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Thread: Bhakti worship is not right for me

  1. #21

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    Namaste Karaka, what is typical of superficial people? I am confused about your wording. Are you referring to the people at the temple? If so, can you please elaborate more on your answer? This was my first exposure to such temple people, ever, so I wouldn't know what to look for. Well, I have some idea... But still...

    Dhanyavaad
    Namaste deafancient Yes i was indeed referring to those people. And those people are NOT bhaktas by any standard so please dont undermine yourself by giving those thugs any sort of importance. They live on leeching others off with their sheer stupidity. They win by emotionally blackmailing people and yet shamelessly accept donations from the same people. But those shameless people dont realize that if radha madhav is pleased with them they dont need donations from others and if they really need donations it means they are just one among the million cults that are spreading in the world specifically to spread the age of Kali in the name of God. By superficiality i mean that they attribute their cultural prejudice to God. They limit God to the form that their culture teaches them totally forgetting the fact that sanatana dharma is not their grandfathers property and Krishna the supreme God belongs to everyone and not just theirs. By superficiality i imply that they think Krishna is limited in the statue that they worship but they forget to worship living conscious souls who are direct imparts of the same Supreme one.They forget that the same Krishna comes as all the souls and that all the souls are interconnected. Deluded by ignorance they keep thinking that they achieve god but they only boost their duality and separation from the supreme soul. Just like a moth stuck in honey these thugs devoid of any knowledge and full of dual emotions, live on criticizing others and end up in the worst hell called ego. So please dont doubt yourself. My advice would be stop going to that godforsaken temple. Read good books which teach you how to live the life free of duality and ego. Read books on yoga and even Bhagavad Gita. You will understand what Krishna wants and not what his "bhaktas"want. You and Krishna are related so those thugs are not the CEOs of Krishna nor is krishna a property of anyone. The only person who would realize once Krishna takes His birth in your heart is you and not others. You will notice yourself becoming free of ego anger and you will see Krishna in everyone including animals. Till then just read the Gita and dont even go to those thugs as they are present only to destroy humanity, compassion and intelligence

  2. #22

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste,

    Don't feel bad... There are things that we can't help with.

    Who knows what this path will lead to, given my unique circumstances?

  3. #23
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste deafAncient,

    Having read more, I realize I've misunderstood a few key things till now. I have a few questions, if I may, and no worries if you are uncomfortable answering so would rather not.

    When you stop translating and just sit in the sun or under the stars, feeling and experiencing creation around you and yourSelf, what do you feel? Forget physics - how can God create anything but something perfect, something self sustaining with all the needed laws that will allow it to just continue. Let all knowledge go and sit in that primordial state you have access to. Do you feel there is an indescribable energy there that connects everything, is everything but also is more than everything?

    If you do, do you think or feel there is Divinity in that? Something Sacred? Even if it IS you, too?

    If your honest answer to that is no, then have you looked into Buddhism or Jainism?

    I feel that LightofOm has given some great advice here. For instance, you ask why you should worship yourself. Some might say because you are a perfect creation of/piece of God. You are worth it, and you deserve and should demand your own respect before you can really give it to anyone else. You seem to agree with Advaita, though perhaps I misunderstand. So if you are Advaitin and also a Theist, then you are God. If you Love God, how can you not love yourself? Why is that so unthinkable or strange? Most people who have been indoctrinated into a culture from an early age are taught to reach for ideals they are told they can't possibly reach because they aren't good enough - they forget they are good enough before they have solid memory. People in Western, Abrahamic cultures especially are taught they have something intrinsically wrong or sinful about themselves. So they need reminding to Love themselves and be open to Love. This practice is a reminder and eventually reprograms the mind to a calmer and more content state.

    It's possible you don't need this reminder, but it's also true that when we concentrate on thinking and learning and figuring things out too much, we forget to simply stop and feel. And this is the core, you can't try to understand it, you stop trying to understand and just feel. I suspect that while you don't have the internal talking voice most of us do, you have replaced it with translating to a small extent and this gets in the way. This is why Bhakti yoga might be good for you - to remind you to let go of the intellectual bonds you did form. Everyone can get good things from every yoga, regardless of their spiritual level.

    Of course, as ever, this is just the way I see things. I hope I have offended or imposed on none.

    ~Pranam
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  4. #24

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste to all,

    Karaka, I noticed when the preacher told me that their Jagadguru was no longer with them in body. There is the big, ornate chair that he sat in off to the side in that big room where devotion happens, and in the chair is a photo of him. Aren't they supposed to get the next guru to succeed him? It's my understanding that shruti is supposed to be kept alive and fresh in this manner. No worries about that "god-forsaken" temple, as it is too far for me to go there on a regular basis, and after reading about half of that book, or a fraction, rather, I had the feeling that what was there just wasn't right for me. I think you may be right about the "bringing on the kali yuga" themselves. Which shows that the yuga would be going on practically forever from a human perspective. I believe that if we get together and really work on this as a inter-civilization effort, then we would turn away from the kali yuga. We have the potential, but the question remains, "Are we willing to do that?"

    Aanandinii, in regards to what I feel when I am mentally still, all I can figure out how to communicate this is that I feel a sense of awareness. I don't know that what I feel can be described at all. I, as Kṛṣṇa, would have to give you, Arjuna, the vision while upon Kurukshetra because all of his questions could never elicit the experience of Kṛṣṇa in words, and can only be experienced personally. I have never been able to bridge that gap in order to share that experience with another person.

    I don't know how to respond with the word "sacred," because I think of that word as used in Christianity, which I don't exactly understand. I do know that it is something important to me, very important to the point that I've missed out on living like a successful worker bee in modern civilization. It does not begin to compare with what I know. I would not trade what I have for a worker bee's experience. It seems like I return to that place within the Deaf Years more regularly and more strongly as the years go by, and I've managed to use didgeridoos as a major tool to reinforce access to that place. This is especially so when I have realized that this is where I need to go, not where everyone else wants me to go.

    I also don't know how to respond with the word love. I guess I do, but it's untranslatable. I don't think it translates to any language, because it's indescribable, formless, nameless, conceptless even. What's odd is that when I attempt to figure out how to explain this experience, I feel this yawning chasm or gap of difference, of space, and that's when I realize that it's not possible to share this experience. That is where I stand at this time.

    Dhanyavād.

  5. #25

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Quote Originally Posted by Aanandinii View Post
    If your honest answer to that is no, then have you looked into Buddhism or Jainism?

    I feel that LightofOm has given some great advice here. For instance, you ask why you should worship yourself. Some might say because you are a perfect creation of/piece of God. You are worth it, and you deserve and should demand your own respect before you can really give it to anyone else. You seem to agree with Advaita, though perhaps I misunderstand. So if you are Advaitin and also a Theist, then you are God. If you Love God, how can you not love yourself? Why is that so unthinkable or strange?
    Namaste Aanandinii,

    I looked into both buddhism and Jainism about two years ago, but I find that they are not for me.

    The reason I say it's strange to worship myself is because I already know it. Do I need to remind myself of something I already know day-in, day-out? It's not that I think I deserve to be less than. Not at all. I'll be honest. To me, it's about economy of motion. I'd rather be doing other things. Or maybe I already do it through playing music, reading up on decolonization and SD in general? I do these things because I know I deserve to open myself back up again to the point I was when I was born.

    That reminds me... I wonder if anyone has talked of this in Dharmic society. It's rarely mentioned in western civilization (or maybe it's just a natural characteristic of a newborn baby); actually, I've never seen it mentioned ANYWHERE. My Mom told me years ago that when I was born, I was already able to see and visually track the birthing/delivery people in the hospital room I was born in. It freaked my Mom out because she had never seen it before.

  6. #26

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    I'm reading something about Sanskrit scholarship here -

    http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...n_frameset.htm

    This paragraph stood out at me (asterisk emphasis is mine):

    "Cultural specificity of theories can therefore be problematic if the theories of one culture are applied uncritically to the empirical reality of another culture. There are the Indian habits of mind and there are the western habits of mind nurtured over time by the specificity of the community's experience and these may differ crucially. It is these habits of mind that are imbricated deeply in the respective conceptual frameworks. The western linearity of time and thought with its in-built evolutionary imperative that is implicit in such structures as 'pre-X-post A' (pre-colonial, colonial, post-colonial) contrasts sharply with the Indian schema of cyclic and simultaneity. Similarly, the western binarism and the search for certainty differs from the either-or/both schema and the uncertainty schema of the Indian mind. The list is long - the teleological anxiety, the apocalyptic vision, the wait for the millennium, the redeemer expectation, the anthropological centrism, the conception of man as a sinner, a vengeful God, *** an ethics contingent on a personal God *** - all these western constructs offer conceptual opposition to the Indian habits of mind, at least to the non-Hebraic habits of mind."

    Comments on this paragraph?

  7. #27
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Hello,

    There are two paths to learning - one path is where the knowledge and practices are descending from the stalwarts and greats through the chain of disciples or excellent students of learning and following. The other is, ascending where "knowledge' is yet to be found, figured out, classified and excluded good from bad & suitable from unsuitable.

    Spiritual practitioners do not have enough life time to "research and learn' everything from scratch before practicing it fully either. So, the descending knowledge and practice system is the most suitable and this is exactly what the world spiritual practices or also religions are holding as their content.

    It will be more interesting to keep our quest open and allow more and more information to reach until what we can hold before making judgement or parallel comparisons.

    Interestingly, we do worship so many mortals in our day to day life and do provide service for various reasons with consent or without.

    In the world of realities, there is a natural degradation of beings and this is an hall mark ( though misunderstood as idea of slaves or slavery) of Bhakthi or devotion. I worship myself is mere reflection of ego alone - and worshiping such unseen ego is more or less lacking the logic provided for worshiping the deities.

    One liners...

    * Deities are not idols as in western understanding - From the view of material world and definitions they are statue or idols but when engaged in proper spiritual service, they transcend the material mode of engagement. Mixing it and making an opinion is ignorance which require more learning

    * Krshna is not limited to One Form - God is not Many either. Its irrelevant argument and hatred among newbies or total idiots who says Krshna is with only one Form or Form is the limiting factor to the idea of God. But knowing God is one, you must understand and admit, you are approaching that ONE God, path may be different but still you are approaching that One God!

    * Showing path to that One God - has many paths and yet some are progressive but not final and what is final is not relative. SD is inclusive of all these paths and sametime, do not approve or sanction any self promoted personal idea as spiritual or worthy.

    * Advaita is very sensitive and subtle philosophy - should not be mistaken or misunderstood that, it is advocating the idea of "Every one is God Now"! and act upon on that with personal sanctions

    Hare Krshna!

  8. #28
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste Grames,

    I probably shouldn't reply, but I find myself motivated here as I may have unintentionally contributed to what I think is a misunderstanding. But first:

    Quote Originally Posted by grames View Post
    Its irrelevant argument and hatred among newbies or total idiots who says Krshna is with only one Form or Form is the limiting factor to the idea of God
    (^ emphasis mine)
    I'm sorry, but I really don't see the point of using derogatory name calling and summary character/intelligence judgements of people you hardly know or interact with. This adds nothing to the discussion except to harm others and cause bad feeling.

    Let me apologize if your sensibilities, personal beliefs and/or experiences were offended in such a way to cause you to respond with these words. I am certain no one here intended such, and would like to point out several people here have said in their own statements that what they were relating was their subjective experience and understanding and not to be confused with others' experiences, or the teachings of other lineages.
    Simply because you and your Sampradaya do not agree with something said or it has not been your experience does not make it wrong; neither does it mean that concept is necessarily outside the teaching of another Sampradaya in SD, nor does it mean the person saying it doesn't understand the teachings they are learning. For instance, I wholeheartedly disagree with most of ISKON. But that doesn't mean that I would or should claim the Teachings are wrong or misguided flights of someone's fantasy, nor does it stop me from respecting the Sampradaya and it's Devotees and bowing at Sri Krishna's feet.

    Please do not take simplified, (perhaps at times overly-simplified), language as self-promoted ideas. As you say yourself, SD is extremely broad and complicated all on its own. Add that to a somewhat technical discussion of social mechanics and some light comparative culture and religion, in an imprecise and limiting language such as English which is not designed to handle many of the concepts that Sanskrit handles easily, then it is understandable that the conversation has to be somewhat generalized and simplified. Particularly for someone just beginning to formally learn these things. This is specifically what is happening here, and I think what you are doing is reading into statements which are very generalized and simplified for the sake of the main discussion with the OP about her unique challenges.

    "Advaita is very sensitive and subtle philosophy - should not be mistaken or misunderstood that, it is advocating the idea of "Every one is God Now"! and act upon on that with personal sanctions"
    Yes, it is. And as you have yourself shown in the Advaita sub-forum very recently, you are not a subscriber to Advaita and you don't fully grasp it yourself. So I don't see where you speak from a position of authority with which to criticize others here. It seems like you are either cherry-picking a line from context or misunderstanding the whole of the statement that was made. There is a big difference between:
    • Understanding that all that makes up nature and all beings and all soul are a part of, and non-different from God, and thus acknowledging that and bowing to that part of God that is You or your Neighbor or the guy you pass in the street; and in doing so accord the Love and Respect and Honor to all - including Yourself - that you would accord to God.
    and:
    • Putting yourself on that altar and conducting a puja to yourself because, hey, someone told you that you are God incarnate right here and now.
    Not one person here has advocated the second, or even implied it, (at least not to my own reading), but you seem to think that is indeed what was being said. Apologies if this was not clear. The point being made there is that most cultures - particularly Western ones - teach Disrespect of the self and others, to one degree or another, and that this is a form of reminding us otherwise. I don't see where anyone in this thread has mixed up the distinction between Deities and Idols, (except in one place where there was a slip of vocabulary but not in intended meaning), and I don't see where anyone has tried to place limits of form on God. Please clarify, if you're willing?

    ~Jai Sri Krishna

    All are my master. I am learning from everyone. I pick from everyone what I want and pass on, and they too. You must experience this and you will know the Truth. Aum.
    Satguru Asan Siva Yogaswami (1872-1964)
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

  9. #29

    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste Aanandinii,

    Your last post has me wondering about your post directed to me about being Advaitin. I have wondered about this. I guess I need help in determining what it is that I'm looking for within the Advaita perspective.

  10. #30
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    Re: Bhakti worship is not right for me

    Namaste deafAncient,
    Quote Originally Posted by deafAncient View Post
    Your last post has me wondering about your post directed to me about being Advaitin. I have wondered about this. I guess I need help in determining what it is that I'm looking for within the Advaita perspective.
    You know, I realize on re-reading that you never stated you were in so many words. I made an assumption based on a comment you made at the beginning of the thread, my apologies for that.
    Another part about #2 is that it feels like I'm worshiping myself. Why do I need to do that??

    This comment from post 9. It's not a statement one hears often unless the asker has either a tendency towards Advaita or towards Atheism. I have to admit, that same post made me wonder if you were a Theist at all, and at one point you mentioned Animism, which is why I asked if you had looked into Buddhism or Jainism. Perhaps you aren't Advaitin, there are other forms of Vedanta, or maybe you're not a Vendantin at all. Perhaps you're much more Polytheist or Animist rather than Monist. But these questions are where I would start. Understanding the social and cultural aspects of Dharma is important, but the religious aspect seems to be where you're hung up. If you aren't sure yet then perhaps you should nail down what you personally believe and then find its match in order to find your baseline within SD.

    People tend to gravitate to, or are attracted towards, the teachings that best fit what they themselves already believe, whether it's what they were taught as children by their family or what they just personally always knew to be true. Perhaps if you really are caught on this, the best place to begin is to define what 'God' means to you, and 'Love'. None of these are necessarily easy concepts. 'Sacred' is another tough one. There's what's in dictionaries, but those tend to be blunt and pale in comparison to the real things. Sometimes starting with what something isn't can help too - there's a similar meditation practice actually.

    Trying to describe internal experience, and knowledge from that experience, is probably one of the most difficult and impossible things ever. You are grappling with a very difficult problem there, one I would be comfortable saying most people have. This is why personal experience is so important, why people keep saying you can't understand it, you can only experience it. This is why Sri Vivekananda Swami couldn't know until he experienced. To sucessfully describe a thing, you have to be able to successfully understand it in words and language. Talk or write forever but no words can ever come close, it's an internal thing. For me, music comes closest. So in this case, not having had language and socialization hasn't hobbled any ability to try and describe it, you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Have a nice seat and a Vada Pav.

    The arts seem to the the best way of sharing these things for most people. You bring across your own experience quite well with your Didgeridoo, it's lovely btw. Maybe focus on sharing without words?

    ~Pranam
    Last edited by Aanandinii; 10 March 2015 at 07:35 PM.
    ~~~~~
    What has Learning profited a man, if it has not led him to worship the good feet of Him who is pure knowledge itself?
    They alone dispel the mind's distress, who take refuge at the feet of the incomparable one.
    ~~Tirukural 2, 7

    Anbe Sivamayam, Satyame Parasivam

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