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Thread: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

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    'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Namaste members,

    It is agreed a few minority Hindu extremists do exist. However, have you come across those Hindus who are ready to 'label' other Hindus as 'Hindutwa brigade' for their simple beliefs - such as faith in some customs, Orthodoxy, etc?

    These are some of the arguments put forth by those who make such claims:

    1. Saying that those Hindus who believe Hinduism to be the best among religions are 'narrow-minded' and lacking in brotherhood.

    2. Saying that all our simple beliefs and customs such as not donating curd (anything White for that matter) after Sunset, not cutting hair and nails on Tuesdays and Fridays, etc are mere 'superstitions' and ridiculing those others who believe in such simple customs.

    3. Saying that people have the right to tattoo Hindu gods images all over their body/anywhere including calf muscles, and it is wrong for anyone to point it out.

    4. Saying that 'excessive' spirituality is like taking a boat to get across an ocean, but 'not getting down' even after reaching the shore - ridiculing others for their spiritual sentiments and calling repeatedly they are doing it just for 'favors' from god.

    5. Saying that it is the 'birth right' of every woman to visit a famous temple or see the heads of mutts during menstruation and call those who believe otherwise as 'lacking in self-respect'.

    6. Associating spirituality itself with 'extremism' and 'intolerance' of other religions.

    7. If you are 'Brahmin' (an upper class under 'Varna' system of castes), and look for a bride or groom within the same class, you are a 'traitor'! To be considered 'truly spiritual' you should prepare to make alliance with other varnas.

    Any perhaps many more such instances...

    The problem is, such people holding contrary beliefs as stated above, 'brand' other Orthodox Hindus as 'Hindutwa', 'intolerant', 'lacking in brotherly spirit', 'lacking in self-respect', etc... How is it fair?

    By saying the above, it seems such people making these claims are trying to sound 'cool', 'broad-minded', 'most tolerant', 'brotherly', etc, but why do it at the expense of another innocent, Orthodox Hindu who is toiling everyday to cling to his/her customs, traditions and beliefs to get close to his/her chosen deva/devi?

    Please Note: Being a very tolerant person, I am not saying anyone should not hold contrary beliefs - including visiting temples during menstruation, disbelief in customs, intercaste marriage, etc, but why brand others who believe in Orthodox values? Why label them? Why not 'live and let live'?

    So the above is the reason I have placed this topic under 'Hot Topics' forum. If you encounter any more of such 'fashion' statements, please post here.

    Thanks,

    Viraja
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

  2. #2

    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    I'm interested in reading the comments about this, as I don't have any experience with this.

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    namaste,
    Unfortunately, it has happened here on HDF too.
    satay

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Dear Sudas,

    Ofcourse what you say is true. But from time to time, I am coming across individuals who call themselves 'Hindus' but are throwing questions at other Hindus on 'Why we consider ourselves the best religion?' and so forth... I will post another thread soon on (absurd) claims made by such individuals. Then you will understand why it becomes necessary to counter them objectively.
    I know, and fully understand, all too well why it becomes necessary to counter various propositions and affirmations placed before proud Hindus. However, various details must first be addressed. For example, who are the Hindus that exclaim that Hinduism is the best religion? A contextual analysis of the socio-cultural background of these Hindus would be extremely helpful. Either way, I shall, while diligently awaiting a detailed explanation that synthesizes this thread with the other one and their related purposes, attempt a brief approach at the subject matter brought up in this Hot Topics thread:

    The first inquiry is to whether proud Hindus like myself have come across "those Hindus who are ready to 'label' other Hindus as [a part of the] 'Hindutwa brigade' for their simple beliefs". And as to that inquiry, I can say with certainty that I have. They often describe themselves as "secular Hindus", making it a point to zero in on the adjective, "secular", before self-identifying themselves as Hindus. While they may do this for a plethora of reasons, three are pertinent: the first reason has to do with colonial mentality, which I list as a mentality of subjugation brought on by subject lessons; the second reason has to do with universalistic tendencies, which are often arbitrary and irrational---all in the hopes of reconciling various differences in order to (3) come across as more palpable for the exclusivist, and "mainstream", so to speak, socio-religious communities (i.e., Abrahamic).

    Therefore, most of the judgements they pass against proud Hindus (and please keep in mind that the "proud Hindu" classification that I use in this instance encompasses Virat-s, orthodoxical personas, nationalistic personas, and Dharmic solidarity individuals that stress on Bharatism which is a term that utilizes Dharmic realities and combines both Astika and Nastika not for syncretization purposes but for purely ancestral reasons) are due to, though they can sometimes be rational and neutral in origin, what they perceive to be empirical and current socio-cultural, socio-political lackings within Hindu socio-religious communities. However, where their arbitrary condemnations fail is where we notice the inadequacy of their charges: they are directed solely at Hindus using perspectives that are foreign to Dharmic epistemic and ontological realities, all the while surreptitiously neglecting, often outright consciously ignoring, more relevant and more popular instances of social, economic, and political drawbacks that come from the inherent, imperialistic monotheism of Abrahamism (e.g., you'll see this a lot: Hindus coming to the aid of, say, Muslims, while rarely ever defending other Hindus; the hilarious irony of it all is the extremely low amount of support that the very same Hindus that rushed to the aid of non-Hindus receive when situations transfer likewise). In other words, the application of Anglophone-centric views while looking at paradigms that are completely unique and unable to be, objectively that is, held under such scrutiny in the first place. Therefore, such quick and irrational lambasting done by "secular Hindus" fails in solidifying their own failures, not to mention the inherent absurdity of their proposed and irrational ideal of "brotherhood".

    I am tempted to simply rebuke such occurrences with the following: "the Virya does not tremble from the charges laid against him by the impotent". However, it seems that my earlier post was misunderstood and I was urged to understand why it becomes necessary to counter anti-Hindu encroachments, both from outside camps and self-identified in-camps. It's harder to engage such a topic on the grounds that the notion of why Dharma is the best fails in acknowledging indigenous perspectives all the while utilizing empirical comparisons heavily done by exclusivist entities. Dharma is not the best, in these empirical terms pertaining to compare-contrast analyses: it is, to the eye of both the proud Hindu and the Virat, all that is theologically and socio-politically relevant. Therefore, such an analysis directly involves foreign paradigms, and these are paradigms which our ancestors had no time for, and understandably so. These are irrelevant paradigms, and do not deserve an engagement in inquiry or entertainment. Though, to illustrate the "openness", or rather the leeway nature, of our Hindu convictions, it can be beneficial to entertain those paradigms socially and politically. Nonetheless, and therefore, this whole topic can easily be countered by a simple re-positioning of the inquirer's affirmations, using the same logic of the one condemning: (1) what validates the arbitrary criticizing of Hindus and Dharma to the exclusion of paradigms whose perceptive the selectively inclined incorporates in order to defame or denigrate Dharma?, and (2) why not acknowledge indigenous narratives and modes of understanding instead of applying imperialistic perspectives that do not merit replies exemplifying contextual understandings?
    Last edited by Sudas Paijavana; 10 April 2015 at 02:27 PM.

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudas Paijavana View Post


    However, where their arbitrary condemnations fail is where we notice the inadequacy of their charges: they are directed solely at Hindus using perspectives that are foreign to Dharmic epistemic and ontological realities, all the while surreptitiously neglecting, often outright consciously ignoring, more relevant and more popular instances of social, economic, and political drawbacks that come from the inherent, imperialistic monotheism of Abrahamism (e.g., you'll see this a lot: Hindus coming to the aid of, say, Muslims, while rarely ever defending other Hindus; the hilarious irony of it all is the extremely low amount of support that the very same Hindus that rushed to the aid of non-Hindus receive when situations transfer likewise). In other words, the application of Anglophone-centric views while looking at paradigms that are completely unique and unable to be, objectively that is, held under such scrutiny in the first place. Therefore, such quick and irrational lambasting done by "secular Hindus" fails in solidifying their own failures, not to mention the inherent absurdity of their proposed and irrational ideal of "brotherhood".


    I enjoyed the above words, Sudas ji. Thank you. It is true that for such Hindus, just because of the reason that something cannot be scientifically explained, that custom does not hold true. We can ask these very same folks if they can prove the existence of god scientifically and if not, why do they believe in god in the firstplace? And many more such questions... Also, it is true, these secular Hindus point to our customs, traditions and values and the "Orthodoxy" of many of us to be the values at fault for many of the 'social evils', but I am thinking that these social evils of a different form are prevalent all over the world, why blame some simple folks for something enormous in proportion?

    Your questions make the most sense:

    (1) what validates the arbitrary criticizing of Hindus and Dharma to the exclusion of paradigms whose perceptive the selectively inclined incorporates in order to defame or denigrate Dharma?, and (2) why not acknowledge indigenous narratives and modes of understanding instead of applying imperialistic perspectives that do not merit replies exemplifying contextual understandings?
    .

    Thank you for the reply.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namaste,
    Unfortunately, it has happened here on HDF too.
    Namaste Satay ji,

    I don't know if this was discussed in HDF. There was a recent movie "PK" in Hindi language -- I have not watched it, but in another forum that I am a member of, there was profound discussion on it.

    The most interesting part is that, it seemed the movie, though not intending to make fun of Hindu deities, nevertheless 'involved' Hindu deities in 'comedy scenes' and that most of these 'secular Hindus' said that the movie was very funny, we should all make it a habit to 'laugh at ourselves' from time to time, etc. while at the drop of the hat, the very same individuals come to the support of other religions and to protest for them!

    So it started appearing to me that afterall, such individuals are making all their claims for some 'forum glory' and not being true to themselves. For example, one of the most 'secular' individuals who always advocates on 'Inter-caste marriages' (he is Brahmin and I am one too) has a 34-old unmarried daughter and once I mentioned about 2 male relatives of mine of marriageable age, and immediately he PMed me asking if there are 'any suitable alliances that I know of, within our community!'. I did not know whether to laugh or not!
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Namaste,

    Not to hijack the thread but the movie pk is a good one. Yes it does indeed make fun of some hindu deities, specifically shiva, but if you can ignore that the movie tries to tackle a big question and proposes that 'God' is man made invention since it is no where to be found but since that would be too controversial the director settles by saying that persons pretending to be gurus etc are chartlans and that such middle men are not needed. I wish the director had stuck with the initial theme that God is human invention. I would have liked to see that explored that further.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viraja View Post
    Namaste Satay ji,

    I don't know if this was discussed in HDF. There was a recent movie "PK" in Hindi language -- I have not watched it, but in another forum that I am a member of, there was profound discussion on it.

    The most interesting part is that, it seemed the movie, though not intending to make fun of Hindu deities, nevertheless 'involved' Hindu deities in 'comedy scenes' and that most of these 'secular Hindus' said that the movie was very funny, we should all make it a habit to 'laugh at ourselves' from time to time, etc. while at the drop of the hat, the very same individuals come to the support of other religions and to protest for them!

    So it started appearing to me that afterall, such individuals are making all their claims for some 'forum glory' and not being true to themselves. For example, one of the most 'secular' individuals who always advocates on 'Inter-caste marriages' (he is Brahmin and I am one too) has a 34-old unmarried daughter and once I mentioned about 2 male relatives of mine of marriageable age, and immediately he PMed me asking if there are 'any suitable alliances that I know of, within our community!'. I did not know whether to laugh or not!
    satay

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Namaste,

    Let's drop whatever is not good and let's adopt whatever is good. Aano bhadra kratvo yantu vishvatah "आनो भद्राः क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वतः" |

    Let's not eulogise something just because we consider it "ours" or despise just because it is "not ours". Hindu Dharma has number of good things but at the same time there are a number of things which are discriminatory and unjustified towards a particular section/person. Moreover, as PK underlines the fact that faith of the innocent Hindus have become an easy tools for establishing business-houses by so-called BAbAs.

    Do you remember Self-proclaimed Paramhansa Nityananda who has no proper Guru-parampara and yet made millions by gullible words and deeds by duping innocent people. He tarnished the image of Hindu Dharma by his sinful actions. Then we have Baba Rampal, Asharam Bapu etc. who have done irreparable damage to the image of saints of Hindu Dharma. Let's us not support such Babas and their activities just because they are Hindu. Let a Criminal be a Criminal without any distinction whatsoever. There should be no Hindu Criminal and Criminals of other paths. Similarly, there are many customs that need change with time, e.g. Untouchability, Dowry in marriages, treatment to Widows, fleecing by Pandas leaving a bad taste in your mouth even in the holiest places of Hindu Dharma etc. etc.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #9

    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Namaste

    Can very much relate to points made by Virajaji and Sudasji and also agree with Devoteeji.

    A serious Hindu may face the ridicule and criticism of others Hindus and non-Hindus.
    These are parIkshA -- tests of our faith (shraddhA as well as nishThA). We must not get discouraged by that.

    How can personal orthodoxy be 'intolerance' ? If I do not join you in your ways how does that make me lacking in the spirit of brotherhood? In fact, if you are trying to deviate me from my good ways trending towards Bhagvan to your worldly ways away from Bhagvan, how does that make you a good brother to me? That makes you lacking in the spirit of brotherhood.

    It is possible to co-exist and respect each other without judging the other. This is real brotherhood.

    What is all this suppression of personal adhyAtmic practices as "Hindutva" by others? It is the very astitva of the real Hindu. As long as the Hindu is not being a tyrant going about imposing rules on others and society, it is unfair to suppress the Hindu spirit in BhArat Varsha like this. The Hindu should always set a good example without imposing on those who cannot relate.

    Regarding customs and decision-making in general, prANanAtha Shri KrshNa to the rescue :

    BG 16.24 tasmAcchhAstraM pramANam te kAryAkAryavyavasthitau |
    dnyAtvA shAstravidhAnoktaM karmakartumihArhasi ||
    What is right and duty and what is wrong or non-duty (a-kartavya) can be determined using scripture (shAstra) as the meter (pramANa). Realizing this, it is only appropriate for you to do that which is sanctioned and expected of you by the shAstra (scripture)
    Last edited by smaranam; 11 April 2015 at 06:16 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: 'Fashionable' Hindus and their statements

    Thank you for the kind replies, Satay ji, Devotee ji, Smaranam ji.

    Devotee ji, agreed, we should not incorporate or speak highly of something just because it is 'ours' and speak negatively of those which are 'alien' to us - a good message. (But these secular Hindus seem to be doing the opposite - speaking against all practices if it is 'ours' and speaking 'for' all those that are 'foreign'). Thank you for the good message in the necessity to speak out against those spiritual charlatans.

    Smaranam ji - Very well stated, "It is possible to co-exist and respect each other without judging the other. This is real brotherhood.". I agree with you.
    Last edited by Viraja; 11 April 2015 at 04:06 PM.
    jai hanuman gyan gun sagar jai kapis tihu lok ujagar

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