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Thread: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

  1. #31

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste,

    Someone brought up the subject about the beads. Is that really true, does one really get condemned for forgetting to bring beads to various ISKCON temples? Or was that a dramatization of a trivial event?

    When I plan a temple visit, I usually call them beforehand to ask about what they hold as proper temple etiquette for attending their temple (even though me visiting a temple is like a once in a blue moon occurrence).

  2. #32

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    ~~~~~
    Last edited by smaranam; 07 April 2015 at 11:16 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  3. #33

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste Avyaydya,

    I agree there could not be any broad brush applied to understand such issues in black and white.

    Therefore, though there is a concern about sectarianism that is genuine, but practically speaking sects are required, even desirable, to preserve diversity in society. And diversity belongs to more evolved mode of living, as we both would agree.

    For example, in my view it is not possible for even a polytheist like me to be worshipping both Shiva and Vishnu at the same time. I still need to go visit their temples in different areas. So the need for sects, sampradayas, is surely there on the modal level, if not on the temporal level (because a poly can be Shaivaite today and Vaisnava tomorrow).

    There is also something called "world movement" which though outwardly seen to be the body of Inertia, or Ignorance, may yet contain Intelligence of highest order within its essence. Even a temple is not an ordinary architecture - it is meant to be a practical Yantra that has the power to exert higher consciousness and the joy of life over even the lay passers by.

    Customs are the interface between Dharma and the region of its adaptation. Even within India though the Bharat tribe was the one to have discovered it, Dharma flowed to other parts and today we do see how it has adapted very well in innumerable diverse ways in all the expanse.

    On the other hand, a mere transfer of customs and symbols is surely meaningless. For example, the Nazi swastika seen as an import of Hindu swastika is meaningless.

    But then we should give at least some more due to an acharya (if he isn't an acharya I don't know who else is) like Prabhupada who knew well what he was doing. You may not see a lot of that insight in his writings, but there is a lot to be found and learned there into the practises he established.

    Pranam Smaranam ji,

    I don't say that Vaishnavism with a more Advaitic tinge is not there, or isn't right, but as a neutral observer in this regard I've found Vishnu worship in the main to be more along the lines Prabhupada understands it as. But I can be wrong.

    There is always some part of KrishNa that can never be absorbed or identified with: this is as far the approach can go. There is always some mystery about Sri Vishnu that remains till the end. Anyway, this is the impression I've got. If ISKCON wants to believe and commit to its own way that it thinks is right, and there is evidence for it in texts other than merely credibility of the acharya, we should respect that. Though you have also said the same thing.
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  4. #34
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    You can never be a direct associate of KRshNa because that will be apa-siddhAnta and mayavad. You are servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of servant of ............…..KRshNa!”
    One of the fundamental concepts of Hinduism is that you can assume any of the 9 bhavas or modes of worship with your personal deity, daasya bhaava being one of them. There are even modes of worship of personal deity such as friend, lover, etc. Why is ISKCON going against such fundamentals of Hinduism? I think the organization without its founder has lost its direction and purpose...
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste,

    If I find samosas to be too spicy for me, I switch to burfee. By finding faults with another Hindu organization, I am exposing myself to the same hypocrisy and ill-will that I am accusing that organization of. Why not just 'let them be' and go where I find my ego nurtured and and made to feel welcome/happy? Some of the devotees like to be driven by dictatorial 'senior devotees', either out of fear or for their own good, and in turn they behave badly towards new comers. Just ignore their 'holier than thou' behavior and stay focused on your own spiritual development instead of counting all the pimples on their unsightly faces.

    Pranam.

  6. #36

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    ~~~~~
    Last edited by smaranam; 17 February 2015 at 12:21 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  7. #37

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

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    Last edited by smaranam; 17 February 2015 at 12:20 AM.
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Dear Virajaji,

    Mode of worship is different from 'mode' of getting there - The DasAnuDasAnuDasa is where you start before establishing the "bhava" to the fullest. This is not ISKCON's btw and it is very much the Alwars spiritual life style and recommendation. Shri ThondarAdiPodi Alwar - the greatest example of DasaAnuDasAnuDasa - One who glorified the devotee of Lord as the highest noble path to reach Lord. Shri MaduraKavi Alwar - he only sung in praise of his master - Nammalvar and another DasAnu Dasa!

    Do not throw a judgement with either half information or partial understanding and how a devotee of Lord always inspires you and shows you only the right path.

    Hare Krshna

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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Dear Virajaji,

    Mode of worship is different from 'mode' of getting there - The DasAnuDasAnuDasa is where you start before establishing the "bhava" to the fullest. This is not ISKCON's btw and it is very much the Alwars spiritual life style and recommendation. Shri ThondarAdiPodi Alwar - the greatest example of DasaAnuDasAnuDasa - One who glorified the devotee of Lord as the highest noble path to reach Lord. Shri MaduraKavi Alwar - he only sung in praise of his master - Nammalvar and another DasAnu Dasa!

    Do not throw a judgement with either half information or partial understanding and how a devotee of Lord always inspires you and shows you only the right path.

    Hare Krshna
    Namaste Ji,

    1. I am not against DasanuDas bhava.

    2. What I said is that, while one may be a 'dasaanudaasa', that does not mean one cannot have his own 'personal' relationship with god if he so wishes.

    3. There may be countless devotees who had success with dasaanudaas bhava. But there are also another countless who have had success, without a guru (Nammazhwar) who took to some mode or bhava of bhakti to god (like Nammazhwar in his works, I believe, in 'Thiruvaimozhi' for instance, where he wears 'Sari' and praises god as his 'lover'). Also, how about Thirumalai Ananthaazhwan? He is known to be the reason an entire clan of people started addressing themselves as 'Madhurakavi Daasa'. He was such a foremost daasaanudaas for Srimad Ramanuja. Yet, he also did his own kainkaryam personally to Sri Thiruvenkatachalapathi. If doing personal seva to god is sought after, why should that be stopped?

    4. The above point, especially #s 1 and 2 are apparent from my previous response. I believe even a dumb person who has no spiritual training can be correct at times! It does not always take someone who is 'intelligent and extremely well-learnt' to think right!
    Last edited by Viraja; 16 February 2015 at 04:43 PM.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  10. #40
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Dear ji.,


    2. What I said is that, while one may be a 'dasaanudaasa', that does not mean one cannot have his own 'personal' relationship with god if he so wishes.


    DasAnuDasAnuDasa is not a Bhava - Its a process! You can never be Dasa to another one once Krshna and you are connected by this Bhava!

    3. There may be countless devotees who had success with dasaanudaas bhava. But there are also another countless who have had success, without a guru (Nammazhwar) who took to some mode or bhava of bhakti to god (like Nammazhwar in his works, I believe, in 'Thiruvaimozhi' for instance, where he wears 'Sari' and praises god as his 'lover'). Also, how about Thirumalai Ananthaazhwan? He is known to be the reason an entire clan of people started addressing themselves as 'Madhurakavi Daasa'. He was such a foremost daasaanudaas for Srimad Ramanuja. Yet, he also did his own kainkaryam personally to Sri Thiruvenkatachalapathi. If doing personal seva to god is sought after, why should that be stopped?

    You are asking interesting questions but i don't want to answer them . Just a caution... assuming the Nithya Sooris did not have Guru is ignorance and also does not encourage any personal promotion that you can attain any greatness by assuming their position. So, someone with out a Guru falls flat and get lost for lives.

    You are confusing and conflicting and i do not see a clear thought here. Personal seva is not done as per your whimsical wish - that or such seva is still done adhering to the Guru's teaching and training. Only someone with extra ordinary ego will assume they know something out of nowhere or from NONE but such people never done anything good to themselves. Vaishavas do not give any room for such conduct and it is very important to adhere to the DasaAnuDasAnuDasa process of learning - the system and path to reach the Lord and the Teacher in this ladder of Dasas is fortunately our beloved Shriman Narayana. Unfortunately He does not and did not give short cuts to anyone and made sure there is only one authentic learning process!


    4. The above point, especially #s 1 and 2 are apparent from my previous response. I believe even a dumb person who has no spiritual training can be correct at times! It does not always take someone who is 'intelligent and extremely well-learnt' to think right!

    Correct At time - This is out of how many millions of possibilities and why choose a life of negative probabilities? No one bets on total unknowns and an occasional correctness is in fact, NOT correct. Knowing the greats, respecting the stalwarts, following their foot steps sincerely are in fact not the idea of dumbs or idiots but in fact it is intelligents who with least ego understand and accept their inability and lack of knowledge that they have to gain by following such. I am a self proclaimed Lover of Lord does not have any success rather it makes you worst and it is better to remain dumb instead of seeking a false designation of Lover of Lord when someone have no such real interest. A dumb or idiot is still harmless to himself/herself until they start to believe they have attained something by a probability of being right out of infinite chances.

    If you look at the entire arguments, you should immediately see and recognize the EGO flowing all over that why should i be wrong and i should be recognized as right. This is not helpful or useful and instead of satisfying the EGO, do shift the focus and start to satisfy the soul and see if that has any quest and thirst for the Krhsna Prema.

    Hare Krshna

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