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Thread: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

  1. #11
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    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley View Post
    Thank you so much, Atanu, for such a rich banquet of verses! Each of them confirms my view that the original four books were based on what has come to be known as shamanism - although this is a Siberian term and would not have been used in the Punjab at the time of the writings of the Vedas.

    The weaving of the web, for instance, is a common shamanic symbol and used all over the world.

    The other commonality is that the shaman would travel between the three worlds (upper, lower and middle) to find the causes of his tribes' disharmony (karmic effects) and bring back the solution for it from one of these other dimensions.

    This 'journeying' to the other dimensions was (and still is) attended by much ceremony to bring in the devas, to gain their attention and their cooperation which they are more than happy to give because they so love the poor, struggling and fallible human being for his courage to keep on going in the face of such great adversity. The devas love us like their own hearts.

    Of course, I agree with you that the devas revelations are not time constrained, and are even going on today. The devas don't change - but what I am equally fascinated by is the wonderful human being who is in no way a lesser being than the deva and indeed, could at one time have been a deva - as many devas are known to queue up for human bodies. To me, the human being is as fascinating as the devas, and I love to learn about how the human being changes and his culture changes over time and, therefore, how he finds different ways to work in symbiosis with the devas.

    It's a wonderful, growing and evolving relationship for which we can never stop giving thanks!
    Dear Gill,

    Thanks are due to you Gill, for this opportunity. And though what you have noted is in general agreeable yet I do not mind to point out the fallacies. Please accept or reject them.

    Weaving is the creation of the mind -- like a cobweb.

    I think you are looking at the whole thing as a historian would look. And this will lead to utter failure. The truth is not different in Siberia and in India. Siberia and India are in your mind. It is the TRUTH (the Pragnya) that has woven a concept of Siberia and India.

    You should realise the effect of your own conditioning on whatever you get/read. Please do not come to a conclusion with a thinking mind. But let the verses be mulled over and digested in silence of the mind. The verses are translated and do not convey exactly the same thing to different minds. It is unfortunate that we fail to realise that it is actually the contemplation of the sounds that gradually takes one to the truth which is silence and which is the Lord of the word.

    Shamanism is a mere word. The greatest ceremoney is not physical. At present I cannot post the verses but you should have faith that I am telling the truth. At least the following from what already has been posted will show what is the most pertinent meaning of 'spinning' ----- hehe (other meanings are not invalidated)

    2. May your thoughts be harmonious; spin them out properly.
    Construct a rowboat to cross the broad waters.
    Do all things in order; make ready the implements.
    My friends, let the sacrifice now proceed.


    The next to the greatest ceremoney is enquiring 'KA'? And the greatest ceremoney is contemplation and concentration on the source of the word (OM or I or whatever is your convention) and extinguishing the mind like a piece of camphor, which burns to finish itself off.

    Sage Yajnavalka indeed says that it is karma which sets apart a man from another. The natural corollary would be that it is karma, which enables a man to attain karma free state (avimukta).


    Yes, it is Purusha that hosts all the devas. There is none higher than the one who breathes. That is what the Upanishad says.

    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 22 April 2007 at 02:54 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Ronding off

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee View Post
    Dear Gill,

    --------
    Sage Yajnavalka indeed says that it is karma which sets apart a man from another. The natural corollary would be that it is karma, which enables a man to attain karma free state (avimukta).
    ------
    Om Namah Shivaya



    From Brihadarayanaka

    BU IV, 4, 23. This has been said in the verse: The eternal greatness of a knower of Brahman is neither enhanced by works (karma) nor diminished. All that matters is to know the nature of Brahman. One who knows is untainted by evil action.

    Therefore, he who knows this, having become peaceful, controlled, detached, patient, and concentrated, sees the atman in himself and sees all in the atman. Evil does not overcome him, but he overcomes all evil; evil does not consume him, but he consumes all evil. -------




    CU VIII, 5 ------ It is the atman, free from evil, free from old age and death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst: this is the atman, whose desires are truth, whose purpose is truth. Just as people here on earth act in accordance with command, living in the country or on the piece of land of their choice--

    6. just as here [in this life] the world earned by work (karma) fades away, likewise the world beyond earned by meritorious deeds (karma) fades away also. He who departs from this world without having found the atman and true desires will lack freedom in every world. But he who departs from this world, having found the atman and true desires, will enjoy freedom in every world.


    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 22 April 2007 at 04:13 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #13

    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Many thanks, Atanu, for all your help and guidance on this.

    I will take these verses and meditate upon them in my heart.

    May all your prayers be granted and all your efforts rewarded.
    Gill

  4. #14

    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    I think what is interesting here - and actually a similar course can be found in sacred literature the world over - is how (in all 'shamanic' cultures) there was originally an accent on sacrificing 'something' in a sacred ceremony to induce symbiosis and harmony with the devas, for instance, the horse sacrifice. So although the owner of the precious horse was making a great sacrifice, the horse was too and was in fact, making the greatest sacrifice by giving of its life and this was attended with great ceremony to bring the horse into it as a willing partner, rather than unwilling victim.

    But over time, it appears that the idea of what should be sacrificed changed and developed. The sacrifice then became something human beings had to adjust in their behaviour and then even further down the line, in many cultures throughout the world (including some Indian ones) the human himself had to be sacrificed, and so we had human sacrifice. Probably the peak expression of this is of Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for all mankind on the cross, and the idea that one will go to "heaven" purely by believing in that act and praying to Jesus.

    Of course, nowadays, it's difficult to get anyone to even give up a few hours of the time for charity, let alone nebulous gods that they no longer believe in, and so it seems as if the idea of sacrifice has been almost completely lost.

    By the way, I've inferred from something Atanu said that he thought it may not be correct to view these matters as a historian. I am not a historian but I do find history interesting, because I find it helpful to go back in time and learn from the ancients and try to reclaim what has been lost. But it is also vital, imho, to be able, while doing this, to separate history from myth i.e. to know when you're dealing with literal truth, and to know when you're dealing with metaphors.

    And how do you tell the difference between the two? Well, a good friend of mine was once taught by a highly enlightened history professor who used to say that:

    "The only difference between history and myth is that myth is true".

    I heartily agree!
    Gill

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    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley View Post
    Thanks, Agnideva...that's most helpful.

    I was really interested to see - and do correct me if I've misunderstood - that the literature about it doesn't really take on a moral dimension until the Upanishads, and that much before that, particularly in the oldest book, the Rig-veda, it is only mentioned as part of ceremony instigated, I'm assuming, to mitigate the effects of certain karma - which, if this is the case, is a long way from putting up with an intolerable situation because you believe that you are paying off your karma that way...

    Is that your reading of it, I wonder?
    Namaste Gill,
    Perhaps this will assist...
    Karma and Reincarnation : The Vedantic Perspective/Swami Muni Narayana Prasad. Reprint. New Delhi, D.K. Printworld, 2006, 106 p., $11 (pbk). ISBN 81-246-0022-8. [Contemporary Researches in Hindu Philosophy and Religion, No. 2]
    Site : https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no44421.htm

    I have the greatest respect for this author.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley View Post
    -----there was originally an accent on sacrificing 'something' in a sacred ceremony to induce symbiosis and harmony with the devas, for instance, the horse sacrifice. So although the owner of the precious horse was making a great sacrifice, the horse was too and was in fact, making the greatest sacrifice by giving of its life and this was attended with great ceremony to bring the horse into it as a willing partner, rather than unwilling victim.

    Namaste Gill,

    I-i-1: Om. The head of the sacrificial horse is the dawn, its eye the sun, its vital force the air, its open mouth the fire called Vaisvanara, and the body of the sacrificial horse is the year. Its back is heaven, its belly the sky, its hoof the earth, its sides the four quarters, its ribs the intermediate quarters, its members the seasons, its joints the months and fortnights, its feet the days and nights, its bones the stars and its flesh the clouds. Its half-digested food is the sand, its blood-vessels the rivers, its liver and spleen the mountains, its hairs the herbs and trees. Its forepart is the ascending sun, its hind part the descending sun, its yawning is lightning, its shaking the body is thundering, its making water is raining, and its neighing is voice.


    Do you think that above is a fleshy horse?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley View Post
    ----The sacrifice then became something human beings had to adjust in their behaviour and then even further down the line, in many cultures throughout the world (including some Indian ones) the human himself had to be sacrificed, -----
    Yes, its called renunciation. Without renunciating the fruits of one's toil to God, not much can be attained. However, this renunciation becomes easy once the realisation dawns that "I am this body" is false notion altogether. Jesus on the cross is a good reminder of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gill Harley View Post

    "The only difference between history and myth is that myth is true".

    I heartily agree!
    I heartily agree too. History lies about real personalities. The myth tells the truth using mythical personalities.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee View Post
    Namaste Gill,

    Do you think that above is a fleshy horse?.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Namaste Atanu and Gill (et.al)

    All that I have studied and read is, in the final analysis, either horse or human , it is the symbol that is offered in yagya, not the physical component.

    I look to the Rig Ved as reviewed by R L Kashap , Sri Aurobindo, Kapali Shastri, etc. for insights on this... These pandits and muni's have studied the Ved for quite some time, and 'broke the code' so to say.
    I suggest , if there is interst, we start a new thread on this, as the concept and knowledge is far reaching, that is, in the veda all of Creation is considered a yajya ( some write it as yaag-ya)

    I look to the Purusha Suktam for some additional ideas.
    The Purusha Sukta refers to the Parama Purusha, Purushottama, Narayana, in his form as the Virat Purusha, the source of all creation. He ( His form) having countless heads, eyes, legs, says/informs us He is manifest everywhere, and beyond the scope of any limited method of comprehension. All creation is but the fourth part of him. The rest is unmanifested.
    So what's my point? How did this whole universe manifest , that is, Purusha express Himself? Through yajya… this yajna was called 'sarvahut', or the full-offering of all.
    The act of creation itself grew out of yajna, this notion sacrifice. Yet one needs to better understand this notion, and a new thread would be appropriate ... yet let me finish this one thought:

    Who was worshipped at this sacrifice? It was the Purusha. Who performed it? Brahma, the creative aspect of the Purusha. What was sacrificed? Again, the Purusha himself, his great body that contained all of creation.

    That is, that Purusha would consume himself in the fire of creation, to create all the worlds. From this sacrifice did all of creation emanate. This is why the sage of enlightened vision can proclaim:
    Idam brahma, idam kshatram, ime lokah, ime devah, imani bhutani, idam sarvam yad ayam atma."This Source of knowledge; this source of power; all these worlds; all these gods; all these beings; All this is just the Self." SAGE YAJNAVALKYA , BRIHADARANYAKA UPANISHAD

    Now, there is much to be learned [for me] between this info and the actions of Jesus.



    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 22 April 2007 at 06:34 PM. Reason: edits and regular corrections for read-a-bility
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Namaste Everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    The act of creation itself grew out of yajna, this notion sacrifice.
    Yes, Creation is the greatest sacrifice on the part of Brahman. THAT willed to sacrifice a part of itself, changed from nirguna to saguna Brahman, breathed jivas and this universe out, set them in a cycle of systaltic and diastolic rhythm of time, and kept the jivas tainted by karma within itself at the end of a cycle until commencing the next one.

    Every moment, every atom is sacrificing a part of itself, to eventually reach its natural state of pure energy and consciousness. For every atom is nothing but a crystallized form of energy. Jesus Christ's sacrifice of his body is highlighted by his ascension, and that was his main message: that the body should be sacrificed to realize the Self.

    Since our body, mind, emotions, thoughts and every other add-on to the Atman is only matter, it behooves us to learn to sacrifice them progressively in order to realize the Self.

  9. #19

    Smile Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Om Sai Ram,
    Namaste Gill,
    Though you have asked where is it mentioned the law of karma in the Vedas, I would like to state from Srimad Valmiki Sundarakandam(Which is the 5th Section of Srimad Valmiki Ramayanam)that Lord Hanuman or Maruthi surmises within himself after seeing Goddess Sita (Wife of Lord Ram)in the Asoka Vanam (Vanam means Forest) (Asoka Vanam is in Srilanka) that "Yathi Sitapi Dukhartha Kalo hi Durathikramaha" - this means, if a Godess like Sita is in this pitiable condition,it can be concluded that TIME is a factor which none can overcome.

    Pl Note : Godess Sita had spent 10 months in Asoka Vanam when Lord Hanuman visits SriLanka.

    That is why in Chapter 26,Sloka 50 Sage Valmiki writes that :
    "Priyanna Sambhave Dukham Apriya Dhadhikam Bhayam"
    "Thabyam hi ye viyujyente namsteshaam Mahaatmanaam"

    ie;If happiness comes ones mind is filled with joy,if unhappiness comes our mind is filled with sorrow,Those people who have risen above both Hapiness and unhapiness are really great men. My salutations to them.

    (This sloka is written when Godess Sita is all set to commit suicide).

    Pl Note : Srimad Valimiki Ramayanam is considered as the Aadhi Kavyam
    Aadhi means First and Kaavyam means Poem.
    The Sundara Kandam is considered as the Upanishad.ie; the essence of Vedas.

  10. #20

    Re: Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

    Sai Ram Arvind Sivaraman

    You must be a fellow devotee of Sai Baba to address me in such a way.

    I always love to hear about Ram and Sita, and stories from the Ramayana. In fact, Swami Himself has written his own very wonderful version of the Ramayana. Have you read it? To me, curling up with it is like curling up with warm honey and toast and mother's milk, and is the perfect salve or balm to this rigours of this Kaliyuga!

    However, for the purposes of this discussion, I am looking for references to karma in the much earlier core four books of the Vedas, the Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva.

    But thanks for reminding me about such a wonderful story!
    Gill

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