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Thread: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

  1. #21
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Smaranam Ji!

    Sometimes what is given to you may not be just for you So, don't take my previous message as something directed to you personally.

    In Prema, there is everything and again there is nothing! Only very few can understand the sattvic meaning of the everything and nothing in prema. No one has the potential to plan for you or your spritual progress when we are utterly helpless by ourselves and the plan if at all there is one comes from Krshna Himself and we all agree. Giving you the practices or methods is just a vaishnava etiquette and you are not asked or even required to make someone your "Guru" just because they have given the instruction as what they follow. But, etiquette with good intend is something to be honored and respected without any grudge and i am very sure you are not someone to know or learn this from a stupid person like me.

    There is always a boundary where someone can operate or should not and i am not averse to a 'innocent love' preaching as long as it is not a dictation that i MUST follow. So, there is a small difference and i don't start blaming the great wisdom behind the group rather i will understand the limits of the preacher/follower and the 'innocence' behind their eagerness to uplift you.

    You are right. Krshna is THE SUN - everyone has access to Him in general and what Krshna cannot do?? Tell me. But, what is that we can do? Where is this actual "Surrender unto Him"? Those who knows Him do not know Him and those who does not know, Knows Him for sure.


    Suffocating siddhanta. Not sure how it is so... but the ultimate Prema Rasa reservoir strives all Her best to make sure everyone gets the nectar of Krshna Prema before Her. The queue here is not like your ration queue by any means and here it simply means, a Vaishnva follows the footsteps of Shri Prahalada and he desire Krshna prema for everyone first before his turn even if Krshna Himself gives one such opportunity to be in His fold. That is the "DasAnuDasAnu Dasa character and he always pleads, Krshna take every beings into your fold first before you worry about me or my upliftment as i am the lowest of the low.

    In Prema, there is no room for Jnana - Jnana once matured, there is no need of it as it would have already shown the path where Krshna reveal Himself. Once Krshna reveals Himself, there is nothing else to obtain. What does this sequence means? He has given the secret in Gita and also He has given the secret of Prema - Connect with Me with the intense desire to reach Me and don't worry about your strength of Jnana and such Jnana will come as a phala of intense devotion. At least, in the Bhakthi schools though Jnana is important, we are humble and modest enough to admit that we are not capable of understanding Krshna without the help of Krshna Himself! Also, we do not advocate or believe Krshna Prema can start with just "Prema" and "Prema" for most of us is not a tool to start with rather it is a gift of Lord once you surrender and submit yourself sincerely. There is no question of one sided love here and if there is Love, it is always mutual between you and Krshna! Bhakthas are even more humble and modest that we even declare our inability to have devotion unto Krshna as our biggest weakness and forget about being or becoming Jnanin. Of course, there are alternate opinions and also followers to them but i can assure you, those who 'develop' their love for Krshna gradually are much more successful than who believe in "auto" unlock of Prema in the heart by their self effort and desire alone.

    I am sorry and i am not qualified to question you or give you advice - after reading all your messages i know your heart and any responses in this thread is in no way meant for you!

    Hare Krshna!

  2. #22

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Of course, there are alternate opinions and also followers to them but i can assure you, those who 'develop' their love for Krshna gradually are much more successful than who believe in "auto" unlock of Prema in the heart by their self effort and desire alone.
    Hare KRshNa, Gramesji

    I do not want to write more on this thread but I hope you were not thinking I am suggesting the statement in blue? Of course it has to be 2 sided, and nothing nothing nothing can be from our side, it is all KRshNa's kRpA, wish, choice. The devotee just realizes that their relationship was eternal but they just woke up, while KRshNa always remembered.

    No one here is talking of auto-unlocking prema by self effort and desire. Oh no. It comes from KrshNa. KRshNa drives, always. I cannot write more that this in a post, but perhaps you've got mail

    O Lord, nothing is mine, everything is Yours. Your wish.

    What is funny is that you are the 2nd person who has perhaps thought I am suggesting something like that.


    _/\_
    Last edited by smaranam; 24 January 2015 at 11:36 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  3. #23
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    Once believer ji says, s/he is not officially connected to ISKCON and on another occasion, s/he says, 'I apologize on their behalf' Why? to apologize whom you are not adhering too and they are not in your control, nor do they do what you ask them to?
    I am part of all Hindu traditions/sampradayes and I am not officially affiliated with any one of them. As a Hindu I claim all of them to be part of my heritage. So if someone is hurt by ISKCON, I will apologize to him on their behalf as they are part of my heritage, my traditions, my existence. If a Hindu has been wronged by a Hindu institution, I find it cathartic to show my concern/respect/affection for that person. So, it is a mix of many things that brings me to offer apologies on behalf of those I don't control, am not fully committed to and don't fully agree with. Consoling someone who is hurting should never be constrained by our affiliations. It is a humane thing to do.

    Pranam.

    PS, BTW, right under my screen name Believer on my posts, it says, 'Older male native Hindu'. That means I am a HE.

  4. #24
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Pranams,

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,


    I am part of all Hindu traditions/sampradayes and I am not officially affiliated with any one of them. As a Hindu I claim all of them to be part of my heritage. So if someone is hurt by ISKCON, I will apologize to him on their behalf as they are part of my heritage, my traditions, my existence. If a Hindu has been wronged by a Hindu institution, I find it cathartic to show my concern/respect/affection for that person. So, it is a mix of many things that brings me to offer apologies on behalf of those I don't control, am not fully committed to and don't fully agree with. Consoling someone who is hurting should never be constrained by our affiliations. It is a humane thing to do.

    Pranam.

    PS, BTW, right under my screen name Believer on my posts, it says, 'Older male native Hindu'. That means I am a HE.
    Thank you Mr. Believer ji for clarification. It was dumb on my part to write s/he - take one from me 'apologies'.

    When you see someone doing wrong or something like that, Is this feeling 'sadness' or 'guiltiness' ?

    If I am sad, I wont apologize for the thing that I have not done, but I console the 'victim' (please don't take it harshly) and share with him/her what I believe is true.). Hence I gave my explanation of a 'Calf'

    Perhaps it's a matter of 'collective responsibility' and/or 'individual responsibility'.

    Anyways, as OP has asked, whats your experience about ISKCON?

    I like the quality of samosa, sweets and other products in general. I like their effort to protect cows. But, if someone preaches in the same way to a civilized person who is already rooted in Indian Tradition like a hippie, then ... it wont work - agree?

    We do not force anything one anyone. Thats why there are different kinds of fasting, one time eating, only on fruits and mink, only on water and then nir-jala, survive only on air (you can quit air ). Even while doing japa, we ask and advice others to start from a small time and then increase time duration gradually. All cant start their carrier with a century and then in each innings they hit a century

    or may me, it was force of love that smaraman ji failed to experience this 'lovely force' - I am the third one smaranam ji

    P.S. Today, I am in a lighter mood

    Hari OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  5. #25
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrut View Post
    When you see someone doing wrong or something like that, Is this feeling 'sadness' or 'guiltiness' ?
    When a Hindu heart is aching, give your over-analytical mind some rest and just do something positive. It could be showing sympathy, or offering an apology (even though you did no wrong) or saying something to console the person. There are moments for being analytical and logical and there are other moments when you react to a situation of sadness with something positive, without giving any thought to what you are doing. Hope that makes some sense, else come back in 10 years and reread this thread.

    Pranam.

  6. #26
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    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste,



    When a Hindu heart is aching, give your over-analytical mind some rest and just do something positive. It could be showing sympathy, or offering an apology (even though you did no wrong) or saying something to console the person. There are moments for being analytical and logical and there are other moments when you react to a situation of sadness with something positive, without giving any thought to what you are doing. Hope that makes some sense, else come back in 10 years and reread this thread.

    Pranam.
    Namaste Thank you
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  7. #27

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by rteixeirapl View Post
    Dear friends,
    Hari Om,

    Please, do not consider my post as offensive. I'm just a student trying to get knowledge.

    From my actual stage of learning sanskrit and comparing translations, I've noticed some different perspectives in Prabhupada books and commentaries that takes ISKCON far away from the real text as it is (the texts are full of interpolations and extrapolations). Some shlokas translated by Prabhupada are completely different from their respective sanskrit correspondents, and the purports are very biased. Sometimes - that is to say, almost everytime, Prabhupada doesn't even give his considerations at the Purport, but at the translation itself, changing the meaning of the words, adding words and even phrases in the translation space, which for me is a aggression to the shastra.
    Namaste,
    Prabhupada is an acharya of Vedic Dharma and his interpretations are therefore authoritative.
    Also, there is no such thing as "truthful translation", because every translation is an interpretation and vice versa.

    I have a lot of ISKCON friends and with respect try to talk with them, but unfortunately, they quote paramparā and Prabhupada in defense of the arguments. But I've seen that Prabhupada defending Prabhupada is kind of useless... I'm new to HDF, and my doubts became more intense when I saw that there is a forum for discussions about "God in Hindu Dharma" in the views of Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism.. and Hare Krishna. That came to me kind of confirming my thoughts about ISKCON, that they have became kind of a sect that started differentiating from traditional Vaishnavism.
    Yes their quote of paramparā and Prabhupada is a valid defence since Prabhupada is an accepted acharya. ISKCON is considered as yet separate from even the rest of Vaishnavism, and that is also okay because ISKCON, imo, is purported to be the implant of Dharma in the western world.

    I'm just a student, and humbly would like to ask you about this thought of mine.

    a) Is ISKCON considered a traditional Vaishnava group?
    After everything is said and done, Vaishnavism imho retains an edge in as being the leader in some sense of Hinduism as a whole in this yuga, and therefore Prabhupada's effort to bring Vaishnavism (and hence the whole of Hinduism following) to the west - a phenomenon otherwise known as ISKCON - is Dharma's very own effort for survival in these bleak times. I think ISKCON has at least to some extent succeeded in this; on the other hand at home in Bengal Dharma has met with ever increased decline and decimation - savants like Prabhupada were visionary enough to know all this decades ago. In the west, on the other hand, thanks largely to infrastructure of ISKCON, today we see that Hindus of all hue are now springing up as a follow - Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, Murugan bhaktas and counting.


    b) The separation in HDF is due to what I was already thinking (ISKCON have different perspectives and non-traditional analysis of texts and became kind of a sect for itself, centered in Prabhupada)?
    ISKCON is Vasinavaism adaption for the western, so if one is an Indian it is useless to follow ISKCON. But that is my opinion.

    c) What do you think about Prabhupada and his translations?
    I rate him higher than Vivekananda and Shankaracharya.

    Please, I humbly propose not to start a fight, since I believe that everybody that seeks for God, in any sect, system of philosophy or any other way is worthy of respect. I respect Swami Prabhupada, all ISKCON members and devotees, and acknowledge Prabhupada's value.
    That is cool.

    But, since we are at the forum of the Vaishnava and not at the forum of the Hare Krishna, I'm proposing this topic to know your points of view.

    Please, accept my sincere pranam, beforehand apologizing if my words caused any harshness,
    R
    All the sects and sampradayas of Hinduism are like living entities, and they are full of respect for each other. Outside this circle, there are death cults, but that is another discussion..


    P.S.: I am otherwise very critical of Prabhupada and ISKCON, and also the present forms Vasinavism has inherited (mainly in trying to carry more than it can lift).
    Things to remember:

    1. Life = yajña
    2. Depth of Āstika knowledge is directly proportional
    to the richness of Sanskrit it is written in
    3. Āstika = Bhārata ("east") / Ārya ("west")
    4. Varṇa = tripartite division of Vedic polity
    5. r = c. x²
    where,
    r = realisation
    constant c = intelligence
    variable x = bhakti

  8. #28

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste Kalicharan,

    Yes their quote of paramparā and Prabhupada is a valid defence since Prabhupada is an accepted acharya. ISKCON is considered as yet separate from even the rest of Vaishnavism, and that is also okay because ISKCON, imo, is purported to be the implant of Dharma in the western world.

    After everything is said and done, Vaishnavism imho retains an edge in as being the leader in some sense of Hinduism as a whole in this yuga, and therefore Prabhupada's effort to bring Vaishnavism (and hence the whole of Hinduism following) to the west - a phenomenon otherwise known as ISKCON - is Dharma's very own effort for survival in these bleak times. I think ISKCON has at least to some extent succeeded in this; on the other hand at home in Bengal Dharma has met with ever increased decline and decimation - savants like Prabhupada were visionary enough to know all this decades ago. In the west, on the other hand, thanks largely to infrastructure of ISKCON, today we see that Hindus of all hue are now springing up as a follow - Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, Murugan bhaktas and counting.

    ISKCON is Vasinavaism adaption for the western, so if one is an Indian it is useless to follow ISKCON. But that is my opinion.

    I rate him higher than Vivekananda and Shankaracharya.
    Namaste Kalicharan,

    Interesting viewpoints. I am a westener, and I must say I have never felt the attraction of Ishkon. In my perception they are positioned in the same religious segment where sects like Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Evangelist churches operate. For a time all these roamed our streets stopping people to bring them the light of their God. I have often wondered what the influence of sects like Ishkon is on larger society. They do their best to be very visible, and yes Ishkon certainly exploits the most and biggest Hindu temples whereas most traditional Hindu communities often seek refuge in back rooms. But at the same time by their sect-like nature they live on the fringe of society. They have a positive influence on their own people but those more or less live with their backs to society. They however give these people a more positive consciousness and that radiates to society.

    But I think great thinkers like Vivekananda, Yogananda, Gandhi, Maharishi Yogi, Osho, Rabindranath Tagore, Deepak Chopra, and others have had a huge impact on Western society. Why? Because they were a huge inspiration to western intellectuals and future leaders. Even if they do not openly speak about it, many were deeply inspired by their messages. This influence may not be recognizable as Hinduism, but it certainly became visible as Dharma in Western society. Dharma is the essence of religion, all the traditions, techniques, scriptures, customs etc are very descriptive for Indian culture but not for Dharma. And exporting Hindu temples is not the same as exporting Dharma.

    Cultures learn from each other, and there is a lot to learn from each other. But we have to allow others to take what they need and use it in a way that fits them best. If Hinduism can create an elevated Christianity, that may be a more effective way to improve Dharma than conversion to Hinduism. We should not react with, those Christians are stealing our Yoga techniques. Copying itself is the highest praise. After all, if consciousness rises all people benefit from that. We should rather take an example of the writers of the Vedas who chose to be nameless. The West has been moved by Hindu thought much longer than people think. In fact the colonization of India brought Hindu thought to the West once again since Roman times. And that had a profound influence in intellectual circles. They often did not openly admit that because the religious climate did not permit foreign ideas to spread in that way. But it happened.

    Today a more pressing question is what can India learn from the West. India finds it harder to pick up the technological revolution than countries like Japan, Korea, China, because this also means a social revolution. India has seen many social revolutions. Krishna and Buddha were important social reformers too. India because of its unique culture has to find a unique answer to integrate technology in the lives of people without disintegrating social structures and creating tremendous poverty. But India has some of the finest minds in the world and other Asian countries show that one can create original solutions very successfully.

    I am not a great fan of cults that promote Moksha as the ultimate goal in life for all people. I do not believe that is good for society. I do not believe that was the message or purpose of social reformers like Krishna and Buddha. They reformed religion to reform society, because religion had degenerated. As much as people try to maintain respect towards all traditions and cults, which is a duty in the line of Dharma, we should not turn a blind eye to the widespread corruption that exists as well. If India is so utterly corrupt today religion plays an important part in that. Because religion is the protector of Dharm. If religion leads people into outer display, ritualism or escapism in stead of upholding Dharm than society can only suffer.

    In fact the Mahabharata describes how a society becomes corrupt and how the priesthood living on the gifts of Kings choose side with corrupt leaders and Adharm. Teachings like this world is an illusion remind me very much of Christianys suffering is the path to heaven that long prevented people from fighting for a more righteous society. Such religion is an obstacle to Dharma. Meanwhile the elite live very happily in the greatest luxury seeking their heaven on earth. It is a minor solace that they burn in hell or be among the victims in next lives.

    India can learn something from the west too. People in the West fought very bravely to regain their humane rights with tremendous sacrifice. For though many Indians want to see all westerns as colonizers, in reality the westerners were only the first to be colonized by the same elite and living conditions were often far worse in the west than in the colonies. It was the enlightenment in the west that awakened the spirit for decolonization in the colonies. But where the west continued to free herself of rigid power structures many colonies fell back in local power structures that previously served western masters.

    A country like China that was never really colonized does much better. Though Marxism really uprooted their culture, by destroying old power structures it gave China enormous potential for change. And I predict that once they have established well-spread prosperity, old tradition will revive rapidly. People are always so afraid for losing their culture, but reality is that culture is virtually impossible to destroy. It is in the very genes of the people and it only changes in appearances.

    But there is also something very strange about culture. Cultural expressions like language or customs often survive with people who adopted it when the original people have long moved on. That goes for the Celtic culture. I goes for the Basks who preserve on old language from the Ural thousands of miles away. In South America there is a people who are the last carriers of the old Mayan culture but their ancestors are Arab migrants who adopted that culture. We really should not worry too much about keeping old cultural expressions alive, like Krishna we should worry more about creating a good future. Krishna is the maintainer of Dharma. We should not make the mistake of identifying Dharma with culture. The stories of the Ramayana and Mahabharata are easily understood by people of all cultures. A culture will survive in its form as long as it benefits its people, no longer.

    It is the mistake to want to keep culture alive by keeping its outer appearances alive. Then it becomes like a snake that refuses to shake off its skin. That is what the Mahabharata is about. A new generation seeks to renew the culture while an old generation decaying wants to hold on to power. Hindus should not be afraid. They rather should take an example of Japan and see how a very traditional society effortlessly combines the old with the new, because Japan not fears but embraces continuous outer change. It is no threat to their soul. That makes this culture indestructible.

    The best of Indian traditions creates very intelligent well educated people, but the worst of Indian social structures prevents them from using their abilities to the greatest benefit. Reform is badly needed. My feeling is that many people on this forum are living with their back to society too. Only wanting to talk about spiritual advancement but not about other advancement. And thinking that success depends on the number of Hindu temples. I think spiritual advances are better measured in social equality because that is where higher consciousness finds its most undeniable application. If a people are spiritually advanced it only is more tragic that they have to accept huge inequality. Huge inequality causes poverty even in the richest countries, because an economy can not sustain a high level on the needs or even extreme perversities of the rich who control the means. Hindu thought opened many western heart for a deeper warmth and care and they actually turned it in practice.

    I do not believe in religion for religions sake, or religion for Gods sake, or religion for personal sake only. If it can no longer bring Dharm to society it lost its power. Wanting to quit the game is for losers, the Devas will never quit the game, they enjoy it too much. When Dharm rules society people enjoy it too. There is a story that Buddha was on the verge of withdrawing from this world, but then he heard a child cry.
    Last edited by Avyaydya; 12 February 2015 at 11:05 PM.

  9. #29

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Namaste Smarnam,

    First of all I am sorry that you have had some negative experiences with some over-zealous ISKCON devotees.

    In a cult, you have to be tested to see if you can be trusted, then you have to be programmed in a certain way, you reach some milestones and become a member and only then you are given the secret code to associate with other members. In that respect ISKCON is not a cult. Everyone is welcome to come to the mandir as long as they follow their traditions. I am appalled at the fact that at the mandir that you go to, they expects people to eventually get initiated or get lost.



    Excuse my for saying so but when you go to a mandir of a particular sampradaye, you have to follow their rules. An Arya Samaji cannot go to the ISKCON mandir and tell them that he believes in praying to the un-manifest God and not expect to be kicked out. Conversely, the bhajans sung in the Arya Samaj mandirs are not in praise of any deity and they frown upon anyone singing bhajans in praise of Ramji or Krishanji or Shivji, as it conflicts with their line of thinking. So, if I were to take part in a chanting session in an ISKCON mandir in which they chant the mahamantra on beads, I will have to conform to that code. OR go somewhere else.

    I am sorry to know that your experiences with them have been negative/confrontational, but you must exercise common sense and visit them only if you want to follow their traditions; else visit a generic, non-Westernized Hindu mandir where everything goes. Conducting Ram Bhakti in a Shiv mandir would be as inappropriate as non-mahamantra chanting in an ISKCON mandir. Why should anyone bend to my whims? If I visit your house, I would expect to behave within the guidelines that you have set forth for running your household. I cannot force my values on you. There has to be a balance between my desires and obligations. If I desire to visit you at your house, I am obligated to accept your house rules. I don't have to accept those rules as universal and agree to follow the same rules at my household though.

    Pranam.
    That's all good, but ISKCON invites people off the street to visit their temples. I decided to go check them out and ended up getting scolded by some white guy for not using the beads they handed out properly. I just laughed at him and left.

  10. #30

    Re: Vaishnava vs(?) ISKCON?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalicharan Tuvij View Post
    Namaste,
    Prabhupada is an acharya of Vedic Dharma and his interpretations are therefore authoritative.
    Also, there is no such thing as "truthful translation", because every translation is an interpretation and vice versa.


    Yes their quote of paramparā and Prabhupada is a valid defence since Prabhupada is an accepted acharya. ISKCON is considered as yet separate from even the rest of Vaishnavism, and that is also okay because ISKCON, imo, is purported to be the implant of Dharma in the western world.


    After everything is said and done, Vaishnavism imho retains an edge in as being the leader in some sense of Hinduism as a whole in this yuga, and therefore Prabhupada's effort to bring Vaishnavism (and hence the whole of Hinduism following) to the west - a phenomenon otherwise known as ISKCON - is Dharma's very own effort for survival in these bleak times. I think ISKCON has at least to some extent succeeded in this; on the other hand at home in Bengal Dharma has met with ever increased decline and decimation - savants like Prabhupada were visionary enough to know all this decades ago. In the west, on the other hand, thanks largely to infrastructure of ISKCON, today we see that Hindus of all hue are now springing up as a follow - Hanuman, Kali, Shiva, Murugan bhaktas and counting.



    ISKCON is Vasinavaism adaption for the western, so if one is an Indian it is useless to follow ISKCON. But that is my opinion.


    I rate him higher than Vivekananda and Shankaracharya.


    That is cool.


    All the sects and sampradayas of Hinduism are like living entities, and they are full of respect for each other. Outside this circle, there are death cults, but that is another discussion..


    P.S.: I am otherwise very critical of Prabhupada and ISKCON, and also the present forms Vasinavism has inherited (mainly in trying to carry more than it can lift).
    Prabhupada isn't even accepted acarya in his own tradition. Ranked higher than Sankaracharya? Hmmm, no way.

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