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Thread: Reconversion

  1. #11
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    Re: Reconversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Namaskar Ji,

    These cultures and faiths, and their customs and often their languages have been utterly destroyed by the Christians, there is not enough left to piece together in order to find something coherent to return to. A few have managed to hold on to a little, but it's not enough to really revive anything. Some have tried anyway, but what they've managed to create are pale, pale shadows heavily adulterated with Abrahamic influence.

    ~Pranam
    Vannakkam: Standing at an ancient medicine wheel site on the highest hill around staring what at what seemed forever off in the horizons, all I could think of was the glory and knowledge that was lost. How sad.

    Aum Namasivaya

  2. #12
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    Re: Reconversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam: Standing at an ancient medicine wheel site on the highest hill around staring what at what seemed forever off in the horizons, all I could think of was the glory and knowledge that was lost. How sad.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Namaste EMji,

    Sometimes it feels like there aren't enough tears in all of eternity.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  3. #13

    Re: Reconversion

    Namaste to all.

    Wow!!!! Great thread!!! I want to be a part of this. I feel like this is resurrecting a way of life that has been lost to most of us, and that Abrahamic thinking is a bad diversion for us all.

    The last post, Aanandinii, made me remember one time when Dad was watching a cowboy/indian show in the late 70s or early 80s. He was at least 60 at the time (b. 1918 d 2000). I happened to look at his face. He had one tear down his stoic face. I was afraid to ask him. I wish I had. I can only wonder what he was thinking, about his Native American mother alongside his evangelical father, his NA relatives he had known when he was a child (ALL of whom I never met because they were long deceased), not to mention the discrimination he received out in public and in school when people would find out he had NA ancestry. His mother and grandmother's mistreatment for being NA in the boarding schools, the family fights over hiding/not hiding NA status. It is very emotional to write this paragraph in the context of what is happening in India, because it never got to happen for most of the NA nations in the USA. Today, in the Oklahoma Cherokee nation of my ancestors, the vast majority pass for white, live in houses like everyone else, live the white ways, and worse, over 85% of the official enrollees are noted as Baptists. This is where a lot of my anger comes from. Because I couldn't accept Christianity, I didn't have Cherokee to accept, because I could see so many Christian elements in there, thusly, the pre-Contact beliefs and forms of Cherokee beliefs were largely obliterated. It took less than 100 years for this to happen, by the end of the late 1800s.

    I appreciate the informative articles. I also second the call for Europeans to return to their pre-Christian roots. However, given the advanced state of knowledge within Dharma via Sanskrit, I don't know that it would make sense to do so, since barbarism in Europe was still prevalent well into the Common Era. However, we have history and our growth to help us not have to start all the way back there and pick up from there and continue to live as very early civilized people.

  4. #14

    Re: Reconversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    Namaskar Ji,

    These cultures and faiths, and their customs and often their languages have been utterly destroyed by the Christians, there is not enough left to piece together in order to find something coherent to return to. A few have managed to hold on to a little, but it's not enough to really revive anything. Some have tried anyway, but what they've managed to create are pale, pale shadows heavily adulterated with Abrahamic influence.

    ~Pranam
    Namaste Aanandinii,

    [My personal opinion as a polytheist, let no one take offence of it]

    I think this this true and not true. I look at myself, thoroughly brainwashed in Christian ideology since birth. But did it stick? No, it fell off easily, because it goes against my nature.

    We have to understand this: Hinduism and Judaism are true religions. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, advaita are no real religions, they are a creed. A creed is set of ideas, it is a belief. A Religion is much more than a creed, it is the heart of culture. And culture is a manifestation of the nature of people and environment. Catholicism is true religion in Italy, it really belongs to Italian culture. Islam is true religion in the Middle East, it belongs to the Arabs. For other peoples it is more like a second skin, or harness.

    The people they converted kept their culture, they only got this layer of belief. This varnish they call civilization but is no inner civilisation but rather a control system to keep people in check. These creeds are ideologies like Fascism and Communism resting on a book containing the ideology. These are kept in place by a very small minority of ideological fanatics that try to keep people in check. We can see that most clearly in Islam where they kill every one they see as a threat for their system.

    But because it is only ideology, it can be gone amazingly fast. Look how quickly communism and Fascism disappeared again. In my country not so long ago a 99% were loyal church going Christians, and had been Christians for centuries. But then came the sixties and the majority of people left at first opportunity. You can not leave your culture, but a creed? No problem.

    Now only a few percent is church going. The rest makes up his own belief. And the spiritual among them return to their roots with great success. People make the mistake that returning to the roots is reinstating the old rituals, customs, call Gods by their old names. That is sentimentalism.

    Conditions have changed. Our ancestors would have adapted to that too, changing their habits. It would not have scared them. The best example is Japan, one of the most traditional societies in the world, but effortlessly adapting to the new age, creating robots etc., but never losing her soul.

    Our Nature is unchanged, we can simply pick up, and express it. We also have to understand that the truly spiritual people have always been a minority at all times. Yes society is less in balance and harmony as it used to be, before endless wars broke out in the bronze age, but it is up to us to bring back that harmony, not to lament. Spiritual people are the cement of society.

    To me come Krishna words to Arjuna to mind:
    My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to infamy. O son of Prtha, do not yield to this degrading impotence. It does not become you. Give up such petty weakness of heart and arise, O chastiser of the enemy.
    Now we are no warriors, no sons of Indra, our dharm is not to fight wars, but our Dharm surely is to promote spirituality around us. We play the cards we are dealt with, and do not lament about things gone.

    We may also want to recognize that unfeeling fanatic Christians and Muslims are not so because of their brainwash, but mostly because of their nature. The Arabs were always an aggressive people with little self-control. That is why they needed a religion that suppressed them to get any discipline. Their religion tries to hide their true nature. They can not change their nature any more easily than we can. Only Love, peace, prosperity will gradually change that. It is the role of wise and patient to bring that about.

    I see many people who see Hinduism as a refuge. I can understand that. Living among people of lower nature can be a challenge. But that is the role that our nature has laid out for us. Let us not be dramatic, rather choose to be optimistic. The world is moving ahead. Krishna teaches that we should not lament over the world. The world is only a stage for our actions

    We better not cling to the outward side of things. They change and disappear as existence is ever changing. Only fools want to hold on the outward things of the past and project their happiness on it. Nothing prevents us from creating new traditions that express our inner spirituality. And we can be inspired by and borrow from Hinduism, Hinduism has preserved everything. But we want to embrace the inner values, not the outer expressions.

    And people are doing that all over the world, they are doing that massively. It can not be stopped. Only Islam hopes to stop it by keeping their people hostage with lots of aggression, but that is a sure way to fail. It only builds up discontent, and when the time is ripe people will shake this off.

    Many old customs have been revived in recent times but in modern ways that traditionalists do not recognize. For instance the Pagans would regularly gather in the woods and sing Hymns together. And they do it again: on happy occassons, on days of sorrow, on beautiful nights.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 19 March 2015 at 01:16 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: Reconversion

    Namaste Avyaydya,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I respectfully disagree with most of them, but then there is no need for us to agree.

    But I didn't mean to start a discussion that will hijack this thread. This is about the wonderful action of welcoming people back to a faith they perhaps didn't realize they could rejoin. I for one am very happy they are able to do so.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  6. #16

    Re: Reconversion

    Namaste,

    [My personal opinion as a polytheist, let no one take offence of it]

    Before you talk of reconversion, you need to have a clear idea what conversion really is. You need to understand what it means, why certain religions convert people, why people convert to a religion.

    The mistake that people make is seeing it in religious or cultural terms. If it were cultural it would be impossible to convert people, you can not change peoples culture, it is the most tenacious thing. A creed is a ideological brainwash for sake of power and money. Christians and Muslims pay religious tax, that is what it is ultimately about, only the believers do not see that, as they are brainwashed to see everything in religious terms, and think all the money goes to charity.

    I think it is an excellent idea to reconvert people to Hinduism. It helps that you can bring them back to the tradition of their ancestors. But if people have social, financial, educational motives to convert, you need to address them. Christians are smart to setup a school system, that allows them to brainwash the next generation. By educating them they get better jobs and they can pay more tax to them (help spread the faith). It is like a pyramid scam. Every convert is changed in another salesmen.

    If you want to discourage converters, find ways to hit the organization financially. Even if they invest large sums, they are only in it for the money. For instance high fines for tax evasion. Once it is no longer profitable they seek other markets. It is like drugs, as long as it is profitable, it is impossible to root out. And Christianity is a very smart ideology, the more you persecute believers, the more you motivate them. People are made to believe they are persecuted because they are martyrs like Jesus. Christianity has 1500 years of experience in dealing with this in many different cultures around the world. For them it is a war they are very skilled in. Also understand they work in groups and have training manuals, large databases with information, sales training to identify possible victims and how to use group processes to lure them in. It is very sophisticated.

    Not only reconverting but making people resistant to conversion is important. Warn people against the practices of Christians. Christians find it almost impossible to convert Muslims. Why? Because the Koran warns that Muslims must stay away form Christians as they can not be trusted. An even better way to make you children resistant is to encourage them from young age think for themselves. Then Christianity with its authoritative structure does not have lasting appeal even if its social sweetness seems attractive in the beginning.

    What is real bad, is what I read on this forum: ¨We all pray to the same God under different names¨. If you teach children that, they will not see the harm in converting, not realizing they betray their own tradition. Once converted, Christians do everything to alienate people from their families until they are sufficiently brainwashed to be used as bait.

    I suggest people to study Judaism. Most Jews are atheists, but they can take on any creed without stopping to be Jews. When the church forced Jews to convert to Christianity in Spain after they had defeated the Moors (Muslims), many converted. But then the Jews started to marry with the Christian upper classes and the Christians started to realize that Jews remain Jews, and that they were bigger problem inside than outside. The Spanish inquisition was about making converted Jews confess that they were still Jews. They then banned racial Jews from organizations like the Jesuits. That is why Adolf Hitler said, I do not care what creed a Jew has, whether he is Christian or not, if he has more then a quarter Jewish blood, I will kill him.

    Hinduism is in many respects like Judaism. It is very much about ancestry and caste. That is so important that Christianity mostly directs her efforts on the low casts and casteless. They will try to educate these people and make them economically more important.Their tactics are always the same. Divide and Rule. Seek the people that are most dissatisfied. Try to create divisions between people and make them fight, and so weaken them. To withstand Christianity Hinduism will need some social reforms as well. Study of Christian history and conversion tactics is very important.

    But remember: It is all about the Supreme God: Money
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 19 March 2015 at 09:11 PM.

  7. #17

    Re: Reconversion

    Namaste Avyaydya,
    Quote Originally Posted by Avyaydya View Post
    Hinduism is in many respects like Judaism. It is very much about ancestry and caste. That is so important that Christianity mostly directs her efforts on the low casts and casteless. They will try to educate these people and make them economically more important.Their tactics are always the same. Divide and Rule. Seek the people that are most dissatisfied.
    I see it differently. Judaism's very basis is in race, so their scriptures don't make, don't need t make, any sense. It is as if something was built into this people in the beginning of their journey, as if a product created from a factory, and while on their subsequent journeys they adopted everything local - from language to culture to even religion - the racial essence remained same, just as was perhaps meant to be. As I read the history, they were meant to go to the Egypt area to settle; however, I will not go into that.

    Hinduism, on the other hand, even though versed with all the "factory and product and race" thing, bases itself on a more fundamental principle - the SEED principle, that derives from being rooted in deep mystic realities of the Devata-s. And Dharma is that SEED.

    Perhaps you got a wrong impression because of Philosoraptor's magnum opus threads here in HDF about castes in Hinduism. However, the said member, and some others in the past, belonged to a particular phase in HDF where extensive shastra-quoting went on: a good thing that happened for first time on such scale (kudos to HDF) that Hindus (not acharya types necessarily) from all walks came together and TALKED TO EACH OTHER. But HDF is well past that stage now. BTW I also had one thread on Varna in Veda subforums, that I consider my single most important contribution here, but also believe that the thread is still many years ahead of its time.

    To sum up, I don't see Hindus of today, Brāhmins or others- anywhere in the world - who could claim or are claiming some form of racial superiority over others. On the other hand, two things are very evident:
    1. Hindus have a feeling of having failed Dharma, especially since the Mahabharata times, and see themselves as a degraded people.
    2. To overcome this failing, they look upto Dharma. They know that the SEED is within the grasp of anyone who cares.

    There are other points also to address, hope to do later.

    KT
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  8. #18

    Re: Reconversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste Avyaydya,

    I see it differently. Judaism's very basis is in race, so their scriptures don't make, don't need t make, any sense. It is as if something was built into this people in the beginning of their journey, as if a product created from a factory, and while on their subsequent journeys they adopted everything local - from language to culture to even religion - the racial essence remained same, just as was perhaps meant to be. As I read the history, they were meant to go to the Egypt area to settle; however, I will not go into that.

    Hinduism, on the other hand, even though versed with all the "factory and product and race" thing, bases itself on a more fundamental principle - the SEED principle, that derives from being rooted in deep mystic realities of the Devata-s. And Dharma is that SEED.

    Perhaps you got a wrong impression because of Philosoraptor's magnum opus threads here in HDF about castes in Hinduism. However, the said member, and some others in the past, belonged to a particular phase in HDF where extensive shastra-quoting went on: a good thing that happened for first time on such scale (kudos to HDF) that Hindus (not acharya types necessarily) from all walks came together and TALKED TO EACH OTHER. But HDF is well past that stage now. BTW I also had one thread on Varna in Veda subforums, that I consider my single most important contribution here, but also believe that the thread is still many years ahead of its time.

    To sum up, I don't see Hindus of today, Brāhmins or others- anywhere in the world - who could claim or are claiming some form of racial superiority over others. On the other hand, two things are very evident:
    1. Hindus have a feeling of having failed Dharma, especially since the Mahabharata times, and see themselves as a degraded people.
    2. To overcome this failing, they look upto Dharma. They know that the SEED is within the grasp of anyone who cares.

    There are other points also to address, hope to do later.

    KT
    Namaste Kalicharan,

    My post was unclear. I only wanted to bring across that Hinduism like Judaism is deeply rooted in tradition, connection with ancestry, social structure. It is the heart of a culture. I do not look at that negatively, that is how it should be. Christianity and Islam are creeds that try to mimic that by a group cult in which they can brainwash people. One is culture other is group cult. There is something to learn from Judaism, they survived fifteen hundred years of religious persecution by Christianity. There are similarities, both cultures have a priest caste that keep the culture alive.

  9. #19

    Re: Reconversion

    Namaste to all, especially to Avyayda:

    I've got a novel idea, but it requires the cooperation of billions, and I would need help in executing this plan.

    I wrote the following to Rajiv Malhotra last summer:

    ---------------------
    Given my unique position as an "other" person within my own country, I'm able to stretch myself out into directions that most people would never go. I did underground financial research for many years, and I still do a limited amount of reading to that end 10 years later.

    You know, you mention one of the things that make institutions powerful, and that is money, grants, scholarships, fellowships, all the sources that make the power of western institutions manifest. Without the US Dollar's hegemony, these institutions don't go anywhere, no? To give you an idea of what I'm hinting at, I first stumbled across a series of VERY IMPORTANT articles about India's culture around eight years ago, and I had a brief discussion with the author of these articles.

    http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/indias-love-gold-1
    http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/indias-love-gold-2
    http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/indias-love-gold-3

    Go to each of these articles and do not click on Part 2 and Part 3 links, as they don't work.

    The point of these articles is to clue you into a POTENT weapon that you have as a person of Indic ancestry. The fact is, Western society does not use, or even believe in gold and silver as money, only the Western people clearly not in positions of power [do believe in it], and that is a very tiny minority, especially in the US. The fact is, according to two documents, namely, 1) a government report that shows clearly the export tonnage of gold from the US starting in the very early 90s and 2) another report that shows MINING tonnage of gold produced and refined in the US during those given years. This adds up to a supply deficit of around 5,500 TONS of gold in the last 20+ years. Here, you just have to ask, "Where did the gold come from, if not from the mines?" The US government has to have some gold somewhere, right? Well, the official gold reserves of the US has been held at around 8,300 tons. Don't forget that we have held gold for other countries for "safe keeping" in light of World War II.

    Now, what we here are observing is a shift in wealth from the West to the East, and India is one of the beneficiaries (the gold import duties haven't helped all that much with the gold smuggling, has it?), alongside China, Russia, and other countries with a cultural affinity for gold (Russia - mainly their Central Bank realizes what's going on and want to get their gold before the scramble for it goes global). If you can communicate this with your people and realize the opportunity of turning the tables on Western powers economically, then one of the first things to fall would be [higher] education, and you would be able to blunt the reach of the Western scholars, ESPECIALLY Wendy's Children. I completely despise them, because here I am, like a tiny bug just hiding from them so they don't see me and try to quash me as a nuisance. I digress... My point is, get everyone to buy up all the gold they can afford, especially [from the American metals refineries, shunting it away from] the COMEX futures market so that there is NO MORE gold available to be traded on the futures market, and the Financial Mob of the Western world can no longer be involved in it. I see the influence of Sound Money of gold cultures from outside the US nearly every time I go into a motel or a hotel around the country; most likely, the people owning/running them are of Eastern heritage. All the while ... Americans are pawning their family jewelry at "We Buy Gold" shops after seeing people holding such signs up and down the streets for such shops, because they have to make ends meet, Indians and Chinese are buying up the gold hand-over-fist.

    Now, you might be asking, "Why in the world would I, a white person, want to put my own civilization at a disadvantage by revealing such strategic information???" Simply because my government is completely out of control. I did not vote for ANY of the people who came to power in the Executive and Legislative branches of our government since 2000, just before I started waking up and realized what was going on. Thusly, the financial behaviors of our government since 2000, I did not authorize. If you are able to get the world to bring the US government to its knees financially, then maybe we can start to do something about its imperial behaviors around the world (which I do NOT approve of and did not authorize with my vote), and that includes the destruction of the culture, the way of life of your people. I do not want to see Dharmic society to go away, whether or not I would ultimately benefit from it in my ongoing research into whether Dharmic principles are a match for my deaf Ancient ways. Already, it has opened my eyes into alternate ways of seeing things and into languages (Hindi and Sanskrit) that are very different from Western languages.

    Dhanyavaad
    ----------------

    Let me know what we can do to spread the idea.

  10. #20

    Re: Reconversion

    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    My point is, get everyone to buy up all the gold they can afford, especially [from the American metals refineries, shunting it away from] the COMEX futures market so that there is NO MORE gold available to be traded on the futures market, and the Financial Mob of the Western world can no longer be involved in it.
    Namaste deafAncient,

    You have a different perception of economic reality than I have, which is fine as it is heavily debated even amoung economists. I can only give my perception why I think this is not going to work.

    First do not even think you know how much gold there is in the world, who owns it and who has it in its possession, which are two very different things as gold is often traded without it ever changing places. The USA has strategic reserves of all resources that are vital for its economy and they are not public as the information has strategic value too. Remember that we were made to believe that the USA was out of winnable oil, and then it turned out they still had centuries of oil.

    As to gold. The reason that countries like India still buy a lot of gold is because of a growing population that has little trust in the money system. But in the present and future financial system gold has little significance, except from a psychological point of view it is good to have a pile of gold in the central bank as reserve. In reality this means nothing.

    What made gold a good currency in the past was that it had some (intrinsic) value of its own and that the total supply was limited or at least did not rise very fast (mining). Because of that there was little inflation and people put trust in it. That is the only thing that keeps a currency floating: trust. But people have used all kind of things as money, as money is only a go-between, a lubricant for trade. The only thing that matters is that people feel confident enough that if they take it, they will be able to spend it. That is it.

    When Lincoln waged the civil war against the South, golden coins were still in use, and bankers would only loan him money at very high interest rates above 20%. Lincoln was furious and asked one of his staff to seek an alternative. This man came up with a simple idea: Lets issue our own money. Lincoln asked: Will people accept our paper money? And the man said: Simple, let people pay their tax with this money and they will accept it. This currency without any gold backing became the most successful currency the US has ever known, the Greenback.

    Gold is not a good currency for a modern economy in which trade goes in micro seconds and money transfers are no more than mutations in accounts. The problem with modern money is that governments and banks create more money than is healthy for the economy. The good and the bad thing is that you can create more money. This allows to boost the economy in times of depression and equal out population and production growth, but it also leads to inflation if overdone, making debts more attractive than savings. We now have created more debt in the world that we have money to pay them off. So we need new solutions.

    We would again like to have currencies that are more limited in supply like gold but still be as easily transferred like book money and not be controlled by one country like the dollar. And actually nature provides that but in a different roam, mathematics. It is called bitcoins. Bitcoins are like prime numbers, they can be mined by computers but it becomes increasingly harder as you progress and so the supply is practically limited. They build a genius system around them that allows to keep account who owns them that is completely decentralized and not controlled by any bank or government. It is a miracle and we not even know who created it. Though his name is Satoshi Nakamoto, no one knows who the person or persons is behind this name. But we can already see that these kind of systems are going to take over the role of traditional money. Last week IBM proposed technology that could control normal money in the same decentralized way. Banks will then no longer control the money the way they do today.

    The reason I mentioned money is simply because proselyting churches behave like other multinationals. Both the centralized Catholic church as the protestant churches who are more like franchise organizations. For in stance in my country there is a decreasing demand for their product, so they simply close down their shops, and move to countries were they can still make a good profit. Elder people do not understand why their god houses are closed, as they were built with money of the community, and the community paid large sums to the church during their existence. Now the assets are sold off and the proceeds pocketed by the church.

    [I am afraid I am guilty of liking Wendy´s books, I do not see original highly subjective perspectives as a danger]
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 22 March 2015 at 09:31 PM.

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