Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

[Gill Harley]

Hello and warm greetings to all

I am looking for help.

I am wondering if and where there is any reference in any of the four Vedas - Rig, Sama, Yajur or Atharva - to the doctrine of karma.

I'd be grateful for any advice you can give me.

Many thanks.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Hello and warm greetings to all
I am wondering if and where there is any reference in any of the four Vedas - Rig, Sama, Yajur or Atharva - to the doctrine of karma.
Many thanks.

Namaste Gill,
I am not certain if you are looking for a specific area of the Veda (see below) on Karma… Karma is just the word for action as you already know. Wonder if you are looking for works that say if you do this , then this will happen? Or the the general principle of Karma?

The Itihasa's ( from iti+ha+asa or "so it was") or epics such as Ramayana Mahabharata and I would add Vasistia'sYoga to this list, talks of the results of ones actions and karma are deduced from these sloka's and parables. Of the 3, the closest to the action-reaction conversation is in Vasistia's Yoga ( recommended reading for one who has perhaps been practicing upasana for ~ 10+ years or so and needs more info and inspiration).

Now, specifically the Mimamsa Sutra's of Jaimini is another as it deals with Vedic rites, and these rites are part of the Karma Kanda part of the Ved (again see below and the HDF link shown). This work is not for the faint at heart or the beginner ( not suggesting you are either here).

If you wish to research Karma, I would begin with the Bhagavad-gita as it is the cream of the Vedas. Specific chapters are dedicated to this knowledge. Chapters 2-3 and 5 are a must, yet reading all 700 ( some say 701) verses will be a good investment of time. That said, it is wise to read this by multiple authors, as knowledge is different in different states of consciousness.

Some show Arjuna as down trodden, others show him as a perfect student, etc. I subscribe to Arjuna as an excellent sisya and will even go so far to suggest that Arjuna and Krsna are Nara+Narayana, but that is another discussion and is taken up on a post here on HDF.


Extra credit portion of this conversation
We are Karma-krta or action born bodies that resides on this earth ( so tell me something I don't know you are thinking). Yet what kind of action can we perform?
If you are thinking from the school of Yoga - then there are white (Sukla ~ pure), black ( krsna). Mixed (sukla+ Krsna) and asukla-krsna ( neither white or black). Each produce a certain result e.g. happiness, sorrow, some happy+some sorrow, and ones that are devoid of happiness or sorrow.
Now of you were thinking from a Mimamsa point of view which comments on the actions of the ved , then there is nitya-karma, naimittika-karma, kamya-karma, pratisiddha-karma. Each deal with a certain part of the native to perform obligatory actions, occasional rites, optional rights, prohibited actions, etc.
Is there more? Sure Vihita karma prescribed by the Vedas, Sancita karma or residual (left overs) that remain dormant, Agami-karma from the results in this life and will mature in this life time ( we are more familiar with these - I work now, get paid later), Prarabdha karma from past life's that may mature ( bare fruit) in this life. As you can see this is no small matter for study.

Yet Krsna I believe has the best insights on this if you care to look at this string presented here on HDF , it will stimulate the concepts http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10895&postcount=1
Hope this helps.


REFERENCES for your consideration
__________________________________________________________________
Veda's
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=11831&postcount=1
Karma Kanda that deals with yajya (ceremonial actions and rites) for the successful completion of actions and sankalph.
Upanasana Kanda - worship
Jnama Kanda - knowlesdge in general and of Brahman in specifics.
As time passed additional knowledge was attached to the samhitas (collection) of mantras, that is the Brahmanas (discussion of the ritual), Aranyakas ( aranya means "forest", or knowledge for the mendicent on retreat) and Upanishads (philosophical writings that capute the wisdom of the veda's for comprehension and meditation).
The veda in all contains 16 types of books, divided into 4 groups: Rig, Yajur, Sama, Atharva
6 systems of Indian Philosophy
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7818&postcount=1

Karma ( some books I would suggest will assist are referenced at the end of the definition)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=11885&postcount=1

[Gill Harley]

Many thanks indeed. That it most helpful. I will look at your links and references but first, some further clarification:

You ask what sort of karma I'm interested in here. I think what I'm trying to get to the bottom of in my thinking (and this is part of research for a book) is when the doctrine of karma (i.e. that what happens to us in this life is the result of past actions, often in a previous life and also what we do in this life will impact on our next incarnation) was first was mentioned in Indian scriptures.

I have practised various forms of yoga for more than 30 years. On top of that, I am very familiar with the Bhagavad-gita and the whole body of literature of which it is a part (Srimad Bhagavatham, Mahabharata and so on). In fact, I have used various stories from the SB in my book, Lord of the Dance.

I also believe I understand the concept of the doctrine of karma as explained by Krishna to Arjuna. Well, let's say if I don't understand it now, I never will, given the number of times I've read and meditated on the BG. I have also practised various forms of yoga for more than 30 years.


But according to my research, these books - the Upanishads, the Forest Teachings and other 'distillations' - are thousands of years younger than the original four books - Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva, the books that I believe are the source of Sanathana Dharma of which Hinduism is a latter day development.

So I am interested to see if I can find a reference to the doctrine of karma in any of the original four books.

Many thanks for your interest.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Gill,

Yours is an excellent question. Where did the doctrine of karma come from? Is it rooted in the Veda? We definitely know that the Upanishad texts do contain the karma doctrine, and as you�ve rightly observed, they are of later composition (1500 BCE onwards).

Traditionally, the former portions of the Veda are called the karma-kanda (ritual portion) which consist of the Samhitas (Hymn Collections), and the Brahmanas (ritual texts). The karma-kanda (karma is derived from kri ~ to do or to act) is called as such because it deals primarily with Vedic rituals prescribed for various occasions. However, much of the knowledge later spelled out in the Upanishads is implicit within the karma-kanda, including the doctrine of karma in its original sense.

In its original sense, karma meant action through ritual acts as prescribed by the karma-kanda. If one were to perform a certain ritual, recite a certain hymn, live a certain way exactly as prescribed, a given reaction (fruit of the action) must occur. The fruits of one�s action were not just for a person to enjoy in this life, but also in the hereafter. Performance of the necessary rituals/actions correctly was the definition of Dharma for a person while s/he is alive, and it was the Dharma of one�s descendents to perform the rituals for the ancestors who�ve passed on. I am sure you can see how this idea is closely linked to the doctrine of karma and rebirth (punarjanma) as we have it now. Much of this is explained in the philosophy called Purva Mimamsa (Enquiry into the Former) expounded by Sage Jaimini, which places greater emphasis on the karma-kanda.

But, why was it so? Why would performance of certain actions guarantee certain reactions? This is because of something the Veda calls Rta (Cosmic Order). The entire universe works in consonance with Rta. Rta provides an equilibrium in the universe, so every action must have a reaction. Rta is greater than the Devas, and all the Devas adhere to Rta in the Veda. It is not up to the Devas to decide whether to provide the fruit of one�s rituals/actions - the power is within your hands, within your words and deeds; and its fruits are guaranteed within the Rta. In the latter portions of the Veda known as jnana-kanda (knowledge portion ~ consisting of the Aranyakas and Upanishads), Rta is equated with the Supreme Brahman.

Here is something I found about Karma in the Veda:

Karma and Reincarnation
The principles of Rta and Satya [Truth] imply a strict adherence to law and rule in conformity with the aim and purpose of the processes of the universe. Any action which originates in a sense of personal individuality set in opposition to or incongruous with the universal order of Rta and Satya should obviously mean the work of a nemesis, as a natural reaction to such action, endeavouring to set right the balance of cosmic equilibrium which has been disturbed by it. This principle of the redounding of the effect of action upon the doer of it is the metaphysical, ethical and psychological regulative force called Karma, which requires the doer of such action to pass through a series of experiential processes called metempsychosis or rebirth in other conditions and environments than that in which the action has been done. Thus it would be clear that the law of Karma and reincarnation is a scientific law of the integrality of the cosmos. The Vedas accept the operation of this principle and recognise the fact that one's future life depends on the way one lives the present one. We shall have occasion to revert to this famous doctrine of Karma, and Samsara in our studies of its further development.
~Swami Krishnananda
Source

The doctrine of karma exists in an embryonic form in the Samhitas and Brahmanas. Although the Rigveda mentions it about 40 times, it is primarily used in the sense of sacrificial acts. The Brahmanas specifically identify karma with liturgical acts. Although there is "absence of ethical or moral concepts in pre-Upanishadic Vedic literature", the ideas of transmigration and rebirth occur both in the samhitas and the Brahmanas.

The Upanishadic exposition of karma is somewhat ambivalent in the sense that they uphold karma as a moral law, and in the same vein, teach how they can be "destroyed or arrested and rendered sterile."
Source

I hope that helps.

OM Shanti,
A.

[Gill Harley]

Thanks, Agnideva...that's most helpful.

I don't think Westerners like myself really understand the true doctrine of karma, despite our reading of the Bhagavad-gita and much of the wider Vedas. We think we have to suffer and suffer and suffer and suffer because of our previous misdeeds, and we say to each other 'well, it must be your karma for you to suffer like this, so there's nothing you can do about it'.

I was really interested to see - and do correct me if I've misunderstood - that the literature about it doesn't really take on a moral dimension until the Upanishads, and that much before that, particularly in the oldest book, the Rig-veda, it is only mentioned as part of ceremony instigated, I'm assuming, to mitigate the effects of certain karma - which, if this is the case, is a long way from putting up with an intolerable situation because you believe that you are paying off your karma that way...

Is that your reading of it, I wonder?

[atanu]

Thanks, Agnideva...that's most helpful.

I don't think Westerners like myself really understand the true doctrine of karma, despite our reading of the Bhagavad-gita and much of the wider Vedas. We think we have to suffer and suffer and suffer and suffer because of our previous misdeeds, and we say to each other 'well, it must be your karma for you to suffer like this, so there's nothing you can do about it'.

I was really interested to see - and do correct me if I've misunderstood - that the literature about it doesn't really take on a moral dimension until the Upanishads, and that much before that, particularly in the oldest book, the Rig-veda, it is only mentioned as part of ceremony instigated, I'm assuming, to mitigate the effects of certain karma - which, if this is the case, is a long way from putting up with an intolerable situation because you believe that you are paying off your karma that way...

Is that your reading of it, I wonder?

Dear Gill,

Vedas are truly timeless. They do not use any term which will make the sayings time bound. Brahma is the mind. Rudra is the first "I am" realisation. etc. etc.

A jiva, minus the ego, is Brahman. There is a discussion betwen Prajapati and Indra where, Prajapati is told: "If you enquire KA (who am I?), then you are that". To clear the mind of all notions and to see clearly beneath the veil, karma is prescribed. Lord Agni is prayed to remember and convey to Gods the good actions performed. All sat karma is intended to erase with finality the notion that I am this body-mind.

Whatever happens in unexplained way, is actually past karma fructifying and is often called daivam(fate). However, there is no fate that one has not created oneself. In, Yoga Vashista, sage Vashista says to Rama: The present action is stronger than the reactions of past karma.


Sanatana Dharma is not fatalistic. Some karma effect may overbear but still with self effort and patience bad karma is wiped out, since Self (truth) is stronger than the Rta (order). The Self is the ordainer of the Order.


Om Namah Shivaya

[Gill Harley]

Thank you Atanu Banerjee.

My view is that the teachings of the wider Vedas may be timeless, but different parts of were taught orally and then eventually written down ar different times throughout a 3,000 year period , and it is quite evident how different cultures prevailed at the different times of writing, and these different cultures appeared to have different priorities and needs from their spiritual teachings.

For my own research, I am very interested in how the doctrine of karma is presented in the Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva-vedas, the four oldest of the books. And I am particularly interested in hearing that there more than 40 mentions of karma in the Rig-veda and that it is mainly in a ceremonial context. I'd be very grateful to receive the references for these.

Many thanks.

[atanu]

Thank you Atanu Banerjee.

My view is that the teachings of the wider Vedas may be timeless, but different parts of were taught orally and then eventually written down ar different times throughout a 3,000 year period , -------.

The immortal Devas have remained same - none added or removed.

For my own research, I am very interested in how the doctrine of karma is presented in the Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva-vedas, the four oldest of the books. And I am particularly interested in hearing that there more than 40 mentions of karma in the Rig-veda and that it is mainly in a ceremonial context. I'd be very grateful to receive the references for these.

Many thanks.

What is ceremony is Yagna -- a karma to propitiate and expand the Devas that in turn expands the yagni.

Anyway, lets see what turns up. Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

A few verses that may help you.

This sacrifice is the navel of the world.

RV I, 164, 35128

All power to our life through sacrifice!
All power to our lungs through sacrifice!
All power to our eyes through sacrifice!
All power to our ears through sacrifice!
All power to our backs through sacrifice!
All power to Sacrifice through sacrifice!

YV IX, 21

All this, whatever exists, is made to share in sacrifice.

SB III, 6, 2, 26

Sacrifice is a reliable ferry.

AB I, 13 (III, 2, 29)

The boat which father and son use for
transport undergoes no damage.
Now sacrifice is the boat of the Gods.

JAIM B I, 165

One indeed is the sacrifice!

JAIM B II, 70

Worship does not consist solely in prayer or feeling or knowledge; it is action.
Although, the sacrificial element implied within the concept of karma is not loaded with ideas of morality; a call is made upon flowing Soma -- the thoughts, to flow towards Lord.

As an aside, I would point out that from Vedas it is difficult to determine who is greater, Lord Indra or Lord Soma --- both make each other strong. Lord is the one who has Soma under control. And Soma is the father of Lord. Soma is the promordial Atma of sacrifice.

Karma is not physical. It begins in mind, as Soma.

Creation through Yagna (karma)

RV X, 130

1. Sacrifice [resembles] a loom with threads extended
this way and that, composed of innumerable rituals.
Behold now the Fathers weaving the fabric; seated
on the outstretched loom. "Lengthwise! Crosswise!" they cry.
2. Behold now a Man who unwinds and sets the thread,
a Man who unwinds it right up to the vault of heaven.
Here are the pegs; they are fastened to the place of worship.
The Saman-hymns are used for weaving shuttles.
---------


Priestly Task

Rtvijah

26

RV X, 101

1. Awake, my friends, united in heart.
Kindle the fire, my numerous comrades.
I call to your aid the attendants of God,
the Fire, the Sun-Horse, the Goddess Dawn.
2. May your thoughts be harmonious; spin them out properly.
Construct a rowboat to cross the broad waters.
Do all things in order; make ready the implements.
My friends, let the sacrifice now proceed.
3. Fix well the ploughshares, fasten the yokes.
The furrows are ready, sow then the seed!
If your word is received by attentive hearers,
the richer the harvest will be for our sickles.
4. The Seers prepare the ploughshares for ploughing;
they lay the yokes on either side.
These are they who, possessed of wisdom,
know how to win the favor of the Gods.
5. Arrange the buckets in their proper places
with ropes securely adjusted beneath.
We desire to draw from a copious fountain
where water flows freely, inexhaustible.
6. From the fountain whose bucket is well-prepared
with good strong ropes, where water flows freely--
from this copious fountain we draw, inexhaustible.
7. Refresh the horses and win the prize!
May your chariot become a vehicle of good fortune,
with press stones as wheels, its armor the sacred
vessels, its chassis the soma-vat!
From this I will draw the beverage of heroes.
8. Prepare a cowshed where your lords will drink.
Stitch a coat of armor strong and broad.
Make castles of iron unassailable.
Fix well your vessel. Let it not leak!
9. I bend to our cause at this solemn moment,
O Gods, your divine and holy attention.
May a thousand streams gush forth from this offering
like milk from a bountiful pasture-fed cow.


Tasks of Men



27

RV IX, 112

1. We all have various thoughts and plans
and diverse are the callings of men.
The carpenter seeks out that which is cracked,
the physician the ailing, the priest the soma-press.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
2. The smith with his store of seasoned plants,
with his feathers of birds and stones for the tips,
enkindles the flame to make arrows and then
seeks out a client bulging with gold.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
3. I am a singer, my Dad's a physician,
my Mummy's task is to grind the corn.
Diverse are our callings but we all aim at wealth;
we run in its wake like a cowherd trailing cows.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
4. A horse desires to draw a light cart,
gay hosts to evoke a laugh and a jest,
a male desires his mate's approach,
a frog a flood to plunge within.
Flow, Soma-juice, for the sake of the Lord!
The worshiper pours out the Soma-juice (indu) to the words of the refrain invoking Indra, the lord.

The sacrifice of Secular Man

YV XXX

1. Inspire, O Vivifier God, the sacrifice, inspire
the lord of the sacrifice to take his share!
May the heavenly Angel, the purifier of the will, purify our wills!
May the Lord of the Word make pleasant our word!
4. We call upon the Lord, distributor of wonderful bounty,
the One who looks upon men.

5. for the priesthood a priest
6. for Song a public dancer
for Duty a courtier
for Laughter a comedian
for Dexterity a wainwright
for Firmness a carpenter
----------
18. for the Dice King a gambler
20. for Pastime a prostitute
for Lust a woman with a spotty skin
for Pleasure a musician

22. Now he binds to the stake the following eight types of men:
one too tall one too short
one too stout one too thin
one too pale one too dark
one too bald one too hairy

--all to be offered to Prajapati.


The creation is a sacrifice, which is a karma. Ego suffers on taking up the karma on itself. The best karma is to upload the karma where it belongs.

As regards your view that Vedas were written over a period of 3000 years, I have my reservations. May be physically yes. But the revelations are not time constrained.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Gill Harley]

Thank you so much, Atanu, for such a rich banquet of verses! Each of them confirms my view that the original four books were based on what has come to be known as shamanism - although this is a Siberian term and would not have been used in the Punjab at the time of the writings of the Vedas.

The weaving of the web, for instance, is a common shamanic symbol and used all over the world.

The other commonality is that the shaman would travel between the three worlds (upper, lower and middle) to find the causes of his tribes' disharmony (karmic effects) and bring back the solution for it from one of these other dimensions.

This 'journeying' to the other dimensions was (and still is) attended by much ceremony to bring in the devas, to gain their attention and their cooperation which they are more than happy to give because they so love the poor, struggling and fallible human being for his courage to keep on going in the face of such great adversity. The devas love us like their own hearts.

Of course, I agree with you that the devas revelations are not time constrained, and are even going on today. The devas don't change - but what I am equally fascinated by is the wonderful human being who is in no way a lesser being than the deva and indeed, could at one time have been a deva - as many devas are known to queue up for human bodies. To me, the human being is as fascinating as the devas, and I love to learn about how the human being changes and his culture changes over time and, therefore, how he finds different ways to work in symbiosis with the devas.

It's a wonderful, growing and evolving relationship for which we can never stop giving thanks!