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Thread: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

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    Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Namaste,

    Recently,I heard a discourse on the TV.The speaker said something like 'the Vedas are the breath(not sure of the exact word) of God'.I was like "WHAT?"


    I have always heard and read that the Vedas are 'Apourusheya' i.e. not man made and I also heard that no God/gods created the Vedas,the Vedas always existed and will always exist.

    I thought about this for some time.The speaker belongs to a sectarian tradition and I felt that is a common belief,all sectarian traditions say that their deity is The God of the Vedas or that Their God caused the Vedas to come into existence.But the man who spoke was no ordinary person, he is a Pandita.If a scholar has such an idea then an attempt must be made to know what he was trying to convey.

    1.What is the origin of the word '
    Apourusheya' or the theory it conveys about the Vedas?Is this word found in the Veda itself or was it said so about the Vedas in any other scripture?

    2.Do any mantras in the Vedas(/Mantra Samhita) refer to the Veda as existing by itself?

    3.Did God create the Vedas or did Devatas(gods) create the Vedas?

    OR


    Did God or the Devas come into existence because of the Veda Mantras?


    -Capital 'G' God refers to the greatest God
    (All sectarian systems have the belief that their deity is the greatest God among all gods.For the sake of clarity let us use some well known examples:Lord Vishnu for the Vaishnavas,Lord Shiva for the Shaivas,Sri Devi for the Shaktas etc.)
    -Capital 'G' God can be taken as Brahman too.(For those who believe God is formless,nameless,attribute-less etc.)
    -Small 'g'- 'gods' refers to all the Devas mentioned in the Vedas.(Some don't believe in distinctions/hierarchies among gods/Gods i.e.
    God=gods or God=gods=Brahman)

    Simply putting,which or who came first

    The Vedas came first==>and then from it came God/Brahman or all the gods
    OR
    Brahman/Great Sectarian Gods==>caused the Vedas to come into existence(or as the Pandita said a 'Deity/God' breathed or exhaled and the Vedas came into existence)

    Why all these questions?Because it helps to know what is the relationship between the Vedas,God(Sectarian Greatest God/Brahman) and the Devas mentioned in the Vedas.

    1.If God(i.e. a Sectarian God) or gods(Devatas) created the Veda,then it implies that though the Veda is supreme knowledge,God/Devatas are more powerful than it.
    2.If the God(a Sectarian God) and all Devas came into existence because of the Veda Mantras,then the Vedas are naturally independent and maybe higher than God and gods.
    3.If Brahman created the Vedas and everything is Maya(/his maya shakti)then this means something else.
    4.If both God & Vedas exist externally from the beginning,I don't know what that means(who created which or
    which caused whom)

    Some may feel the
    se questions are stupid or as I am a non-native English speaker I could have put them improperly.If any member can comprehend the questions,please do answer.Thanks.

    P.S.Does Deva-s and Devata-s mean the same set of beings as I am assuming or are they different beings?


  2. #2

    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Namaste,

    It is unfortunate that members affiliated with sampradaya-s speak so authoritatively on the veda-s, especially the karmakandin portions, when they, as per tradition, have no business in relegating what the veda-s import or what their significance(s) is(are). The regulation has always been that members of particular vaidika recensions can only be approached when it comes to such matters. This is precisely the main reason why the veda-s are not universally applicable, and understandably and rightly so. I'd be more than willing to entertain, and even articulate detailed answers to the questions you have asked, but such a thorough endeavor would, unfortunately, be outshouted, or rather out-posted, by sectarian perspectives that are, ultimately, irrelevant to not only what the veda-s entail but also to a forum section (after all, this is the Vedas & Brahmanas section of HDF) that should be exclusively separate from sampradayic influences.

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Dear Ram

    Who owns or creates

    1. Gravitational force -- property of attraction between two pieces of matter
    2. Centrifugal force
    3. Laws of Thermodynamics
    4. Speed of Light

    Why does the heart beat?
    Why does the sun shine?
    Why does wind blow?


    If I say the "Laws of Thermodynamics" flow from the breath of BhagavAn, how can you challenge that?

    What is, IS. Astitva.

    Astitva is the breath of BhagavAn, ParamAtmA, Brahman.

    vAsanAdvAsudevasya vAsitam bhuvana trayam
    sarvabhUtanivAsosi vAsudeva namostute _/\_
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Ved means most fundamental subtle knowledge. Neither was Ved ever created nor was BhagavAn/Brahman. They are both anAdi.

    Ved is a statement of truth. Ved is the means to express the Truth that is Brahman (God).
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,

    It is unfortunate that members affiliated with sampradaya-s speak so authoritatively on the veda-s, especially the karmakandin portions, when they, as per tradition, have no business in relegating what the veda-s import or what their significance(s) is(are). The regulation has always been that members of particular vaidika recensions can only be approached when it comes to such matters. This is precisely the main reason why the veda-s are not universally applicable, and understandably and rightly so. I'd be more than willing to entertain, and even articulate detailed answers to the questions you have asked, but such a thorough endeavor would, unfortunately, be outshouted, or rather out-posted, by sectarian perspectives that are, ultimately, irrelevant to not only what the veda-s entail but also to a forum section (after all, this is the Vedas & Brahmanas section of HDF) that should be exclusively separate from sampradayic influences.
    Namaste Sudas Ji,

    Please do express your views.There may be contradicting opinions by different people as we have always had various perspectives on same things in our Sanatana Dharama.But do not hesitate to share your valuable knowledge with us,even if things here take unexpected turns.I will read all viewpoints.


    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Dear Ram

    Who owns or creates

    1. Gravitational force -- property of attraction between two pieces of matter
    2. Centrifugal force
    3. Laws of Thermodynamics
    4. Speed of Light

    Why does the heart beat?
    Why does the sun shine?
    Why does wind blow?


    If I say the "Laws of Thermodynamics" flow from the breath of BhagavAn, how can you challenge that?

    What is, IS. Astitva.

    Astitva is the breath of BhagavAn, ParamAtmA, Brahman.
    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Ved means most fundamental subtle knowledge. Neither was Ved ever created nor was BhagavAn/Brahman. They are both anAdi.

    Ved is a statement of truth. Ved is the means to express the Truth that is Brahman (God).


    Namaste Smaranam Ji,

    Ji,I am not challenging anything.I just want to know the what is the scriptural basis for the views we have today.
    All books say the 'Vedas are Aporusheya', so Aporusheyatva of the Vedas must have been mentioned somewhere in the Veda itself or
    in other scriptures.
    'Veda is the breath of Bhagavan/Brahman' too is accepted but is it found in the Veda or elsewhere?
    It helps to know what the Veda is saying without relying too much on hearsay,that's all I am saying.


    Long back,I read a research book on Srauta Brahmanas,a sect of Brahmins that still rely only on the Veda.There maybe less than 1000 or even less number of Shrouta Vaidikas in whole 121 crore Indians.These expert(I mean practicing Srautas) Vaidikas who perform great Yajnas and conduct other periodic rituals(pournamasas,ishtis etc.) said in that book that they do not believe in going to temples and or in worshiping images as as there is no such thing called Murti Puja in the Veda.We all know about relatively modern organizations like Arya Samaj having these kind of ideas etc. but I was stunned to know that there exits such a group which still does only Agni based worship.I don't know if they accept other scriptures but they simply had a very very different belief set than majority Hindus.I think that is because we have two sets of scriptures,the Sruti and the Smritis.

    Most of our views are shaped based on the Smritis(Itihasa,Purana and Agama etc.)i.e. we rely mostly on the Smritis(Me too).

    (Even if we want to, we can not become Srauta Vaidikas.This point is not relevant to this discussion.)

    Yes,most things defy logic and intellectual hair-splitting will not help but at least there has to be an origin for every idea,some where the relation between the Veda,Devas & Brahman must have been mentioned.

    Maybe a Veda Mantra might have said "this (Veda) is the breath of Bhagavan/Brahman" or "this (Veda) and that (Brahman/Bhagavan/Devas) are both eternal".It would be nice to know the source as it would strengthen one's faith.

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Namaste Smaranam Ji,

    Recently,we discussed on a narrative,based on that I will spin a hypothetical situation.

    'A' is great bhakta of Bhagavan 'Abc' or some Deva 'Cba'.
    Powerful man 'X' got angry on 'A' and used a Veda mantra on 'A' to destroy him.

    (Harming others or misusing mantras is against the Veda but sometimes it happened.For those who know, the attempt to attack the Deva-lord and the mantra backfiring due to mispronunciation,isn't this a P**y**a/Kr***a?There are many such ones but I don't want to bring to fore some scarce negative scenes amongst so many good ones.)

    Two hypothetical results:
    1.The Mantra of the Veda is ultimate,once released there is no going back==>implies 'A' faces the music.
    2.'A' is no expert of mantra arts but his bhakti protects him==>as Bhagavan himself in the Lord of everything including the Veda,he is able to restrain.

    What would happen 1 or 2?This imaginary situation will help to understand relations.All members can post their views.

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    Long back,I read a research book on Srauta Brahmanas,a sect of Brahmins that still rely only on the Veda.There maybe less than 1000 or even less number of Shrouta Vaidikas in whole 121 crore Indians.These expert(I mean practicing Srautas) Vaidikas who perform great Yajnas and conduct other periodic rituals(pournamasas,ishtis etc.) said in that book that they do not believe in going to temples and or in worshiping images as as there is no such thing called Murti Puja in the Veda.We all know about relatively modern organizations like Arya Samaj having these kind of ideas etc. but I was stunned to know that there exits such a group which still does only Agni based worship.
    I am not qualified to discuss Vedas. However, forget smRtI. The Shruti speaks of Agni right? Agni is a devatA. Murti is not in the picture here. Irrespective of any mUrti in the temple, isn't the Supreme Purusha called out in the Vedas as having sahasra (infinite) heads, arms, legs, eyes? This is NArAyaN. He is called out as VishNu, as Indra, as Agni, as Rudra, as VaruNa etc. These VaruNa Agni VAyu are aspects of this Purusha of Purusha Sukta (Rig Ved 10), but the aspects can be used to call the Whole.

    Like I may say mRga-nayani, kamal-nayan, gaura , gauri. These only describe a characteristic such as shape or beauty of eyes, complexion, etc. Yet, they are used to identify a whole person.

    Also, Shiv -- all-auspicious. VishNu --- all-pervading.

    So, shruti itself speaks of the Supreme Purusha. This Purusha is the Absolute Truth. You can say therefore, your IshTa Dev is the walking talking breathing Truth. Therefore the Veda are His breath.

    Shri KRshNa goes one step further and says .... (never mind. Some other day )

    -------

    om namostav anantAya sahasramUrtaye,
    sahasrapAdAkshashishirobAhave,
    sahasranAmne purushAya shAshvate,
    sahasrakoTIyugadhAriNe namah:
    _/\_

    Obeissances to the Infinite endless (ananta) and eternal (shAshvat) Being (Purusha), of 1000 (figurative for infinite) forms, infinite feet, infinite eyes, infinite arms, infinite names, Who sustains infinite koTi yugas eternally
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    'A' is great bhakta of Bhagavan 'Abc' or some Deva 'Cba'.
    Powerful man 'X' got angry on 'A' and used a Veda mantra on 'A' to destroy him.

    Two hypothetical results:
    1.The Mantra of the Veda is ultimate,once released there is no going back==>implies 'A' faces the music.
    2.'A' is no expert of mantra arts but his bhakti protects him==>as Bhagavan himself in the Lord of everything including the Veda,he is able to restrain.

    What would happen 1 or 2?This imaginary situation will help to understand relations.All members can post their views.
    Namaste ji

    Truth triumphs. Bhakta does not mean just bhakta by emotion. If s/he is a bhakta of the Absolute Truth, of that SacchidAnanda ParamAtmA, having a righteous mind, with no wish to harm anyone, then Truth i.e. ParamAtmA will be on his side.

    If the intent of the powerful X was malicious / stemmed from ego (ahaMkAr) / pride etc. then ParamAtmA will not be on their side.

    On the other hand, here is a story from Bhagvat PurAN :

    Bharat maharaj was a devotee who got attached to the orphaned baby deer he cared for, and while leaving his body, he kept worrying "What will happen to my baby ? Who will take care of him?" [This is such a natural thing to think that it is a lesson for all parents and very hard]

    Anyway, this Bharat was reborn as a deer, but due to his previous devotional state he was born again as a jaDa (manda buddhi) human, hence called jaDa BhArat. However, JaDa Bharat was no jaDa as his brothers thought he was. He remembered his previous births and was fully Self-realized.
    Once he was lying in the farms which his family asked him to guard. A group of dacoits who were worshippers of Kali MA, caught him and brought him in the Kali temple. They started rejoicing with the intention of sacrificing him to Kali.

    KAli MA saw what they were doing, and recognizing JaDa Bharat as a big devotee of VishNu, took form and killed the dacoits instead.

    This story should say something.

    So you see, in case A, the powerful X was misusing veda mantra
    in Case B, the dacoits were misusing their relationship to Kali.

    satyameva jayate
    om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Namaste Sudas Paijavana

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post
    Namaste,

    It is unfortunate that members affiliated with sampradaya-s speak so authoritatively on the veda-s, especially the karmakandin portions, when they, as per tradition, have no business in relegating what the veda-s import or what their significance(s) is(are). The regulation has always been that members of particular vaidika recensions can only be approached when it comes to such matters. This is precisely the main reason why the veda-s are not universally applicable, and understandably and rightly so. I'd be more than willing to entertain, and even articulate detailed answers to the questions you have asked, but such a thorough endeavor would, unfortunately, be outshouted, or rather out-posted, by sectarian perspectives that are, ultimately, irrelevant to not only what the veda-s entail but also to a forum section (after all, this is the Vedas & Brahmanas section of HDF) that should be exclusively separate from sampradayic influences.

    Sudas, don't you think you're a bit unfair?
    All Hindu traditions that base their teachings on the Vedas accept them and have the right to interpret them. So why do not we allow everyone to say what he has learned about the Vedas here?
    You also can tell what you have learned and how it is perceived in the tradition to which you belong or is your favorite. I'm sure there will be those interested to hear your thoughts on the subject. And do not be worried about what you say you'll be "outshouted".



    regards

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    Re: Veda-Brahman-Devas RELATIONSHIP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    [/SIZE]Simply putting,which or who came first

    The Vedas came first==>and then from it came God/Brahman or all the gods
    OR
    Brahman/Great Sectarian Gods==>caused the Vedas to come into existence(or as the Pandita said a 'Deity/God' breathed or exhaled and the Vedas came into existence)

    Why all these questions?Because it helps to know what is the relationship between the Vedas,God(Sectarian Greatest God/Brahman) and the Devas mentioned in the Vedas.

    1.If God(i.e. a Sectarian God) or gods(Devatas) created the Veda,then it implies that though the Veda is supreme knowledge,God/Devatas are more powerful than it.
    2.If the God(a Sectarian God) and all Devas came into existence because of the Veda Mantras,then the Vedas are naturally independent and maybe higher than God and gods.
    3.If Brahman created the Vedas and everything is Maya(/his maya shakti)then this means something else.
    4.If both God & Vedas exist externally from the beginning,I don't know what that means(who created which or [/SIZE]which caused whom)
    Let me propose a quick question:
    Suppose I you hand me a rock, would it logically followed that I had created it? Furthermore, what do you suppose came first, the atoms in the rock, or the atoms in my body?

    I'd also like to provide the following (I know madhvAchArya's and Adi sha~NkarAchArya's opinion, but I'm interested in how you would approach it).
    तस्माद्यज्ञात्सर्वहुत ऋचःसामानिजज्ञिरे
    छन्दांसिजज्ञिरेतस्माद्यजुस्तस्माद अजायतः

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    Some may feel the[/SIZE]se questions are stupid or as I am a non-native English speaker I could have put them improperly.If any member can comprehend the questions,please do answer.Thanks.

    P.S.Does Deva-s and Devata-s mean the same set of beings as I am assuming or are they different beings?
    No, don't worry, your questions are relevant and I can make sense of them (although English isn't my first language either).
    In regard to the next part of your post, I believe (although I could well be wrong) that the main difference between devaH (puMsalai~Ngika) and devatA (strIlai~Ngika) is one of gender. devAH is not used to refer to devyaH (goddesses, plural of devI, i.e. goddess), whereas devatAH refers to all deities (both masculine and feminine), this is why in the Rigveda itself, there is a mantram "tAnrohidashwagirvaNastrayastriMshatamAvaha" meaning
    tAn- [you with] those, plural of tam
    rohidashwa - red horses
    girvaNaH - who likes speech/praise
    trayastriMshatam - the thirty three (dvitIyAvibhaktau/karmakArakENa, so object of the action)
    Avaha - bring here
    Here, they use the term trayastriMshatam, which is in the feminine, rather than trayastriMshantam, and this is obviously referring to the devatA-s, and it is by this action that he becomes विश्ववेदाः or जातवेदाः, just as similarly indra becomes mahendra from slaying vRitra.
    Last edited by Jaskaran Singh; 20 December 2014 at 03:52 PM.
    படைபோர் புக்கு முழங்கும்அப் பாஞ்சசன்னியமும் பல்லாண்டே
    May your pA~nchajanya shankha which reverberates on the battlefield, last thousands upon thousands of years...
    http://archives.mirroroftomorrow.org...anchajanya.jpg

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