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Thread: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

  1. #11
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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Namaste Saswathy ji

    The comment made by the flower seller got me to thinking. I had wished to raise this question in Vaishnava sub forum later posted here so that everyone can share their views.

    Rich and powerful people overlook this fact and wallow in self glory , pride , and prejudice which would lead them to bigger fall .
    Will you not agree with me that those fallen riches are replaced by another rich? If someone suffers / enjoys we are quick to reason it as Karma. But, what is this Karmic effect all about? How does it work? If suffering is a course correction, why should one help the sufferer? None (at least in this forum) has an answer to the simple question raised by poor roadside flower seller.
    Anirudh...

  2. #12
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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Namaste Grames ji
    If you know the answer, you won't ask the question and if you don't know the answer, there is no convincing answer. But, have you ever wondered...

    WHAT IF GOD HAS MADE EVERYTHING PERFECT HERE IN OUR LIVES? NO EVIL, NO DISAPPOINTMENT, NO JEALOUSY, NO FIGHTS, NO OLD AGE, NO DISEASE, NO DEATH....

    For some good reason, it is not done here - looks like the way how the live runs here looks planned the way how it is.

    Does it trigger any thoughts - let me know if you can find the answer for your question!
    Are we going to brush it off as Bhagwaan's Leela? And those who say so, have they ever lived the life of a poor who has no answers to the next meal, rent, clothes etc?

    My Guru said, surrender to the lotus feet of Shreeman Naaraayan. He shall protect the surrenderer. When Bhagwaan doesn't seem to protect / promote righteousness how can we ever believe / preach that Bhagwaan is synonymous to righteousness.

    I am not sure how many of us here would be interested to find the answer? But I shall not stop until I get find repeatable solution to the question raised by flower seller.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Dear friend ,

    There is no other answer except that we reap what we sow . Since God is impartial and kind , he or she or cosmic energy , or some enigma ,sees to it that justice is meted out impartially . When two children of the same parents have got different lives and disparities in lives even though same amount of love , concern and care are given on equal basis What logical explanation is given for the disparity except karmic effect .God is definitely kind , compassionate and impartial . Rich and powerful , deserve all the glory for the good deeds done by them . In the name of compassion , if any concession is given to the wrong doer , what type of justice prevails .Then again , it is to make the wrong doer to rectify his or her mistakes the punishment is given and not for vengence .In a school , a student who does some mischief is always punished or at least reprimanded . It definitely is not with malice .

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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Dear Anirudh.,

    Valid emotional outburst but do not forget to ask the questions i have raised. Nowhere it is advised that, as a fellow human you cannot set a standard and ethics that can provide a relative comfort!

    Only a spiritually elevated person can provide such comfort as he/she sees everyone as his/her own! With out that SamaDarshana, our emotional outburst is only expression of our love for the fellow beings suffering but not a solution! God has given the solution but unfortunately not a temporary one!

    Ask your Guru again whether God has promised He will protect in your terms and conditions!

    Hare Krshna!

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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Namaste Grames ji

    Definitely not on my terms and conditions but that question doesn't even arise. I am his creation. When there is no perfection in his creation why he expects me to be perfect? And when I trespass why HE troubles me after all I am his imperfect creation?

    My Guru instructed me to hold on to the lotus feet of Shreeman Naaraayan with complete faith that HE will protect me. He also instructed me to stay away from Adharmic qualities.

    Let me take few common Adharmic qualities like anger, lust, greed, and cheating. With no means to address the basic need how would it be possible to stay away from Adharm. If the STATE doesn't provide enough employment opportunities or implement law and order, naturally citizens are going to adopt illegal methods. Likewise, isn't it the responsibility of Bhagwaan to create conducive environment to practice righteousness?

    Going back to flower seller question, though she has been selling flowers to devotees and leading a simple life for the past six or seven years her quality of life hasn't changed a bit. I have also seen corrupt officials / politicians organizing events for the same temple.

    Now who is on wrong side? The official who is taking bribe or the one who doesn't have other options or the one who is allowing it to happen? Also answer my title question.
    Anirudh...

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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Namaste Anirudh ji,
    I said what I want to say, I don't have any further views in short I don't have answer of your question, hope you will get what you want and I will also like to hear answer of your question so looking forward to other members post....
    But I want to tell my view on this quote-
    "When there is no perfection in his creation why he expects me to be perfect? And when I trespass why HE troubles me after all I am his imperfect creation?"
    Gods creation is not imperfect at all, he make souls who are divine and perfect. Other things like prakriti (gunas) we can consider it as material creation...
    I want to give example of bird, bird raises his baby (bird) until he becomes mature, he gives him food and everything he want but at one moment bird left him alone and he has to live his life on his on risk, he choose what he wants to eat his mother not tell him what to eat at every moment.
    In this I want to suggest that what we are doing god is not responsible for that we are at full freedom to choose our nature gunas, does someone teach you to love and care for this poor? No its come naturally in you as this guna is chosen by you... Think if you are opposite of this and take bad gunas as like this officials, then you expect god to come and teach you lesson, but you have to paid for it as every action has equal and opposite reaction...
    God can't change neeyati (destiny) maybe he can but this neeyati is because of every individual persons karma if he change it then what will be the effect of karma..
    But god is seeing everything and every person will get perfect fruit according to his karma, and how can we measure that someone have good life or not. Flower seller have lack of money, basic necessities, respect.. But maybe she is getting the power and pleasure of love from her family, she can sleep nicely.
    But official who have much money, earn by bad means. It possible that he has lack of love from family that flower seller is getting, maybe he can't sleep in night.
    And if that flower seller have to give bribe because of bad circumstances and totally opposing her wish then it will not count as bad karma, don't complain to god just believe him you will get your answer.
    I know this is not what you are seeking for.
    But just tell my POV.
    Thank you and sorry,
    Pranam...
    Aasato ma sat gamay
    tamaso ma jotirgamay
    mrityorma amrutamgamay
    (Bring me from asat to sat, bring me from darkness (ignorance) to light (knowledge), bring me from death to immortality)
    Om Namah Shivay
    Om Vishnave Namah

  7. #17
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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    Namaste Soul of light,

    Thank you for sharing your POV.

    I raised this question because I couldn't answer the flower seller and also myself. At one end, scriptures say without God not even a tiny spec can move. And from the other end we blame ourselves for the plight we undergo. How can both the statement be true.

    We are surrounded by EVIL and negativity. Naturally it rubs onto us.

    I am into Sri Vaishnavism a school of Sanaatana Dharma propagated by Shree Ramanuja Achaarya. Legends says Great Achaaryas like him and Saints of different vedantic school had the privilege to see God. But while preaching and uplifting the masses, even they seemed to have undergone the tyranny of EVIL people. We can find solace but that's not the answer I am seeking.

    What's the motivation one get to hold on to a righteous ideology when its rules are difficult to comprehend or apply in all circumstances.

    Today we see adult stars appearing in the living room thanks to TV commercials. Does it stop there? After the commercials we also get to see how girls were brutally raped. Same is the case of excessive violence. Watch cartoon network (TV Channel), you will find even toddlers aren't spared. Even in HDF we fight on the supremacy of our beloved deities.

    More I read scriptures more it confuses me. I don't think life is meant to blame ourselves continuously but to enjoy the bliss of life. If so what's the role of God?

    I guess it's time to read more to find my answers...
    Anirudh...

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    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    namaste Ani,

    Thank you for the interesting question. Let me take a stab at it.

    The question you ask is similar to asking if the akasha is for the rich or powerful or dead or sages alone or if air is for the rich and living only.

    God is there for everyone just like the akasha is and the air is. It is irrelevant if one acknowledges its(his) presence or not.

    The beggar (aren't we all?) is taking the most practical approach and worried about her immediate needs. Who can blame her? She reminds me of a punjabi saying that losely translates as follows: a fist (of someone trying to hit you) is closer than God.!

    God never said don't take care of your needs. Yet knowing the difference between the physical need and acknowledging this akasha and the air and God are not mutually exclusive so not sure why the beggar thinks that it is.

    If I were to have a chat with this person, I would tell her to not focus on God, there is no need for a focus. He works in the background, he is just there, witnessing. So go on taking care of your physical immediate needs but just do one thing. Just become aware. No need to pay homage. No need to acknowledge, no need to offer flowers, or food or water. None of that is needed. Just awareness. Like all of a sudden stopping from mindless chatter and paying attention to the breath for a millisecond.

    Just that...is enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste

    I had been reading posts that discuss love for deities. Beggar near the temple or people undergoing hardship can't understand or wont appreciate love for deities. For a beggar food shelter and hide are precious than love for God.
    So is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead or sages alone? Surrendering without expectation is ascetic, isn't it?

    ** It doesn't matter how one become rich or powerful.

    ## This question was asked by a poor person near the temple I visit regularly. I had no answer....
    satay

  9. #19

    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    One day Bhagvan will make way for a no-bribe living.

    Namaste

    This post is for those who read with an open mind. I like Satay ji's post. Everyone on the thread has given valuable input, one just has to see it, be open to it.
    • “Not a blade of grass can move without His will.” What this means that He is the power behind the jaDa (here, grass – chlorophyll and all). Unless He sanctions any phenomenon it cannot happen. Wind blows, sun shines, rain falls all by His sanction. You think , he runs she skips by His sanction.
    • Parameshwar-paramAtmA gives you the freedom to make a choice at each moment. Assuming you are not turning to Him for guidance, He will provide you with the “equipment” and simply watch (witness)
    Therefore, our actions are our choice, and can be good/wise or bad/unwise. Behind the action is desire (vAsanA) hence vAsanA shape thoughts, actions (manifestation of desire) and that shapes the sharIra / deha (material body). This is the karma owing to vAsanA shaping the future. ParamAtmA is not supplying the vAsanA or motive. He is only supplying the equipment, the means. The choice is yours. Even in the Gita KRshNa says ultimately, to Arjun : I have told you this secret (kind of given you the key). Now do as you wish. (BG 18.63)

    BG 5.15 nAdatte kasyachitpApam na ca eva sukrutam vibhuh:
    adnyAnenAvrutam dnyAnam tena muhyanti jantavah: ||
    KRshNa says – I, the all-pevading paramAtmA, vibhu, do not take on karma of beings, their pApam and sukrutam i.e. puNyam (sins or results of their good deeds) – implying – the beings have to bear the papa-punya consequences of their actions because they are entangled in material nature. I am untouched.

    He lets beings walk the course of their karma – this is how the beings evolve and become purer, reach higher consciousness. On the other hand, He is Hari, and burns karma of those who turn to Him, take His shelter. He polishes them.
    • If there is evil and bhrashTAchAr (corruption) in surroundings we are expected to be the kamal patra – Lotus Leaf that lives in mud but remains beautiful and untouched by the mud and water. It doesn’t even get wet.
    • What is the motivation for righteousness? At the nishkAm stage, the motivation for righteousness is the righteousness itself. The pAvitrya (purity) of righteousness should be the motivation. Because righteousness is BhagavAn, Parameshwar. Parameshwar is Love, Righteousness, Strength, Purity, Auspiciousness, Renunciation, Beauty, Valour, MrudutA (softness), Gentleness, …
    I know you are concerned about the corrupt system in India in kali yug, but that is no excuse. I have known many righteous people (some very closely) who were always righteous despite the bhrashTAchAr around. They stood up to and for their firm principles and they succeeded. Some were entrepreneurs but had no political power. They were willing to forgo many chances of “worldly success” for the sake of their principles. These were the role models of some others and so on. These people do not feel that righteousness is a challenge.
    • I have this AsthA, shraddhA (faith, trust) that many people have the spark of compassion to help the world in some way. Little drops go to make an ocean. When these drops come together in small groups they make wonders happen. It may not be the ocean, but the little drops may make regional ponds, lakes and rivers. They make mountains move. We must see ParamAtmA’s Hand in this – wherever work is being done to nourish the body but more -- to uplift the soul by spiritual education --
    n Uplift poor, electricity in villages, free med check-ups,
    n Help provided to Tsunami victims
    n Citizens supporting orphanages
    n Protecting cows
    n Supporting medical research labs for premature babies, cancer, MS…
    n Eye sight for poor
    n But most of all, feeding the soul while feeding the bodies, such as Harinam education (e.g. ISKCON Food For Life)
    n Organizations like AsthA, sneha , AshA Foundation…
    * The leading saints of Bharat reaching masses of populations -- thru Bhagvat pravachan, bringing spiritual awareness
    * Gaay Ganga Gauri projects (protect the cow, keep rivers and environment clean, protect the girl child)
    * Art of Living helping to make the world better
    * Spiritual leaders working with political leaders
    * Simple sharing of bhajans
    All these are the hand of paramAtmA weaving and knitting the quilt of Love.

    How can we say that such a benevolent sweet compassionate and gentle paramAtmA is turning His back to the world?
    ParamAtmA is the Mother! He loves His creation. He looks over it. His time frame is too eternally large for you to realize. Therefore we look at this short window of time and throw up our hands saying “He is not doing anything”
    • Regarding poverty or tough life situations and spirituality – it is all about sharaNAgatI – complete surrender and dependence on Parameshwar. This is what many many saints and param bhaktas did – many lived in dire poverty. They went thru’ the life tests.
    n Tukaram’s family barely had enough for the next meal thanks to his compassionate free give-aways from the store (hence the term "tukArAmI vyApAr"). When Shivaji Maharaj sent rich gifts in appreciation, he sent them back much to his wife's dismay. "We don't need this wealth. Pandurang takes care of us"

    n Vallabhacharya’s family starved one day because there was nothing in the house that could be offered to KRshNa.
    n The vegetable vendor Shridhar was very poor. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (GaurAnga) tested his faith – every day He would ask Shridhar to give him vegetables for free. Shridhar did that for years. When he was ill, and Mahaprabhu was leaving town for sannyas, He revealed the svarUpa (his real nature) to this person (who was supposedly Vidur from dvapar yug).

    n Even today we experience His hand – if you did not have a pay-check for 3 months, the check you had sent to help poor sadhus / the victims of a natural disaster was returned for some silly reason “our bank does not like this format” What is this? This is Bhagvan’s way of taking care of you “Not now. Fasten your own seat belt, wear your own oxygen mask first. When you are stronger I shall accept your check”
    • I would tell the flower vendor to keep her faith in the Lord and strengthen it. Devotees look at tough times and hardships as opportunities to strengthen faith and surrender more and more. Sing to Him, talk to Him (or Her whatever her faith is). Who is stopping her from devoting her heart to ParamAtmA? Doesn't KRshNa say -- teshAm satata yuktAnAm bhajatAm preeti pUrvakam dadAmi buddhi yogam tam ... (BG 10.10,11).... and 'ananyaschintayanto mam ye janah paryupAsate teshAm nityabhiyuktAnAm yoga-kshema vahAmyaham (BG 9.22) . Try leaving both yoga and kshema to Him. The fact that she is continuing means He is there. Does she have the option and courage to move to another place? Or refuse to give bribe? One day Bhagvan will make way for a no-bribe living.
    • Finally I would recommend reading the section of Shrimad BhAgvat that describes / predicts the upcoming Kali Yug at dvApar-sandhyA (end of dvApar yug – era). SB 12.2 (canto 12 chap 2)
    • What are we to do? Do what we can to help in any small way when possible. Not just the body but also the soul within. Fasten our own seatbelts – how? Stay free of the 6 vices and asUyA. Be anasUya. Do not compare, have faith that everything fits ultimately in Parameshwar’s jig-saw puzzle.
    vAsanAdvAsudevasya vAsitam bhuvanatrayam |

    sarva bhUta nivAsosi vAsudeva namostute ||


    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
    Last edited by smaranam; 14 March 2015 at 07:02 AM. Reason: One day Bhagvan will make way for a no-bribe living; BG 9.22
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  10. #20

    Re: is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead alone?

    God is a inner feeling. Every body has soul, If you love human or animals , you are loving to god. Some one has good soul and some one has bad soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anirudh View Post
    Namaste

    I had been reading posts that discuss love for deities. Beggar near the temple or people undergoing hardship can't understand or wont appreciate love for deities. For a beggar food shelter and hide are precious than love for God.
    So is God for the rich* or powerful* or both or dead or sages alone? Surrendering without expectation is ascetic, isn't it?

    ** It doesn't matter how one become rich or powerful.

    ## This question was asked by a poor person near the temple I visit regularly. I had no answer....

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