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Thread: 'r'

  1. #1

    'r'

    Namaste,

    Being a bit of a non linear learner, I like to try to understand things as they arise in questions posed by my circumstance; I find that I remember these points so much more easily than any other. Which is why I am posting this question now.

    My jyotish studies have led to my researching the word svargā on searching this word I came also across the word svagā; for the usage it occurs to me that both are applicable, I see that in the devanagri the difference between the above the joining line and at the end of the word; Is there a grammatical rule that is simple to explain being applied here, are there perhaps some other examples of a similar application of the same?

    स्वर्गा - svargā

    स्वगा - svagā


    Thank you kindly for your consideration.
    8i8

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    Re: 'r'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Namaste,

    My jyotish studies have led to my researching the word svargā on searching this word I came also across the word svagā; for the usage it occurs to me that both are applicable, I see that in the devanagri the difference between the above the joining line and at the end of the word; Is there a grammatical rule that is simple to explain being applied here, are there perhaps some other examples of a similar application of the same?

    स्वर्गा - svargā

    स्वगा - svagā
    The word is Swarga (pronounced at the end as 'a' and not 'aa'). Swarga means 'heaven'. I am not aware what "Swagaa" means. Can you tell us where and how did you stumble upon these words ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: 'r'

    I was wondering of the same and quite surprised to read svargaaaa -- unless it is a joined work like svargAgaman == svarga + Agaman or svarga + gaman

  4. #4

    Re: 'r'

    Namaste,

    devotee, smaranam; yes you are quite right it is conjoined another word, please excuse my ignorance of the structure of Sanskrit. I see now that the ā is is present only when connected to another word; I was examining svargāṁśa in relation to the dasāṁśa definition; the D10. Wanting to use svargā (svarga) rather than the word heaven; preferring the Sanskrit over the English; Thus this search. Seeing now that I should have simply adjusted the ending. Yet, it is this trail that intrigues me so.
    In English we can write "heaven" but also "haven" both would apply in relation to this context, though they are quite different words in our modern; perhaps somewhat limited, derivation of understanding.

    svagā स्वगा

    Definition: ind. a sacrificial exclamation (expressing desire for prosperity)
    This clip is from the Monier-Williams Dictionary website; is this perhaps slang?

    There is use in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, perhaps in my ignorance of what looks to be a relative use though admittedly the sounds could be quite different; in the words sva-gātrāṇām or sva-gārhasthyam; Here we see the use of a hyphen and along with it another use of the word heaven in 3.33.15 as a description household affairs and wealth, and 3.30.25 the degradation of man.

    Thank you for your assistance in understanding; I am embarrassed that my level of Sanskrit is still so low even whilst studying such great works as those of the great bṛhatparāśara; I ask that you please forgive me that.

    It is to my regret that I cannot hear these words easily, preferring to learn the written/read long after hearing the words sung chanted or spoken; thus in full context.
    Last edited by Mana; 28 March 2015 at 02:29 AM.
    8i8

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    Re: 'r'

    Namaste Mana,

    I have not come across this word "Swagaa". For sacrifices, the words used as "Swaahaa" or "Swadhaa" etc. There may be two reasons : There are some words in every language which are very rarely used during interaction for one reason or the other and thus are known only when you look the word in Dictionary. Other reason may be that I have not heard the word because of my limited knowledge of Sanskrit.

    Keeping your interest towards learning Sanskrit in mind, I can give you some tips with whatever knowledge I have. Sanskrit language is highly scientific in the sense that for anything there is a logic and rule and every form is related with how it will be pronounced.

    For Phonetics, I will use :

    a == for sound of "u" in "run"
    aa == for sound of "a" in Gram or Calm
    i == for sound of 'i" in "Rich"
    ee == for sound of "ea" in "Teach"
    u = for sound of "oo" in "book" or "look"
    oo = for sound of "oo" in "loot" or "moot"
    e == for sound of "e" in "men"
    ai = for sound of "a" in "man"
    o = for sound of "o" in "Tone"
    Au = for sound of "O" in POT
    ang = for sound of "oun" in Tounge
    ah, : (visarga) = sound of "uh" in "huh"

    a) In Sanskrit nouns/pronouns change their forms mainly because of Kaarak/(Case in English) or Sandhi. Kaaraks are of eight types. How the word will change in a particular Kaarak will be decided by : Gender (there are three genders in Sanskrit) of the word, how it sounds at the end etc. For such parameters there is a table which decides the form of the word in a particular case.

    e.g. Gaj (the sound of "j" is pronounced quickly with any time given on sound "a" after 'j" and that is why I have not used a after "j" in the example) == This means "elephant". Now, "Gaj" is masculine gender with sound "a" at the end and therefore its form will change as given below :

    "Gajah", Gajau", Gajaah" when it used as "Kartaa" (nominative case). The first word is for Singular number, second is for Two numbers and the third is for Plural number. You will have to memorise the whole table of this word for all the cases. All the words which have similar characteristics like "Baalak" (child) will follow the same pattern.

    Similarly, if a word is Feminine or Neuter gender with a particular sound at the end it will follow a particular table. There are not many tables. If you can remember even 8-10 such tables, you will become very comfortable in such forms and their usage for almost all words.

    b) Sandhi

    When two words are joined together, at the point of their juncture, the sound changes as per prescribed rule. The common rules are :

    (On the left and right, the letters/combination of letters denote sounds as we have decided in the beginning of the post)

    a + a = aa
    aa + a = aa
    aa + aa = aa
    a + e = e
    e + e = ai
    e + ai = ai
    ai + ai = ai
    i + i = ee
    i + ee = ee
    ee + ee = ee
    u + u = oo
    oo + oo = oo
    o + o = au
    au + o = au

    "ah" i.e. ";" (visarga) changes to "r" while combining with other words. Guruh + Brahmaa == Gururbrahmaa

    Some consonants (the first character of a certain kakhara (like ka, kha, ga, gha, anga) , change their sound to third form of Devanagri alphabet in certain sandhi rule :

    "ka" may change to "ga" like in Vaagpatutaa (Vaak + Patutaa) , "ta" to "da" (Tat +Vishno = tadvishno) etc.

    There are some exceptions to the rules also and there are some other rules too. But to start with, I think the above is ok.

    ******************

    You have to identify the root words properly and look for changes due to kaarak and sandhi before you can decide upon the meaning of the words. In your case :

    Word : Swargaarohan == Swarga (Heaven) + aarohan (going upwards)

    sva-gātrāṇām ==> This word is used using "sva" meaning "self/own" and Gaatra meaning "body". Gaatraanaam is plural form of Gaatra.
    Sva-gaarhasthyam ===> This word is made up of words "sva"
    meaning "self/own" and modified form of "Grihastha" meaning "householder" (Gaarhasthyam means "house-holdership")

    Similarly Dasam (ten) + ansha (part) = Dasamaansha (tenth part). This has used a + a = aa.

    See this word from Svetaashvatar (== Svet (white) +Ashvatar (Mule)) Upanishad :

    Tasyaabhidhyaanaattriteeyam = Tasya (its) + abhidhyaanaat (by meditating upon) (Abhidhyaanaat is again modified form of Dhyaanaat by using "abhi" as upsarga with the word) + Triteeyam (third)

    Svagunairnigoodhaam = Sva (self/own) + Gunaih (mark the visarga sound) (means gunas) + nigoodhdhaam (veiled)

    Here visarga in gunaih has changed its form and has become "r" in "gunair"

    Dhaaryetaapramattah = Dhaaryet + Apramattah (a + a == aa)

    Vaayuryatraadhirudhyate = Vaayuh (air) + yatra (where) + adhirudhyate (doesn't blow)

    Sarpirivaarpitam = Sarpih (butter) + iva (just like) + arpitam (lying)

    tasyaabhidhyaanaadyojanaattattvabhaavaat = Tasya (its) + abhidhyaanaat (by meditating upon) + yojanaat (by this contact/union) + tattva (essence/reality) + bhaavaat (by realising)

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 29 March 2015 at 04:04 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #6

    Re: 'r'

    Namaste devotee,

    Thank you so very much for you considerate response; you have helped me greatly in my understanding; Exactly that which I was looking for.
    Much to learn; though I think this is a very good place start.

    Thank you kindly,

    OM
    8i8

  7. #7

    Re: 'r'

    Namaste,

    Quick to return, if I might ask you kind folk another question; is the 'r' depicted in devanāgarī script as the hook above the top bar; I apologise if either the bar or hook have a formal name; I am as yet unfamiliar with them.

    Kind regards.
    8i8

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    Re: 'r'

    Namaste Mana,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Quick to return, if I might ask you kind folk another question; is the 'r' depicted in devanāgarī script as the hook above the top bar; I apologise if either the bar or hook have a formal name; I am as yet unfamiliar with them.
    The bar is called "shirorekha" (meaning "bar on the top"), so your description is quite OK.

    See writing ways of R below :

    The first word in the table is RAM or Raam. The second one is not written correctly, so leave that. The third is above head-bar and is called "ref" ... the "ref" has been used over "ma" so it will be pronounced before pronouncing "ma". So, the word will be pronounced as "Dharma". "r" is also used in conjuction with other letters as slant line joined below the letter as you see in the next word, "Prem". In "Ta" instead of one slant line there are two but the pronunciation is same for the word as "train".

    **************

    I am sorry. The forum didn't allow the table to pasted it was. You can view words Dharm, Prem, Train, Shrishti, Shreya written in Devanagri. This will give you good idea of different ways this letter is used in conjunction with other letters.

    You may like to visit this www.bodhgayanews.net/hindi/HIN11_Script_Intro.pdf

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 29 March 2015 at 07:40 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #9

    Re: 'r'

    Namaste devotee,

    It certainly is a beautiful script, Interesting to read of candrabindu; Just yesterday I have learned that the correct spelling of chandra is actually candra. Although tables are wonderfully helpful once a system is understood, I find them very difficult to learn from; perhaps because I have not been taught how to study them correctly. Often, trying to seek the algorithm from which a table is constructed; so as to assist me is seeing them more easily in my minds eye; it is a highly mercurial habit of mine for better or for worse; Perhaps the reason that has initiated my original question.

    Thank you for your concise response I shall give them much thought, then print out the pdf and see If I can absorb some of the undoubted wisdom there within though I find learning with out speaking or hearing to be quite a difficult affair.

    I am fascinated to learn more of the transformation from verbal to written tradition in Sanskrit; has this perhaps been studied by any learned Indian scholars? I believe that there is a long tradition of writing also but perhaps the support was so fragile as to not have lasted over the years; Is there any truth in my assumption; For an example was Pāṇini work written down or communicated verbally?

    Please forgive my many questions; I am trying to learn how to learn and have always been very inquisitive when I would perhaps be better enable, were I to memorise the tables; is this done with rhyme or chant In schools in India ... ?

    Kind regards and thanks again for your help and advice.
    Last edited by Mana; 30 March 2015 at 03:26 AM.
    8i8

  10. #10

    Re: 'r'

    Namaste,

    Just a thought and a question if I may: In reading the word "Gururbrahmaa" I hear in my head the chant of my Jyotisha Guru reciting the 2nd stanza of the Guru Vandanā quite clearly; how delightful.

    A question if I may devotee ji: You have translated above Tasya as (its); This morning whilst reading the srimad bhagavatam I have come across the word tasyām from which I have thought of your post here in the SB it is translated as "on the bank of the River Sarasvatī."

    Is this due perhaps to a difference in the essential understanding of the state of being, what it means to be; between the different languages? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and clarification.

    Kind regards.
    8i8

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