Mention of doctrine of Karma in Vedas?

[Gill Harley]

Gentlemen

Many thanks for all your posts. They are all so interesting and helpful, especially the book recommendation. I will see if I can get it through Amazon.

There is, however, one point on which I have a different opinion. From my own experiences of shamanism, I would say that although the symbolic sacrifice of the horse was a vital part of it, so was the literal actual sacrifice of the blessed animal.

To perform a healing, or to bring harmony to their peoples, shamans cross through into one, two or three different dimensions in rapid succession (they wouldn’t say that this reality is any more real or unreal that that of the upper and lower worlds that they visit regularly.) But when a shamanic healing is to take place, the actions whose symbols resonate in the upper and lower worlds must also have their physical counterpart in this middle world. The effect of the literal sacrifice in the middle world (earth) anchors the event to what is happening in other dimensions – as above, so below - bhur bhuva svah.


So, in short, I think it is likely that they did sacrifice a ‘real’ horse while, at the same time, honouring and celebrating its symbolic aspects.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Everyone.
Yes, Creation is the greatest sacrifice on the part of Brahman. THAT willed to sacrifice a part of itself, changed from nirguna to saguna Brahman,
....
Every moment, every atom is sacrificing a part of itself, to eventually reach its natural state of pure energy and consciousness. For every atom is nothing but a crystallized form of energy. Jesus Christ's sacrifice of his body is highlighted by his ascension, and that was his main message: that the body should be sacrificed to realize the Self.
.

Namaste Saidevo,
What you say is wise. What people tend to think is sacrifice is painful.
From reading the veda's there is joy in Yagya, this giving up process.
Jesus' message IS extreamly profound. I see it as giving up the material for the spiritual.
When one sadhu asked our teacher , 'did Jesus suffer' , he said, anyone that says "I and my Father are One" does not suffer. This is the profound teaching of Jesus. Most neo-modern day thinking puts their attention on Jesus on the cross, vs. Jesus on Easter, arising from the dead, really meaning ( to me ) arising from the material ( 3 gunas) to the Spiritual.
That the SELF is eternal - fire does not hurt it, knifes do not cleave it, water does not drown it ( all parables of Krsna). This is the teaching I belive that is eternal to Jesus-ji. This is the yajya of Jesus.

pranams,

[Gill Harley]

But the interesting thing about the Christian philosophy - and particularly the Roman Catholics - is that they believe that they no longer have to make any sacrifce themselves, now that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for them.

So long as they believe that Jesus made that sacrifice for them, and pray to him for their redemption, they don't have to sacrifice anything.

[saidevo]

Namaste Gill Harley.

But the interesting thing about the Christian philosophy - and particularly the Roman Catholics - is that they believe that they no longer have to make any sacrifce themselves, now that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for them.

So long as they believe that Jesus made that sacrifice for them, and pray to him for their redemption, they don't have to sacrifice anything.

Would this mean that they can wage war on humanity as with the war on Iraq and act as the world's super cop as done by President Bush the twice born Christian? plunder and destroy the people's health as do the food and drink multinationals? spread rancor and falsity through the powerful electronic and print media as do the world media barons? pollute the very planet and deprive posterity of natural resources as the US government in main does? build churches in every nook and corner in India invading and destroying Hindu holy places but not give an inch of land in their own sacred Vatican? revile the most sacred and oldest path to divine and harvest souls for consumption of Jesus Christ? While money is described as the root of all evils, it is the path to power for these people who call themselves followers of Jesus Christ; and power corrupts the soul, more so when it is absolute power.

Perhaps, like the utopian Rama Rajya, this is the modern Christ Rajya. If it is so, it is even worse than the past sins of Christianity, making Jesus Christ a scapegoat all along the annals of history.

[sm78]

But the interesting thing about the Christian philosophy - and particularly the Roman Catholics - is that they believe that they no longer have to make any sacrifce themselves, now that Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for them.

So long as they believe that Jesus made that sacrifice for them, and pray to him for their redemption, they don't have to sacrifice anything.

That they are still born on earth and not heaven suggests Jesus's sacrifice didn't quite work.

[sm78]

Jesus Christ's sacrifice of his body is highlighted by his ascension, and that was his main message: that the body should be sacrificed to realize the Self.

I may not know what Christ's message or Christianity's message is through the image of Jesus on a pole. It may be what you are saying ~ but it boils down to people worshiping the body of a dead Christ . Somehow worship of christ on a cross turns out to be the anti thesis of "transcend the body message". The story of Christ resurrecting in the same body kind of makes it more body-driven philosophy.

Indeed concept of body as the only reality is hard grained thought of the judeo-christian world and the main motive behind these ideologies.

I tend to think that we hindus are sometimes too eager to display sama-bhava of religions. If only our counter-parts shared the same enthusiasm!

******
Whenever I see the symbol of cross with Christ on it ~ my mind instinctively registers a negative vive. It seems odd and quite against the beauty and fullness of world we live in. It is very anti-life and "I am the body" symbol to me. I am just talking about what mind registers without much intellectual rationalization. Has anyone here spend long times inside churches ?? Did you find the experience same as being out in nature or visiting an ancient temple ?? Did anybody really register's "I am not the body" vive looking at the image of Christ on a cross ?? If yes, it will be interesting to hear.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

I may not know what Christ's message or Christianity's message is through the image of Jesus on a pole.

Namaste sm78,

Chirst's messages are relatively simple...

• Love they neighbor as thy SELF.
• Seek the Kingdom of heaven - it's within you
• Physician, heal thy self
• etc. ( more if you wish)

His wisdom was pretty straight foward, yet we as humans have an infinite way to mis-interpret and go our own way.

pranams,

[Znanna]

"You hear what you want to hear, you see what you want to see."

- the Rock Man

(Harry Neilsson, the Point)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Point!



ZN