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Thread: Bhakti worship is not right for me

  1. #1

    Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste to all,

    I went to Radha Madhav Dham Temple in southwest Austin last week and spoke with a "preacher" (that's what they call them at the temple). I have some suspicions about the westernizing influences in this particular temple and ashrama.

    Jagadguru Shree Kripalu Ji Maharaj was the founder (deceased now) of the ashrama I just mentioned. If you have any information about this particular ashrama, please do so.

    A few red flags came up in the discussion with this preacher, as they are called there.

    One was the idea that advaita, the one and the same, is not really valid, that dvaita is the way to go because of the time and circumstances we are in, in other words Bhakti, or worship of a deity is the preferred (really, "ONLY") path to god realization. I was surprised to read in the preface of this book I was loaned, "Philosophy of Divine Love," by the said founder, which stated, "Responding to the need of souls the world over, Sri Maharajaji sent out his preachers to expound and illumine the only path to God realization in the present workaday world: the path of devotion. The result was a tremendous demand for a translation of his 'Prema Rasa Siddhanta' in English."

    Two was the claim by the preacher that the idea that god and I are one and the same is a "dangerous idea" that could lead to a confused death and a rebirth into a life that I didn't intend to go to, like regressing instead of progressing in that move towards eventual moksha.

    Three was the claim that reading the Vedas, the Gita, and other scriptures and literary works and practicing one of the yogas best suited to me was not necessary and would only lead to getting lost and being confused.

    The URL locations of this temple are:

    http://radhamadhavdham.org/
    https://www.facebook.com/RadhaMadhavDham

    Four was the claim that the path of service is not necessarily valid or even necessary for anyone (she cited the example of Mother Teresa's loss of faith), stating that if you serve without the spark of passion inside, then it becomes meaningless. The point of emptiness, I get, but not that the path of Seva is not valid or necessary at all...

    She said simply that what really matters is that if you feel the spark of love for god within, then you should focus on that, and if you don't feel it, let that be the final goal to work on now in this life. Let the world go, just try to be a good person to yourself and everyone else, and honor that connection with God.

    Something tells me to tentatively look at the book to learn how they think in order to have this to contrast with another line of thought, and keep looking for another place. It feels like to me, jñana yoga is what calls out to me. Why would she say the things she said as advice for me in my journey in Dharma?

    Dhanyavaad.

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Vannakkam: We're vast. Many temples, especially of the South India variety, don't even have 'preachers' as you call it. (Pundit would be the Hindu term.)

    I'm sorry that your first experience was so negative, hopefully the next ones will be more conducive to your expectations. Best wishes.

    I would have disagreed with all of what the person said, as well.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste,

    A temple visit is what we make it to be.

    My interpretation - Whereas it is true that Shree Kripaluji Maharaj founded the movement, his Western devotees seem to have taken over the North American mandirs and taken some liberties with his path.

    In Sanatan Dharma there are several paths and if one sampradaye follows one path which conflicts with my line of thinking, I don't declare them to be false/incompetent/suspicious. Rather, I tend to move on to the mandir/sampradaye/sect which follows the line of thinking that I feel comfortable with. For the Divine Love sampradaye of Kripaluji Maharaj who practice Bhakti yoga, a 'gyan yoga' type of mandir would raise red flags. So, no one wins by putting labels on the sects of Hinduism that we don't agree with. I would be thankful to a temple preacher/rep if they took the time to talk to me in that detail. Many things said have a sub-text which is not readily evident and may become obvious when we familiarize ourselves with and follow that particular path.

    Here is their mandir in Vrindavan, India,

    http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpos...8&postcount=46

    Pranam.

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste deafAncient ji,

    > If you have any information about this particular ashrama, please do so.

    They see themselves as one of the many non-ISKCON branches of the gauḍīya vaiṣṇava sampradāya* (tradition), according to what I've read, a bhakti tradition centered on the teachings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu (16th century). However, the philosophy taught by Śrī Caitanya's disciples was actually acintya-bhedābheda (Inconceivable Difference in Non-difference) vedānta, technically speaking, instead of dvaita (dualism), even though Śrī Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa (18th century) would later incorporate more dvaita elements into the teaching, under the guidance of the Lord, according to the tradition.

    I hope that this is helpful.

    praṇām


    *The gauḍīya vaiṣṇava sampradāya sees itself as an offshoot of the brahmā vaiṣṇava sampradāya of Śrī Madhvācārya (13th century), who did teach dvaita.
    Last edited by anucarh; 18 February 2015 at 03:19 PM. Reason: to add "The"
    śrīmate nārāyaṇāya namaḥ

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Deleted
    Last edited by LightofOm; 26 June 2015 at 12:11 AM.
    ॐ मृत्युंजयाय रुद्राय नीलकण्ठाय शम्भवे l
    अमृतेशाय शर्वाय महादेवाय ते नम: ll

    Sanātana Dharma Worldwide

  6. #6

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that worship is not right for me. I ought to have expanded the title of the topic to include ANY kind of deity worship. I simply won't do it. This is really hard for me, because I feel like there is no one else like me, someone who understands the world the way I do. It gets really discouraging at times.

    I guess this is a case of having to create my own sampradaya?? My own path? I have been on my own path my whole life.

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste,

    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that worship is not right for me. I ought to have expanded the title of the topic to include ANY kind of deity worship. I simply won't do it.
    No worries, try to find out if there is a Arya Samaj mandir in your area. They believe in Vedas, but they don't do any deity worship. That might suit your disposition better. Their puja consists of chanting of Vedic mantras, singing some (non-deity related) devotional bhajans - even some filmy secular songs -followed by a lecture. Alternately, Rama Krishna Mission might be worth a try. It is all a philosophical lecture, maybe combined with some meditation. Anyway, good luck and best wishes.

    Pranam.

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that worship is not right for me. I ought to have expanded the title of the topic to include ANY kind of deity worship. I simply won't do it. This is really hard for me, because I feel like there is no one else like me, someone who understands the world the way I do. It gets really discouraging at times.

    I guess this is a case of having to create my own sampradaya?? My own path? I have been on my own path my whole life.
    Namaskar,

    Ah I see what you're saying. Well I'm sure there is something out there for you. If I may ask, what is it about deity worship that turns you off? As for me, I see the gods and goddesses as reflections of my own inner nature. Each one has a unique energy and set of characteristics to focus on, all of which are simply aspects of consciousness itself. In my opinion, when you look at it from this view (an advaitic view), then everything harmonizes. There is no "father in the sky" looking down from above and judging us. God is within. The energy of God is inherent in us; it is our original nature. When you know that the deities are just points of concentration to help you realize your true inner self then it doesn't seem so bad anymore. At least for me it didn't. What are your thoughts?

    Pranam.

    ॐ नमः शिवाय,
    LightofOm
    ॐ मृत्युंजयाय रुद्राय नीलकण्ठाय शम्भवे l
    अमृतेशाय शर्वाय महादेवाय ते नम: ll

    Sanātana Dharma Worldwide

  9. #9

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste to both of you,

    I've had to edit this post several times to sort my thinking out.

    My objection to worship is several things. One, as I mentioned before, I can't feel the difference between worshiping in SD or in an Abrahamic religion. Two, the idea of worshiping something that I don't see in the physical world (the physical world CAN include the attributes of ourselves in how we think and our actions towards others) is foreign to me. I have never understood it, because I believe that the world runs autonomously (and was designed to run autonomously with no signs of the creator evident to those of us in this reality of life). Another part about #2 is that it feels like I'm worshiping myself. Why do I need to do that??

    I will say that my view of worship is shaped by my encounters with aggressive proselytisers' ideas about worship within the Abrahamic framework, which is like this:
    • The religion is prophetic.
    • God has to intervene and pass the knowledge to the people, otherwise humans are not capable of bridging the gap between oneself and god.
    • The god and other players in the Biblical story (Satay, I'm sticking to the rule as best as I can) are external to ourselves, in other words, the dvaita approach.
    • This is a top-down structure with frozen shruti rolled into smriti, resulting in a text that doesn't adapt well, giving rise to the "I'm spiritual, but not religious" cries being heard all over the Anglo world.
    Now, it looks like what you are saying, LightofOm, is that the deities really are just iconographic concepts of the various aspects of ourselves, that manifest in our thoughts, our words, and our actions... See? Let me try again here...

    It looks like what you are saying, LightofOm, is that when one worships, say, Ganesha or Vishnu, one is not worshiping a standalone entity, an individual with powers to talk to us in the language we can understand that exists in a different plane of existence, like spiritual...

    Facepalm (doing this to show you the struggle for words)... A Sanaatani is not necessarily worshiping something external to oneself, but worshiping an internal aspect of the spark of life within, the divine, such as selflessness in thoughts and actions, positive thoughts, respect towards others and nature, honesty in all matters, and purity, among other things. These deities appear to be iconographic methods of reminding ourselves of the attributes within us. Everywhere we see these deities, we remember these traits about ourselves.

    How can I frame this for myself? I have always thought that we humans ultimately make the world as it is, ceterus paribus. If we encounter a flooded creek in a church bus, we don't pray to god and proceed across, thinking he will protect us. Instead, we use our heads to get ourselves out of danger. The real power lies within ourselves. The laws of physics and nature are not going to be suspended temporarily to "save" people in a bind. That is a "get out of jail" card, so to speak.

    Imagine a world operating like this. Given the same bicycle, same condition of bicycle, same relative health and energy levels, riding on the same path under the same weather conditions using the same gears, one moment, every downstroke of the right foot every 1.5 seconds results in a speed of 8 MPH, then another moment later, with NOTHING changing, not even the gears, you slow down to 4 MPH, or in the next moment, again without anything changing, suddenly, the bicycle sprints up to 30 MPH. Would you have any confidence of living in this world if you couldn't predict the results of your physical actions?

    Another example. Construction work. One moment, you drive a nail into a 2X4 stud, the next moment, it is impossible to nail anything because the nails are as fragile as wheat pasta, then the next moment, you drive the hammer right through the wood because it is suddenly the density of balsa wood at the moment you hit it. How would you get anything done if your physical world was not predictable? Hence, the need for that eternal balance between order and chaos. You see, a universe based upon the balance between jami and prthak.

    The way I see it, we, you and I, created this world for ourselves, but it had to be designed to run on its own so that the majority of us spirits could participate in this world at once, with only the spirits having left their now-dead bodies back into the spiritual states, maybe only for a time to reflect/learn, and get ready to be injected into another body upon conception.

    This must be why I don't see much of anything external to me, you, all people and this physical world we live it. For all we know, there may not be any entity running this whole thing except when some physical emergency exists and the spirit with the knowledge receives a message upon physical death of the body that something is not right (hence, the short human lives so that whatever is wrong in the physical world doesn't get out of control too far for it to be fixed). It is like a party where everyone joins in, but one person, the cook, goes into the kitchen (signifying death) to check on the dish to make sure it doesn't burn, and returns to the party in the living room (signifying rebirth into the environment), and it repeats itself until Moksha is reached (the cook says that dinner is now ready, to come eat). However, if the cook purposefully did not want to leave the party (life, living for thousands of years in the same body without ever leaving it), then the dinner (physical world imbalance) would be destroyed, and a new dinner would have to be made or rescheduled. Scaling down the vast to the everyday, as it were.

    Did I understand?

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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste dA,

    I would advise you not to imagine things and create a theory for yourself without experiencing the Truth. You are not alone seeking the Truth. Many people in the past have treaded the path leading to the Truth. If you tread the path carefully, the Truth will reveal to you too.

    Swami Vivekananda was a disciple of Ramkrishna Paramhansa. Vivekananda (known as Narendra before getting dikhsA by his Guru) was skeptical on issue of God. Let me tell you that Ramkrishna experinced the Truth through Dvaita Path (i.e. God experinced differently from creation) and also through Advaita path (God and the Creation are non-different). So, before Vivekananda became his disciple, he put this question first before Ramkrishna :

    "You keep talking of God. What is the proof that God exists and if It exists, have you seen God yourself ?"

    Ramkrishna replied :

    "Yes, I have seen God, more clearly than I see you."

    Vivekananda was impressed with this confident reply but was not yet assured . He felt that this belief (of seeing God) could be his mental delusion. He challenged Ramkrishna,

    "If He/She can be seen by you, He/She can be seen by me too. Can you show Him/Her to me ?"

    "Of course. You appear too worried about your worldly problems. Mother (God) is inside. Go and ask her yourself.". Ramkrishna said.

    Vivekananda went to room where Mother Goddess KAli image (Murti) was installed which Ramkrishna worshiped. Vivekananda didn't find the Murti (of stone ) there. It was Mother (in woman form) in flesh and blood which was lovingly smiling at him. He rubbed his eyes to make sure that it was not an illusion. It was not illusion. It was Mother in the form in which he wanted to see Her. There was no confusion at all. Vivekannada prayed to her to give him the gift of dispassion, devotion and JnAna.

    Now, was the question on Advaita. Vivekananda could not believe this even after assurance/explanation from Ramkrishna, his Guru. One day, he was refuting the Advaita philosophy derisively in front of his friends in the Ashram. He was saying, "This appears to be most ridiculous to me. If Advaita is True then I, you, these cups/plates too must be God alone (they were drinking tea at that time)! How can anyone believe this ?". Incidently, Ramkrishna was passing by and he overheard this discussion and arguments of Vivekananda. He said, "You are going to experience this very soon."

    During a bhajan session when Vivekananda was singing bhajan, Ramkrishna slowly came close to him and touched him with his one finger. As if a current went through the body of Vivekananda and he felt that the entire world was dissolving into him ... the earth, the planets and the stars ... everything. He got scared and cried, "What did you do to me ?". Ramkrishna said, "you are not yet ready for it. You will experience it again sometime."

    Vivekananda experienced the Advaita after a long time during one of his meditation sessions.

    So, logic doesn't make the Truth or alter the. Truth need not be logical as you may like it to be. Truth is what It is and is as It is. In fact. logic should borrow its strength from the Reality as It is. It doesn't need your arguments, which are all based on fallacious assumptions based on your limited experiences, to prove its existence. Experience the Truth. Don't try to assume things. Assumptions and your logic won't take you to the Truth.

    ******************

    If you are interested, please read MAndukya Upanishad and Katha upanishad which would help you to certain extent. MAndukya Upanishad has only 12 verses and it gives the best description of the Reality/Self/Brahman which is One but apparently perceived in four parts : this Gross world (our life), the subtle world (world before birth and after death), God and the untainted un-describable Reality which cannot be given any name and is called the Turiya or the "Fourth" which is the substratum of the three parts discussed above.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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