other than for self admiration and a desire to live for ever; at your own children's great expense?

    The ego that is unaware of its own self repetition amongst the future generations in space and time, which are an obvious result of a multiversity and of the multifaceted aspects of time; as is so very strongly implied by the highly apparent patterns of nature, observable by those who chose to see them.
    Who then is deluded here: He who names the unnameable or he who believes only that which he sees; usually to the great detriment of his other senses?

    Your perspective is, to my mind; somewhat blinkered by your own limited illusion of self.

    No offence intended,

    Kind regards.
    8i8

  3. #23
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    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    What is the difference between a delusion and an alteration in ones neuro epigenetic landscape? More to the point, if any perceived change in your own genetic make-up is beneficial to your future generations, rather than simply to your own very limited self; why would one question this, other than for self admiration and a desire to live for ever; at your own children's great expense?
    What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    The ego that is unaware of its own self repetition amongst the future generations in space and time, which are an obvious result of a multiversity and of the multifaceted aspects of time; as is so very strongly implied by the highly apparent patterns of nature, observable by those who chose to see them.
    Sounds like babble to me (no offense intended here either). Again, seems irrelevant to the topic and again; is it not a jump from recognising patterns to extrapolating that there is a perpetual self repeating ego, which is so "obviously" implied as a result of "a multiversity and multifacted aspects of time" (what does that even mean?!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Who then is deluded here: He who names the unnameable or he who believes only that which he sees; usually to the great detriment of his other senses? Your perspective is, to my mind; somewhat blinkered by your own limited illusion of self.
    Naming the unnameable is a contradiction in terms, which ties in with my idea that it boils down to poorly defined, often self-refuting and contradictory terms. Can you think of something that cannot be named, for example? To try and shroud serious questions about belief in god, faith and religion, with pseudo-mystical hogwash is just dishonest. All I am doing is trying to separate actual defined ideas that can be disputed, from ideas that are so ill-defined and elastic as to render them irrelevant. I don't have an illusion of self, I have a definition of it (admittedly limited by my own reference points). I am a mammal of the human species (specifically homo sapiens sapiens), and my identity is a collection of labels, memories, opinions, thoughts, beliefs, ideas, vocabulary among many others. If I rely on my sight to determine the validity of a claim, I don't immediately shut down my other senses. Neither do I discard empirical knowledge about said claim. I am however interested to know, how you're so sure of this whole other realm that presumably is outside the reach of sensory perception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    No offence intended
    Don't worry, none taken. :-)

  4. #24

    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpsycho View Post
    What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
    sanātana dharma.

    Please do come back and discuss when you are versed in this pretext, we might then be able to converse reasonably upon this subject.
    If it sounds like babble; please do consider the possibility that you are constrained by your own limited understanding.

    For example, the human linguistic capacity places limits upon our understanding and a veil upon our minds; perhaps you might consider learning a second language, if you don't already speak one, my apologies if you do already. This opens up an understanding of the importance that the nature of nomenclature has upon our conciousness and our perception.

    Kind regards.
    8i8

  5. #25

    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpsycho View Post
    ... I am however interested to know, how you're so sure of this whole other realm that presumably is outside the reach of sensory perception?
    Perhaps out side of your perception, but not that of others. We non of us see or hear in the same way, nor with the same light.
    We are all different, some of us are able to detect much more subtle nuances than others; Where as others able to shout louder. Why limit our requirements of proof to one small subgroup who have, it would seem to me, a limited perception and particularly objective motivations?

    Especially if it is damaging to the environment.

    We might consider particle spin as a good place to start an explanation of this, if it works for Physics then I'm happy to run with it; then x-ray crystallography, perhaps Jyotiṣa?
    Last edited by Mana; 04 December 2014 at 07:12 AM.
    8i8

  6. #26
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    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Namaste,
    Perhaps out side of your perception, but not that of others.
    I was quoting you in this case - so are you suggesting that your senses do perceive another realm which is, dare I repeat myself, unperceivable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Particle spin would be a good place to start an explanation, if it works for Physics then I'm happy to run with it; shall we start with x-ray crystallography, or Jyotiṣa?
    I hate to keep doing this - but what does this have to do with the question of the "proof of god"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    sanātana dharma. Please do come back and discuss when you are versed in this pretext, we might then be able to converse reasonably upon this subject.
    If it sounds like babble; please do consider the possibility that you are constrained by your own limited understanding.
    I wouldn't dream of saying that I know everything - the only thing I'm certain about is that I know very little. But again - appeal to supposed expert knowledge is no excuse here. The questions I asked in my first comment still stand unanswered. Why do you believe the tenets of Sanatana Dharma over Islam, or Christianity, or Bahai'ism? If your starting premise is belief, why is that? Why not start with non-belief and see if you can reason yourself towards belief?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    For example, the human linguistic capacity places limits upon our understanding and a veil upon our minds; perhaps you might consider learning a second language, if you don't already speak one, my apologies if you do already. This opens up an understanding of the importance that the nature of nomenclature has upon our conciousness and our perception.
    As a matter of fact I am able to converse and write fluently in at least two (English and Hindi), and am able to converse in an additional two languages (Punjabi and Gujarati). But I don't think of language as a limit upon understanding - there is no conspiracy by "language designers" to veil our minds. Language is a tool that our species has developed over time to describe objects and ideas. And I admit that in the absence of telepathy and clairvoyance, it's the best tool we have. Some people are clearly able to describe what they think and feel better than others. But just because one feels limited in their vocabulary to be able to describe an experience - doesn't imply that the experience is transcendent or supernatural or evidence for a creator.

  7. #27
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    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpsycho View Post
    So how would you go about differentiating between a delusional, hallucinatory experience, and a real one, caused by an actual interaction with an almighty deity; taking into account that subjective experiences like this are utterly unverifiable?
    Vannakkam: I'm sorry to be going off topic here, as the topic at hand is helping a caring father man who sees his son straying from theism. It is not a debate on the merits of atheism.

    However.... This argument has been going on for a very long time. Visions and overwhelming senses of God's presence (in other words, mysticism) happen, at least according to the tons of personal testimony. Scientists have often explained it as delusion. I'm sure many mystics of the Victorian era were put in insane asylums for expressing it. Maybe that's how the idea to remain silent about it came about. Some rationalists think yore just plain crazee!

    The bottom line, in my opinion, is that until said scientist or 'logical' thinker has such experiences, they will simply never believe it can happen to others.

    Aum Namasivaya

  8. #28
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    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: I'm sorry to be going off topic here, as the topic at hand is helping a caring father man who sees his son straying from theism. It is not a debate on the merits of atheism.

    However.... This argument has been going on for a very long time. Visions and overwhelming senses of God's presence (in other words, mysticism) happen, at least according to the tons of personal testimony. Scientists have often explained it as delusion. I'm sure many mystics of the Victorian era were put in insane asylums for expressing it. Maybe that's how the idea to remain silent about it came about. Some rationalists think yore just plain crazee!

    The bottom line, in my opinion, is that until said scientist or 'logical' thinker has such experiences, they will simply never believe it can happen to others.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Sir, with all due respect - I am not suggesting that those who have these experiences are lying. In fact I'm sure that many, many people truly have these experiences. My issue is with the source of these experiences, i.e. are they truly transcendent, or are they like myriad other experiences, completely explainable as a result of a hallucination, drug-induced euphoria, or seizure or another such phenomenon. Why believe that they are transcendent until you have actually exhausted all other alternative explanations?

    Furthermore, I'm not talking about the merits of atheism either. I am trying to stay on topic by saying that since the beginning of human history, there has not yet been a single piece of verifiable evidence, presented for the existence of such a deity. It's all the more surprising, considering God, given his/her/its infinite power (by any religious definition), doesn't have to do much to convince anyone of their existence. And if presented with the hypothesis of God and faith, I think that if you are truly interested in the proof and truth of the concepts, then it's incumbent upon you to ask the difficult questions, and not hide behind mysticism.

    With regards to personal testimony, I only have one question - what do you make of the personal testimonies of thousands if not millions of people, who don't follow the same faith as you? Do you believe in the personal testimony of people who say that Jesus spoke to them and told them that all other religions are false? Or substitute prophet Mohammed in his stead? Or L.Ron Hubbard?

  9. #29

    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpsycho View Post
    ... I hate to keep doing this - but what does this have to do with the question of the "proof of god"?
    Linguistics, or words, are quite likely "stored" and are developed in the nuroepigenome, as such so is the word "God". This is a common notion in Vedic tradition as sounds are seen to emerge from a field having vibration, before form, and form before eventually being heard and lastly written.

    I am not looking for proof of god, if you take the time to read my initial reply to this thread; I personally recommend God be viewed as a conjecture not a proof and that certain axioms should be first learned before tackling the concepts here.

    sanātana dharma to my mind encompasses all belief, including those of the scientific schools, all branches.
    Language evolves, and the way in which it evolves effects our thought. This happens over long periods of time and between cultures, math is of course as a pinnacle and crowning jewel of this, perhaps its origin ...

    Telepathy, now I prefer to speak of empathy over telepathy, it is a rare enough commodity its self without seeking explanations of synchronisity of thought. Empathy leads to a greatly enriched heightened perception of the world.
    This might be perceived as telepathy by some.
    More importantly perhaps though, I believe that a much greater depth of resolution is found in all of the senses when empathy is cultivated and nurtured. Of course this notion would be incomprehensible to one who does not have any experience of it.

    Kind regards.
    8i8

  10. #30

    Re: Prove God exists, how?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpsycho View Post
    ... there is no conspiracy by "language designers" to veil our minds. Language is a tool that our species has developed over time to describe objects and ideas. And I admit that in the absence of telepathy and clairvoyance, it's the best tool we have. Some people are clearly able to describe what they think and feel better than others. But just because one feels limited in their vocabulary to be able to describe an experience - doesn't imply that the experience is transcendent or supernatural or evidence for a creator.

    I shall have to admit to being a little bemused as to why you chose to speak of linguistic conspiracy, clairvoyance or telepathy. I have not made mention any of these concepts and nor has any one else; I can't help but wonder why you chose to bring them to the discussion? A curious position indeed; I hope that I have not offended you, perhaps in suggesting that your own limits may impeach your understanding of reality?

    Now then, were we not going to investigate the existence of a 5th dimension through an examination of particle spin?

    Kind regards.
    8i8

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