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Thread: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

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    Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Namaste,

    In a book I'm reading there is the following statement:

    "....Knowing the purity of the soul He has come to reside there..."

    (He refers to God/Brahman)

    What is the meaning of 'He has come to reside there'?

    What is the soul/Atma/Jivatma?
    In which part of the body can it be found?

    Also,does it stay in a single place or does it traverse the whole body?
    How does it look like(size/shape/color/any description)?
    What is it composed of?(Panchamahabhutas?)
    Can it be seen/touched/felt or known?Did the great Rishis see/feel it?
    Is it the same thing as consciousness(cit) or mind?


    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

  2. #2

    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Pranams Ram Ji,

    What is the meaning of 'He has come to reside there'?
    It may depend on the context, in our normal conditioned state consciousness is residing in the factors of mind, intelligence, ego or the senses, that would be our normal function of where consciousness resides. So perhaps it just means abiding in itself without the influence/distraction of the other factors, Samadhi.

    What is the soul/Atma/Jivatma
    By literal definition it should be pure self.

    In which part of the body can it be found?
    Mundaka Upanishad (3.1.9): esho anur atma cetasa veditavya yasmin pranah pancadha samvivesha
    pranais cittamsattvam otam prajanam yasmin vishuddhe vibhavatyesha atma

    "The atomic soul can be perceived by perfect intelligence as floating in the five kinds of life airs (prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana). When the consciousness (that pervades from the soul through the entire body) is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material airs, its spiritual influence is exhibited."


    In Kesava Kasmiri's commentaries on Bhagavad Gita He often refers to the soul residing within the etheric heart.


    How does it look like(size/shape/color/any description)?
    It would not have any size, shape colour that we can describe as its beyond what we can describe in conventional terms.


    What is it composed of?(Panchamahabhutas?)
    Unadulterated uncompounded consciousness.


    Can it be seen/touched/felt or known?Did the great Rishis see/feel it?
    I would assume that it can be felt by experience, but the true experience is supra-mundane, so it would be a different feeling to anything we know with the cognitive senses, which include the mind.


    Is it the same thing as consciousness(cit) or mind?
    Good question and there maybe a variety of answers depending on how different traditions describe Cit, but mind I would say no.


    Ys


    Md

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    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Quote Originally Posted by markandeya 108 dasa View Post
    Pranams Ram Ji,

    It may depend on the context, in our normal conditioned state consciousness is residing in the factors of mind, intelligence, ego or the senses, that would be our normal function of where consciousness resides. So perhaps it just means abiding in itself without the influence/distraction of the other factors, Samadhi.
    Namaste Markandeya Dasaji,

    I'll reflect on the above words.

    Mano=mind
    /instinct,Buddhi=intelligence,ahamkara=ego,so consciousness=?(Chitta/Cit?)

    (Four Antahkaranas?)
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...59&postcount=7

    Mundaka Upanishad (3.1.9): esho anur atma cetasa veditavya yasmin pranah pancadha samvivesha
    pranais cittamsattvam otam prajanam yasmin vishuddhe vibhavatyesha atma

    "The atomic soul can be perceived by perfect intelligence as floating in the five kinds of life airs (prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana). When the consciousness (that pervades from the soul through the entire body) is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material airs, its spiritual influence is exhibited."
    Is atomic used to signify a subtle/incomprehensible nature or is a soul literally very small?
    I've heard about the 5 airs only in ritual context where they appear in some mantras.Could you provide any links on them?

    In Kesava Kasmiri's commentaries on Bhagavad Gita He often refers to the soul residing within the etheric heart.
    If the etheric heart does not exist physically,would it be present in any other places like in one of the Chakras?

    Unadulterated uncompounded consciousness.
    Could you elaborate?

    Good question and there maybe a variety of answers depending on how different traditions describe Cit, but mind I would say no.
    My knowledge is Cit is little.I made an assumption that Cit is consciousness/wisdom/pure mind.
    Can you explain what is Cit and what is consciousness,whether they are same or distinct and the relation between cit,consciousness and mind?

    Thanks Ji.
    He dances in the golden hall of Chidambaram, Let us worship His rosy anklet girt Feet.

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    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Namaste Ram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram11 View Post
    In a book I'm reading there is the following statement:
    "....Knowing the purity of the soul He has come to reside there..."
    (He refers to God/Brahman)

    What is the meaning of 'He has come to reside there'?
    The statement is figuratively used. God doesn't have to come from anywhere else to reside in soul. He is the Only reality and that is why He says in BG : "I am the "AtmA" in the hearts of all beings". The presence of desires/past impressions/AvidyA in pure consciousness (i.e. God) virtually creates two entities where there is only One. When the desires/fear/past impressions are dissolved, there is no artificial barrier hiding God/AtmA and He shines in His glory in the same place where a JivAtmA was perceived earlier.

    What is the soul/Atma/Jivatma?
    In which part of the body can it be found?

    Also,does it stay in a single place or does it traverse the whole body?
    How does it look like(size/shape/color/any description)?
    What is it composed of?(Panchamahabhutas?)
    Can it be seen/touched/felt or known?Did the great Rishis see/feel it?
    Is it the same thing as consciousness(cit) or mind?
    AtmA is the Only Reality which exits. The body parts and the universe are perceived due to power of projection that the Reality possesses. AtmA too is veiled by His own power of veiling the Reality. There is no place where It is not. In fact, any place/space is within It and not-vice-versa. It is Omnipresent and Infinite. It can be perceived by our senses and mind. It is what It is. It is not made of anything ... It is as It is by Itself. In spite of the fact that there is no duality, it shines in its own glory on Self-realisation ... the description of its perception cannot be described ... It is unspeakable ... there are no words, no metaphors to compare with what It is. On Self-realisation, this is what has been recorded by some exemplary saints :

    a) State of incomparable bliss
    b) Aware of Itself as the Only Reality ... i.e. perception of "I-I". The whole universe appears to melt into "I".
    c) Aware of complete freedom from all bondage/limitations.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #5

    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Pranams Ram Ji,

    The title heading is define Soul/Atma/Jivatma

    You have certainly chosen a very complex subject

    But it should be at the heart of self study

    So I am approaching the question based in the trying to understand the soul, to borrow a quote:

    No definitive mundane words can be used to actually explain jiva-tattva, because it is beyond siddhanta. In other words, the form of the soul is beyond our comprehension


    Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja


    So we sort of have a problem right from the start, we can only use concepts and terms, such as Atma, Jivatma Soul, Brahman, Consciousness, Awareness ect. So you have chosen a very difficult question.


    But we all have consciousness and in all of the Vedas consciousness is the true self, but consciousness is not always the true self, at this moment its in the state of the conventional self, or the created self, and in all my attempts to understand true self I cant get past acquiring knowledge into what is the conventional self and seeing understanding that as not self, or a temporary product of the true self. So its a study of the self to reach the self, if you may.



    Consciousness can be divided into different groups, the body has many different levels of the body within itself, these levels are dhatu's.



    11. seeing-consciousness-element ( cakṣu-vij�āna-dhatu)
    12. hearing-consciousness-element (sota-vij�āna-dhatu)
    13. smelling-consciousness-element (
    ghrāṇa-vij�āna-dhatu)
    14. tasting-consciousness-element (
    jihvā-vij�āna-dhatu)
    15. body-consciousness-element (kaya-vij�āna-dhatu)


    When any of the these senses are stimulated consciousness of their object arises.


    Then we have the subtle body (phew such a huge subject )


    Mano=mind/instinct,Buddhi=intelligence,ahamkara=ego,so consciousness=?(Chitta/Cit?)

    (Four Antahkaranas?


    All of these dhatus we cant see, we can only infer with self study, they are more subtle elements, more refined features of the dhatu's (body-bodies.) When we attempt to understand the more subtle elements there is in fact only one way, and that is via meditation or introspective contemplation. But then the question begs what is it that meditates, who contemplates, and so on.



    The we arrive at awareness itself, or chitta or Mind- subconscious mind( capitol M, as different from mind manas-mano)


    Chitta as you must know is explained in very broad way, in can range from memory-storehouse, to bright and luminous object, it is in my study the most subtle object that covers the true self, or one can say the first level of the created self, which we can infer through insight practices. Its where all the samsakaras and Vasana reside, and this is the root of what is needed to be purified to reach true self,atma, jivatma ect, but I am not sure how to explain what is atma.


    I stand to be corrected on this but we can only conceptualize the true self in terms of description such as Sat- existence Cit- Consciousness Ananda- Joy these are the basic descriptive factors of the true self.


    Is atomic used to signify a subtle/incomprehensible nature or is a soul literally very small?


    Yes, but small or large in some ways is not the right way to approach the size of the soul, one translation of Maya, (the illusion that obscures) is that which can be measured, so when the soul is in its pure state there are no ways to measure it, its transcendent and within the realms of different laws to measurement.



    If the etheric heart does not exist physically,would it be present in any other places like in one of the Chakras?


    The etheric heart which would include the chakras are still physical, but more subtle more refined, the pure self atma is the most subtle or the subtle, the most refined of the refined and not physical. We have the gross physical body and the subtle physical body, but because they are all matter or part of maya, illusory body, in different forms but are still considered physical as far as I am concerned.



    Most of us tend to make mistakes in general circles that we are having a spiritual experience, when in fact we are more than likely having an experience of the subtle body. We could argue that everything is spiritual and consciousness, which I accept, but we also need a definite understanding of the dhatu elements, everything only becomes spiritual when are senses which include the mind are more refined. To include the higher siddhantas to early will obscure insight.


    Quote:
    Unadulterated uncompounded consciousness.
    Could you elaborate?


    The elaboration is self explanatory, first we understand the nature of compounded phenomena, which includes the subtle body and understanding its nature and course and seeing it as not self or part of the conventional self, and true self is not of the same quality of compounded phenomena.

    Each element is a dhatu as far as I understand, and through investigation we understand the nature of the different levels of dhatu, and I cant see any other way than through mediation or deeper contemplation. Within deeper contemplation things then speak for them self, if observed correctly and objectively, the gross and subtle elements separate, non of them in and of them self are self aware, only chitta has the property of awareness.

    So then due investigation is what is the relation between Chitta and actual consciousness itself Atma, and how to get to that original state, and then what is the true nature of Cit, that my friend is the million dollar question We can only say Cit is knowing, true awareness, consciousness, but that consciousness is now filtered through the elements so we cant actually see it, but we kinda know its there inherently.

    The next million dollar question is how to activate true consciousness, this can only be done via an authorized sadhana practice.


    I hope this helps, but its such a vast subject that 1,2 or 1000 posts are not really enough, but thankfully there are ways to simplify it if we are simple but profound in heart.


    I hope this helps.

    Ys

    Md


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    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Namaste,

    According to Siva gItA and I think uttara gItA, the soul who is very tiny, spreads throughout the body via naDI-s. In SvetaSvatara Up. 5.9, it is figuratively defined as as small as 100th part of hair, indicating that it is very subtle. We do not take it literally.

    Most upanishads and gItA says soul is in heart, but some say, soul is in pineal gland, behind 3rd eye (AGYA chakra)

    Actually, the soul is consciousness and whatever you experience is due to the soul. In advaita, this soul / jIva is none other than brahman. This is known by direct experience. Whatever you experience is due to mind. Mind is jaDa (gross), as compared to jIva. So Brahman shines (empowers) mind and itself shines in it thereby producing delusion that it is mind that is consciousness. It is delusion that makes one experiences duality / multiplicity. Brahman entered into panch kosha-s and became many. This became is also figurative, not to be taken literally, from advaita POV.

    OM
    Only God Is Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion - Ramakrishna
    Total Surrender of Ego to SELF is Real Bhakti - Ramana Maharshi

    Silence is the study of the scruptures. Meditation is the continuous thinking of Brahman which is to be meditated upon. The complete negation of both by knowledge is the vision of truth – sadAcAra-14 of Adi SankarAcArya

    namah SivAya vishnurUpAya viShNave SivarUpiNe, MBh, vanaparva, 3.39.76

    Sanskrit Dict | MW Dict | Gita Super Site | Hindu Dharma

  7. #7

    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Pranams Ram Ji,

    I found this today and thought that it may fit in here.

    http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhsvs/pdf/viveka.pdf

    Ys

    Md

  8. #8

    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Namaste

    This thread might help some

    Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva and Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn

    Just a note: Read the first few posts and then post 17 onwards the thread takes an interesting turn.

    WARNING: Posts 14,15,16 may confuse you depending on your background so they should be skipped perhaps.

    Also, the thread starter may have grown since that thread was made, so take it only as a pointer.

    The purport of this whole exercise is -- that intense devotion and complete surrender by grace of BhagavAn can melt all logic. Love envoloped in the brightest light. This is AtmA-paramAtmA milan, they are not two. Why do they love each other so much? Because they are themselves!

    One does not arrive at this point -- the grace of paramAtmA brings it about. He is waiting, His grace is waiting. We surrender or let go, and the door opens - sometimes inch by inch like a shutter.

    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
    Last edited by smaranam; 27 January 2015 at 03:27 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Define Soul/Atma(/Jivatma?) and Where is it exactly found?

    Hi,

    Two schools of thought on this.

    Nyaya/Vaiseshikha - the self of each person is omnipresent. The individuality of each self is secured by associating this omnipresent self with an atomic manas/mind. Also, self is different from mind in all of Indian philosophy.

    Vedantin view - primarily based on Upanishad/sruthi pramana. The self is atomic in size.

    These are the only two views acceptable in Hindu philosophy. i.e. in all of Hindu philosophy, the self cannot be of intermediate (between either being atomic or being omnipresent) size. The reason is due to having to uphold the following syllogism.

    (P1)Whatever is of intermediate size is composed of parts. For instance, a brick wall is composed of bricks which are its parts.

    (P2)The self is not composed of parts.

    (C1)The self is NOT of intermediate size.

    (Premise (P2) is itself based on an underlying syllogism that holds that whatever is beginningless cannot be composed of parts)

    Interestingly, Jaina philosophy upholds that the self can vary in size. For instance, in Jain thought, the self an ant is smaller than that of an elephant.

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