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Thread: Lord Shiva -Agni Deva Narrative?

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    Lord Shiva -Agni Deva Narrative?

    Namaste,

    Does any one know this narrative or where it occurs in the scriptures?

    The God of Fire,was set amidst the seas by The Mighty Lord
    (Note given:The God of fire,who at one time threatened to engulf the world,was contained in the northern seas.)

    (This above incident and the vanquishing of Agni Deva by the Lord,who appeared in the form of Yaksha [Kena Upanishad - Sama Veda]I suppose are two different narratives.)

  2. #2

    Re: Lord Shiva -Agni Deva Narrative?

    Namaste Ram11,

    I don't have any references but the Agni-Rudra rivalry, where Agni is said to have lost (in some transformative way), to me seems like a parallel to Ganesha-Shiva conflict. (Recently we had even conversation on other thread regarding Agni being the son of Devi iLA who I said I always regard as Kali.)

    I have many times on HDF voiced my opinion about Agni being the Vedic name of Ganesha (similar to as Rudra is the Vedic name of Shiva). As we know, Vedic and Puranic are two languages that talk about the same Hindu pantheon and spiritual legacy, but in different styles.

    Another point is, Ganesha seems to have lost out miserably to Shiva in the battle. But the truth is He came out even stronger after the transformation.

    As another example, Lord Indra assaulted (with vajra) Hanuman to prevent Him from running all over the realms. Hanuman fell down on earth - defeated. But only if you stop reading here. If you continue reading what happened afterwards, you come to knoe that Hanuman was not only saved but also came out stronger than ever (the mightiest God known) with granted resistance against even the brahmāshtra. Lord Indra - who takes blame always - also vindicated.

    Ganesha is the favourite of His father.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

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    Re: Lord Shiva -Agni Deva Narrative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste Ram11,

    I don't have any references but the Agni-Rudra rivalry, where Agni is said to have lost (in some transformative way), to me seems like a parallel to Ganesha-Shiva conflict. (Recently we had even conversation on other thread regarding Agni being the son of Devi iLA who I said I always regard as Kali.)

    I have many times on HDF voiced my opinion about Agni being the Vedic name of Ganesha (similar to as Rudra is the Vedic name of Shiva). As we know, Vedic and Puranic are two languages that talk about the same Hindu pantheon and spiritual legacy, but in different styles.

    Another point is, Ganesha seems to have lost out miserably to Shiva in the battle. But the truth is He came out even stronger after the transformation.
    Namaste Kalicharan Ji,

    This is a very interesting parallel who have made.Could you provide the posts you made on Agni Deva-Ganesha parallel?

    I am not sure whether there is a rivalry between Lord Shiva and Agni Deva,it is more likely that these narratives are attempts to establish superiority.

    Sometimes it may seem that the Puranas have newer material but if we can connect the dots major Puranic narratives are based on the Vedas.It requires deep scriptural knowledge/study to do this matching.

    (Sometimes the Puranic narratives are meant to explain concepts from the Vedas.Sri Bharati Tirtha Sankaracharyaji said in one of his discourses that in order to explain to common people the Sruti Vakya "Satyam Vada" Harishchandropakyana came into existence.)


    What is relationship between Sri Kali and Devi Uma(Daughter of Himavan)?I am asking this because if as you said Ganesha is Agni and Devi iLA is Kali,where does Devi Parvati fit in?

    I have read different narratives about Kali & Parvati relationship:

    1.Once Lord Shiva called Parvati as Kali and she transformed herself into Gauri Devi(the one of Gaura(Fair/Bright) Varna)

    2.I do not remember exactly but in the Devi Mahatmyam Kali is said to have emerged from Parvati.

    3.Kali emerged when Lord Shiva struck a lock of hair to the ground.(Immolation of Sati Devi-Daksha Prajapati account)

    4.Kali emerged from Lord Veerabhadra(same Puranic Daksha Yajna episode)

    What do you think is the relationship between Kali Devi,Uma Parvati Devi and Lord Shiva?
    Are they same Goddesses or different?(Who is Devi Kali's consort?)

    As another example, Lord Indra assaulted (with vajra) Hanuman to prevent Him from running all over the realms. Hanuman fell down on earth - defeated. But only if you stop reading here. If you continue reading what happened afterwards, you come to knoe that Hanuman was not only saved but also came out stronger than ever (the mightiest God known) with granted resistance against even the brahmāshtra. Lord Indra - who takes blame always - also vindicated.
    Yes,recently as I was going through the Valmiki Ramayana(Gita Press) I came across this incident.Hanuman was voluntarily bound by the Brahmastra for a little while though he was not really affected.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

  4. #4

    Re: Lord Shiva -Agni Deva Narrative?

    Namaste,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    This is a very interesting parallel who have made.Could you provide the posts you made on Agni Deva-Ganesha parallel?
    It is here and here.
    I am not sure whether there is a rivalry between Lord Shiva and Agni Deva,it is more likely that these narratives are attempts to establish superiority.
    Only the best of the gurus have the power to tell us their true significance. Of course it is anything but "establish superiority".
    Sometimes it may seem that the Puranas have newer material but if we can connect the dots major Puranic narratives are based on the Vedas.It requires deep scriptural knowledge/study to do this matching.
    This is an important realisation. When generalised, it is found that all purana-s, "big or small", "tamasic or satvic", "principal or subsidiary", are just doing that: re telling the Veda. Only, one must know how - in what manner- to read them.

    What is relationship between Sri Kali and Devi Uma(Daughter of Himavan)?I am asking this because if as you said Ganesha is Agni and Devi iLA is Kali,where does Devi Parvati fit in?
    They are separate and independent Devata-s. But we should remember that under circumstances (they are always very interesting and illuminating) any of the Devata-s can become the undertaker.

    I have read different narratives about Kali & Parvati relationship:

    1.Once Lord Shiva called Parvati as Kali and she transformed herself into Gauri Devi(the one of Gaura(Fair/Bright) Varna)

    2.I do not remember exactly but in the Devi Mahatmyam Kali is said to have emerged from Parvati.

    3.Kali emerged when Lord Shiva struck a lock of hair to the ground.(Immolation of Sati Devi-Daksha Prajapati account)

    4.Kali emerged from Lord Veerabhadra(same Puranic Daksha Yajna episode)
    They are all valid (and can be each studied at great lengths. And after doing that everything changes).
    What do you think is the relationship between Kali Devi,Uma Parvati Devi and Lord Shiva?Are they same Goddesses or different?(Who is Devi Kali's consort?)
    Different. dIfferent. diFFerent. diffErent. diffeRent. differEnt. differeNt. differenT.

    You can ask me thousands times the question, and the answer shall remain the same.
    Yes,recently as I was going through the Valmiki Ramayana(Gita Press) I came across this incident.Hanuman was voluntarily bound by the Brahmastra for a little while though he was not really affected.
    If Shiva does it to Ganesha it is superiority, but when Indra does it to Hanuman it is villainy, eh?
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

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    Re: Lord Shiva -Agni Deva Narrative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste,

    It is here and here.
    Namaste Kalicharan Ji,

    I asked this question before!

    There is a humorous saying in my native language,"by reading too much a person forgot what he read initially".Sorry.

    Only the best of the gurus have the power to tell us their true significance. Of course it is anything but "establish superiority".


    This is an important realisation. When generalised, it is found that all purana-s, "big or small", "tamasic or satvic", "principal or subsidiary", are just doing that: re telling the Veda. Only, one must know how - in what manner- to read them.
    I agree with all you said.

    But I do not believe in the Purana-Gunas theory.

    Lot of people here may be aware of a verse from a Vaishnava Purana that says that only Puranas glorifying Lord Vishnu are Sattvic and the rest are Rajasic/Tamasic.The Shaiva Puranas state that narratives glorifying Lord Shiva are Sattvic and the ones speaking of Paratvam of other deities are Rajasic & Tamasic in nature.

    Though there are many ways to resolve this contradiction I understood it through historical perspective.In the past all sectarian traditions were dependent on the royalty/public for existence and to survive they inserted verses of superiority.

    That is what I meant when I said earlier about "attempts to establish superiority",this was done neither by Maharshi Vyasa nor by other Pauranikas but by sectarian people.The recensions available with different Sampradays vary on these type of superiority issues.If there were transmission errors then only words would have been altered/corrupted but the fact that some verses are either absent or present in various versions shows that tampering took place due to sectarian followers meddling with the core texts.

    I don't worry which Puranas are Sattvic/Rajasic/Tamasic because it is an implanted concept.

    They are separate and independent Devata-s. But we should remember that under circumstances (they are always very interesting and illuminating) any of the Devata-s can become the undertaker.
    It is possible but I find it a bit difficult to grasp on a logical level.

    They are all valid (and can be each studied at great lengths. And after doing that everything changes).

    Yes,I hope to do so some time.



    Different. dIfferent. diFFerent. diffErent. diffeRent. differEnt. differeNt. differenT.
    You can ask me thousands times the question, and the answer shall remain the same.
    Okay.

    If Shiva does it to Ganesha it is superiority, but when Indra does it to Hanuman it is villainy, eh?
    Villainy?No,not all.

    When Hanuman was child he jumped into the sky to catch the Lord Sun as he understood that it is a fruit to eat. He reached the Sun. It was the day of Solar Eclipse and the Rahu came over to Sun. Hanuman ji had attacked on Rahu thinking that he is here to snatch the fruit. Rahu went to Indra and told about the incident. Indra came and saw that a monkey kid is going to eat Sun. He attacked with Vajra (the Hardest armament). Hanuman was hit and had fallen down on the earth. His father Vayu, became very angry and stopped the air in whole universe. This had led to a complete disaster. All Devas went to Lord Brahma and said that Vayu dev had stopped air in whole universe and everybody is dying without air. Lord Brahma got to know about all the incident and came near to Hanuman. He gave life to Hanuman. But to propitiate Vayu Dev he asked all Devas to give blessings to Hanuman. At this point Lord Brahma had given Hanuman the blessing to defy any Astra even Brahmastra.


    In this narrative Lord Indra sustained Dharma.

    I read a verse in which Lord Sri Rama was compared to Maghavan(maybe with a different interpretation) and I see no villainy if it is what I think it is.
    ________________________________________________

    Thanks Ji.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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