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Thread: Veda-Upanayana Samskara-Agamic Initiation?

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    Veda-Upanayana Samskara-Agamic Initiation?

    Namaste,

    I was going through some old posts.

    A west-born devotee said he was initiated into the Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya and was given the Yajnopavita(sacred thread).


    www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=5485&postcount=18

    I am assuming this initiation into Sri Vaishnavam is mantra diksha based on the Pancharatra Agama Shastra.

    It is accepted by all Hindus that in order to do Veda Adhyayana(study) Upanayana Samskara is compulsory.

    Western initiates of ISKCON are seen wearing a sacred thread.(Gaudiya Vaishnavam too follows a Pancharatra text)

    Similarly,I have seen that western monks/brahmacharins of Kauai Adheenam of Saiva Siddhanta also wear the Yajnopavita.

    But Yajnopavita dharana indicates Veda study.

    Sri Vaishnavam,ISCKON and Saiva Kauai Adheenam are not based on only Vedas(i.e. not 100% Srauta) but give very high importance to other texts.

    (I heard that internally the Gaudiya Vaishnavas consider Sri Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavata Purana to be as valid as the Veda i.e. Sruti status of being error free.)

    I have not heard of any Upanayana Samskara required to do Smriti/Agama study.(Smriti=Itihasas,Puranas etc.)
    (Some
    Sampradayas accept Agamas/Tantras as revealed Sruti)

    Each Veda takes many years to memorize,so are these initiates taking up traditional,systematic study of the Vedas?


    I am not well acquainted with the Agamas but I heard that the Agamas have Mantra deekshas which are open to all(males born in 4 Varnas+Women+all others).

    In my limited knowledge Upanayana Samskara is not required for getting initiation into the Vaishnava Ashtakshari Mantra,Shaiva Panchakshari Mantra or the Hare Krishna Mantra,am I right?

    So why was that person given the Yajnopavita
    ?

    What is the nature of Upanayana Samskara of these Sampradayas?Is it the same one with the Vedic Gayatri or an Agama based Upanayana meant to be a parallel to the Vedic one?

    Do the (Shaiva/Vaishnava)Agamas present some other variety of Upanayana with Agamic mantras before beginning study of Agamas?

    (Even if it is a ceremony involving Veda mantras I am not going into the validity of such Upanayana Samskara undergone by these initiates nor am I asking whether people who are not born into the traditional three varnas are eligible to undergo Vedic Upanayana Samskara as that is a totally different discussion)

    P.S.Another question:
    I would like to know if members here(excluding Dvijas for whom Veda study is compulsory),especially western bhaktas,who have taken various types of initiations have you also received the sacred thread?If yes,are you studying a particular whole Veda/Vedas apart from texts of your tradition?

    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: Veda-Upanayana Samskara-Agamic Initiation?

    Namaste Ram ji

    Without Upanayanam a person is not entitleded to say OM among many other things. "OM Namo Naaraayana" is Astaksharam that a Vaishnava is supposed to say. Hope you can get the link now.

    So If you have raised this question for the academic reasons, I have no detailed answer.

    As per Manu Neethi Upanayanam has certain rules and restriction (even according to parasara neethi) and in the later period it was declared all can undergo Upanayanam. I have also seen non Indians wearing sacred thread.

    From a birds view we understand that certain actions are allowed or prohibited by our shastras and everything boil down to Karma and it's fruits. In today's world we don't consider handicap by birth as a result of our accrued Karma. Do we?

    Every one is pursuing their spritual journey at different level using different modes. It is difficult to follow Shastras word by word because there are multiple interpretations and lack of practical applicability.

    How can a initiated person do Sandhya Vandanam every day without fail in the present lifestyle? And what's the effect of not doing it vis a vis not taking care of the other worldly duties that eat up the prescribed time of Sandhya Vandanam?

    Biggest challenge as I see it is the journey. How can one shed lust and greed when there is blatant display of wealth and sex right into the living room?

    I hope I didn't add confusion :-)
    Anirudh...

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    Re: Veda-Upanayana Samskara-Agamic Initiation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste Ram ji

    Without Upanayanam a person is not entitleded to say OM among many other things. "OM Namo Naaraayana" is Astaksharam that a Vaishnava is supposed to say. Hope you can get the link now.

    So If you have raised this question for the academic reasons, I have no detailed answer.
    Namaste Anirudh Ji,

    I understand that for Ashtakshari Diksha Upanayanam is required.
    Giving initiation with Pranava is a very high diksha as it a Vedic mantra,I did not know that all are given Pranava.

    I was curious to know the nature of this initiation for sort of academic reasons also.I will share something I read once in history books.

    At a point of time there were no Kshatriyas left in Southern India.There were only Brahmins and non-Brahmins.Some people from the fourth Varna having
    warrior-gunas took up arms against the barbaric foreign invaders and repelled the brutes.They filled the void and became quasi-Kshatriyas as they protected Dharma,Temples and provided for Brahmins.There are a number of inscriptions found in temples across Southern India in which these new rulers declare with pride that they defeated hordes of foreign looters and made generous daanas to Brahmanas for upholding Veda Dharma.

    Some time later,some of these quasi-Kshatriyas were elevated to Kshatriya Varna by Brahmanas by employing some rituals.(The Vedic rituals involved are very interesting but that is another long topic),while in some places they were granted an intermediate status as Sath-Sudras.
    So while some changed/shifted Varna(which is considered today by some people as impossible) and got Upanayana Samskara,others who remained in their own birth-Varna did not receive Yajnopavita.

    The quasi-Kshatriyas/Sath-Sudras rulers were scholars which is known from the available works written by them.So I assume that these people had Brahmin gurus who taught them Sanskrit,Shastra knowledge etc.

    The Agamas I heard are open to all so they might have studied Agamas,Itihasas,Puranas & Tantras but what is not clear to me is were they learning the Vedas or not.

    That is where the nature of Upanayana Samskara comes into picture,are the initiates who received Yajnopavita(mentioned in examples in OP)actually doing Veda Adhyayana or studying other scriptures?


    As per Manu Neethi Upanayanam has certain rules and restriction (even according to parasara neethi) and in the later period it was declared all can undergo Upanayanam.
    Never heard that,could you provide reference?
    Every one is pursuing their spritual journey at different level using different modes. It is difficult to follow Shastras word by word because there are multiple interpretations and lack of practical applicability.
    As you say,there are many paths and many many interpretations and I am confused at times as to what to accept.
    How can a initiated person do Sandhya Vandanam every day without fail in the present lifestyle? And what's the effect of not doing it vis a vis not taking care of the other worldly duties that eat up the prescribed time of Sandhya Vandanam?

    Biggest challenge as I see it is the journey. How can one shed lust and greed when there is blatant display of wealth and sex right into the living room?
    This a challenge as there is too much of sleaze around!!
    Last edited by Ram11; 22 January 2015 at 12:16 AM.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: Veda-Upanayana Samskara-Agamic Initiation?

    Namaste Raam ji

    I was given the example of Shree Vishwamitra maharishi and Shree Aitra maharishi in a religious gathering. Vishwamitra was a Kshatriya by birth and Aitra is a Shudra. Not just that Vidhur, the principal minister was a Dasi putra.
    Anirudh...

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