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Thread: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

  1. #1

    Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Dear friends,
    Hari Om,

    Please, do not consider my post as offensive. I'm just a student trying to get knowledge.

    From my actual stage of learning sanskrit and comparing translations, I've noticed some different perspectives in Prabhupada books and commentaries that takes ISKCON far away from the real text as it is (the texts are full of interpolations and extrapolations). Some shlokas translated by Prabhupada are completely different from their respective sanskrit correspondents, and the purports are very biased. Sometimes - that is to say, almost everytime, Prabhupada doesn't even give his considerations at the Purport, but at the translation itself, changing the meaning of the words, adding words and even phrases in the translation space, which for me is a aggression to the shastra.

    I have a lot of ISKCON friends and with respect try to talk with them, but unfortunately, they quote paramparā and Prabhupada in defense of the arguments. But I've seen that Prabhupada defending Prabhupada is kind of useless... I'm new to HDF, and my doubts became more intense when I saw that there is a forum for discussions about "God in Hindu Dharma" in the views of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism.. and Hare Krishna. That came to me kind of confirming my thoughts about ISKCON, that they have became kind of a sect that started differentiating from traditional Vaishnavism.

    I'm just a student, and humbly would like to ask you about this thought of mine.

    a) Is ISKCON considered a traditional Vaishnava group?
    b) The separation in HDF is due to what I was already thinking (ISKCON have different perspectives and non-traditional analysis of texts and became kind of a sect for itself, centered in Prabhupada)?
    c) What do you think about Prabhupada and his translations?

    Please, I humbly propose not to start a fight, since I believe that everybody that seeks for God, in any sect, system of philosophy or any other way is worthy of respect. I respect Swami Prabhupada, all ISKCON members and devotees, and acknowledge Prabhupada's value.

    But, since we are at the forum of the Vaishnava and not at the forum of the Hare Krishna, I'm proposing this topic to know your points of view.

    Please, accept my sincere pranam, beforehand apologizing if my words caused any harshness,
    R

  2. #2

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Pranams rteixeirapl,

    I don't think its an offensive question, but you may get a diverse response here, so you may not get a straight and conclusive answer. But I am not sure the heading of the post Vaishnavism Vs ISKCON is fully appropriate. There are four main Vaishnava Sampradaya's, each one has a different view and practice, it is not just Gaudia Vaishnavism that has its own flavour.

    Srila Prabhupada certainly is a controversial teacher in many ways, and some areas of his teachings have been debated , discussed and argued over for many years. I have seen most of them, and in my own assessment I just take what is good and the things I can apply to my own practice and leave the rest for others. Different people will take a certain % of what he wrote and taught while others will throw almost everything out completely, so all I am saying is if others comment I wouldn't expect a view where everyone agrees.

    Personally I have 1 foot in ISKCON and 1 foot out, I was initiated into ISKCON, still visit the temples where I have friends and still use Prabhupadas books for certain reference, but am also at the same time independent, so what I say only represents my own understanding and view.

    ISKCON is a design that was perhaps worked out and planned starting from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur to make the teachings of Gaudia Vaishnavism understood and able to be practiced around the world. By design I mean that the audience outside of India would be able to relate to it, and it worked, it is an international movement, and nobody from India has spread the teachings as far across the globe as Srila Prabhupada, weather it is a success is another matter completely.

    If we take Bhagavad Gita As It Is for example, many people think that he is saying that all other Bhagavad Gita are As It is Not, I consider this a wrong conclusion, but there is a certain defense of Sri Krsna as a transcendent Personality who is all Attractive and the Top Most form of Godhead and that the essence of Bhagavad Gita, while so many other approaches and systems of philosophy are included is that Bhakti Yoga is the the essential message of Bhagavad Gita. There are also issues still today about his original translation of Bhagavad Gita being changed by some of his disciples.


    While I was in India and especially South India, Vaishnavism is totally different, but I never saw the practice of Gaudia as something separate, only different. We have the same examples in some respect with many other traditions, the Kashmiri Shaivism and South Indian forms of Shaivism also are different, and both would assume that their practice is of a superior nature. So its not just ISKCON and Prabhupadas teachings that make the same claims, its included within the totality of diversity within Hinduism as a whole.

    I dont say this in a negative sense but I consider in the best possible way that ISKCON is not a religion as many other longer standing traditions of Hinduism are, its more of a cult, but that does not mean to say that its not a valid form of Vaishnavism, if there is Bhakti with sincerity and the lack of dogma and fanaticism thinking its the only true path of Vaishnavism then for me its a Bonafide process of self realization.

    ISKCON in many ways has become very institutionalized and has many issues, many of these issues have been handled with immaturity and sadly there has been a split and division with the larger Hindu family and within the institution itself, but there are also many devotees that do not carry such a bias, and one thing to consider is the Guru Disciple relationship, many are just being loyal to their Guru, and following His instructions, that's what any Shiksha should do, how they do it will vary according the maturity of their understanding.

    It maybe a long and worn debate, many just get on with it and practice as they see fit, when I read Bhagavad Gita now I will also see some other commentaries, and Srila Prabhupadas I still include, it only helps to broaden my view and understanding of such a great book. So my advice to myself is take on board what is favorable and leave sticky issues to one side as its never conclusive and each different sadhaka is on a different level.

    Srila Prabhupada was certainly a great person, I mean He traveled to the west at a very mature age, suffered two heart attacks, lived in the slums of New York where he arrived with only a few rupees and taught with love to the rejects of the society, from this he built up a worldwide movement and many devotees loved Him dearly, He worked non stop around the clock following the instructions of His Gurudeva, slept only 4 hours a day, was always available, had a great sense of Humour, stayed up all night and worked around the clock translating books and his works were truly selfless, but some pick on his faults, but that's life.

    Ys

    Md

  3. #3

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaskar, markandeya 108 dasa,

    Thank you for your reply and kindly exposition!

    Pranam,
    R

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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste,

    The above posts would sound better with the use of a couple of alternate words/phrases,

    1. Cult s/b replaced with 'school of thought', as cult is a closed group of people who don't interact with and don't let strangers into the group, unless you become a member.
    2. 'biased translations' s/b replaced with 'unique interpretation' of verses. Each guru/swami interprets the written word per his own realizations. So, in that sense, all translations are biased one way or the other.

    I am not an ardent follower/supporter of ISKCON, but this might be helpful in some ways,
    http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpos...2&postcount=33

    The bottom line is that if their brand of theology is not palatable, one should not dwell on what causes negativity to build up and should instead move on to what looks and feels genuine.

    Pranam.
    Last edited by Believer; 20 January 2015 at 12:08 AM.

  5. #5

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Pranams

    Srila Prabhupada himself said that he was establishing the Bhakti Cult many times.

    Caitanya-caritamrta Adi. 10.84: “Obeisances are therefore offered to the spiritual master as sarasvata-deva, or a member of the Sarasvata family (namas te sarasvate deve), whose mission is to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
    Ys

    Md
    Last edited by markandeya 108 dasa; 20 January 2015 at 07:39 AM.

  6. #6

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Pranams,

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but Gaudiya Vaishnavism isnt one of the four traditional sampradayas. Right? What is their affiliation?

    Hari Om,
    R

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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Srila Prabhupada himself said that he was establishing the Bhakti Cult many times.
    English is a second or a third language for Indians. Many times when they formulate their thoughts into English language, one needs a translator to get to the gist of their thoughts. It is along those lines that we should not and cannot cling to every word dropping out of their mouths. With their limited vocabulary and using Hinglish (Hindi+English) words limits them in their expressive mode. If a cult is defined as a closed group, no sane person will call ISKCON a cult or the Bhakti movement a cult. It means a way for spiritual ascent, a school of thought if you will. Anyone can walk into an ISKCON mandir and their books are available to all, as is their methodology to improve one's spiritual life. So, it is an entirely open system. There are no secrets. Hanging on to every word that Prabhupad said and taking literal meaning of it is a fallacy that we have to overcome.


    Pranam.

    PS, Apologies to the OP for the thread going sideways.
    Last edited by satay; 21 January 2015 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #8

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Pranams


    rteixeirapl Namaskar, markandeya 108 dasa,

    Thank you for your reply and kindly exposition!

    Pranam,
    R
    You are most welcome.


    rteixeirapl Pranams,

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but Gaudiya Vaishnavism isnt one of the four traditional sampradayas. Right? What is their affiliation?

    Hari Om,
    R
    This is quite a hot issue and I have seen a few debates about the validity of Gaudia from others point of view. It may need someone of more schorlay class to explain this in more depth, perhaps brahma jijnasa and anucarh Prabhu's may be able to explain the finer details better than me. Gaudia Vaishnavas in general claim their sampradya as Brahma Madhava Gaudia Sampradaya, but only recently last year I heard that Madhava Sampradaya has had some serious issues with ISKCON, when I was at Udupi before I felt very welcomed there, and met and shared Prasadam with the current Acharayas there, so I am not totally sure what has changed.

    One thing for sure is that within Srila Prabhupada teachings is that he did not deny the authority of the other 4 sampradayas, and in some ways the Siddhanta of Acintya Bed Abeda includes all the views of the other 4 sampradayas, and Sri Chaitanya MahaPrabhu was one who harmonized the teachings of the Vaishnava Sampradayas and also the teachings of Adi Shankara. Some even say that we are diametrically opposed to the views and Siddhanta of Adi Shankara, but I cannot agree this, there are many very subtle areas that are quite easily over looked because of literal understandings. And ISKCON has a famous reputation of stating they are the highest among everyone and Srila Prabhupada is the the main Acharya for this age, but not all are like this and this view is on the decline.

    In fact as of this moment I am listening and studying Sruti Gita, as spoken by a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, he is a South Indian Scholar and is fluent in Sanskrit, and as far as I am now its says that its unavoidble and imperative to know and realise advaita in the Gaudia approach, but we don't stop there, there is still more to learn, if we consider that Acintya is inconceivable, transcendent and beyond any explanation then advaita is included within the oneness, as with Dvaita and DvaitaAdvaita simultaneously. The more we advance in our progress the more things become more subtle and the divisions which may seem broad at the start begin to get slimmer and slimmer until they vanish.

    My own opinion is that if Srila Prabhupada taught the subtle forms of Siddhanta he would just confuse everyone, especially in the west where most of us have no background in such high topics of Veda and Vedanta, but his teachings remain a very important contribution because nobody is discluded, so for myself I dont see that Acharaya's always talk according to their own realization and more to the audience that he is talking with. A broad study of the all the schools has to come at some point, but Prabhupada didnt want people running here and there and gave them a direction, I firmly believe that everything is contained within Srila prabhupadas books, but he may not be everyone's type of teacher.

    Ys

    Md
    Last edited by satay; 21 January 2015 at 02:06 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Anyone can walk into an ISKCON mandir and their books are available to all, as is their methodology to improve one's spiritual life. So, it is an entirely open system.
    It is open only for the sake of preaching. Not really open for any KRshNa lover if they do not follow their ways completely.
    Last edited by smaranam; 03 February 2015 at 11:15 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste Smarnam,

    First of all I am sorry that you have had some negative experiences with some over-zealous ISKCON devotees.

    In a cult, you have to be tested to see if you can be trusted, then you have to be programmed in a certain way, you reach some milestones and become a member and only then you are given the secret code to associate with other members. In that respect ISKCON is not a cult. Everyone is welcome to come to the mandir as long as they follow their traditions. I am appalled at the fact that at the mandir that you go to, they expects people to eventually get initiated or get lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    I was in VRndAvan and decided to attend mangal arati one day. Then Tulasi Arati had tears in my eyes. After this everyone sat down to chant their usual rounds when I meditated on <Whoever and whatever I wanted to -- nobody's business> and was leaving, when a Mataji caught me and started arguing because I did not bring my beads to the temple. First I said "My beads are at home" She said "How could you forget beads !!??!!" Then I said "I don't necessarily chant the Hare KRshNa mahamantra on beads" She got angry "The Goswamis also chanted! Are you bigger than them ??!!"
    Excuse my for saying so but when you go to a mandir of a particular sampradaye, you have to follow their rules. An Arya Samaji cannot go to the ISKCON mandir and tell them that he believes in praying to the un-manifest God and not expect to be kicked out. Conversely, the bhajans sung in the Arya Samaj mandirs are not in praise of any deity and they frown upon anyone singing bhajans in praise of Ramji or Krishanji or Shivji, as it conflicts with their line of thinking. So, if I were to take part in a chanting session in an ISKCON mandir in which they chant the mahamantra on beads, I will have to conform to that code. OR go somewhere else.

    I am sorry to know that your experiences with them have been negative/confrontational, but you must exercise common sense and visit them only if you want to follow their traditions; else visit a generic, non-Westernized Hindu mandir where everything goes. Conducting Ram Bhakti in a Shiv mandir would be as inappropriate as non-mahamantra chanting in an ISKCON mandir. Why should anyone bend to my whims? If I visit your house, I would expect to behave within the guidelines that you have set forth for running your household. I cannot force my values on you. There has to be a balance between my desires and obligations. If I desire to visit you at your house, I am obligated to accept your house rules. I don't have to accept those rules as universal and agree to follow the same rules at my household though.

    Pranam.

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