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Thread: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Back to my basic question.

    Do the subtle body and gross body remain constant quantum wise (???) ? If the cosmic mind remains totally calm (ideally), energy remains as energy (and not get transformed to atoms / molecules), but still subtle body remains and gross body remains as they are.

    Or is it that as that point all get merged into the substratum - consciousness ? Without the mind in action, the space and time are gone.
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  2. #12
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste,

    If all disturbances in Consciousness (which create Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain. Here all the phenomena die out. There is no time and there is no space and there is no scope for duality and so there is neither the Cosmic Mind nor the individual minds. This is the state called as, "Prapanchosamah" in MAndukya Upanishad and that is the fourth i.e. Turiya.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #13

    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste devotee ji,

    Thank you for this insight; a cue for me to revisit this wonderful upaniṣad with a new perspective. I can not help but wonder; how can this state exist. Without an observer such as śiva, how can it be known that the field of ākāśa is not still vibrating, ever so very slowly, thus still making a sound?

    The subject of probability in math, explains this requirement very nicely when we attempt to make a random generator.

    Is not OM all pervading; before and after all existing even without the manifestation of kāla, which is quiet arguably within the mind of the beholder thus manifesting long after sound ...

    Kind regards.
    8i8

  4. #14
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste Mana,

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    I can not help but wonder; how can this state exist. Without an observer such as śiva, how can it be known that the field of ākāśa is not still vibrating, ever so very slowly, thus still making a sound?
    Actually, the pure consciousness alone exits and it is always present as the witness. Gaudapad says that nature of the Cognizer as witness is never lost. But the vibration is not a physical vibration ... it is arising of thought-waves in Consciousness and that creates all the Prapancha of the three states (Waking state, Dreaming state and Deep Sleep state). ... and how will it be known ?? Its answer can be known exactly only after Aparoksha Anubhooti i.e. Direct Perception of the Reality. By reasoning, discussing, by reading books etc. it cannot be known because it is not some knowledge which has to be gained by someone else. The knower and Knowledge are not different from each other in this state and that is why it has been said to be self-destructing knowledge.

    The subject of probability in math, explains this requirement very nicely when we attempt to make a random generator.
    Can you explain this further ?

    Is not OM all pervading; before and after all existing even without the manifestation of kāla, which is quiet arguably within the mind of the beholder thus manifesting long after sound ...
    Yes and OM is also what is in-between the states of manifestation and becoming unmanifest. OM is the ONLY Reality. This alone manifests as the three states and it is the fourth which alone is the reality. This is what MAndukya and other Upanishads say.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  5. #15

    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste devotee Ji,

    How fascinating to hear of Gaudapad in such a conversation, such a beautiful tradition and heritage that is quite simply a delight to discover; Just reading now on the subject of Catuṣkoṭi, it is quite fascinating.

    How to best explain the thought of probability in relation to vibration or lack there of. The notion relates inherently to scale. If a vibration is either small enough or large enough either way it will appear to no longer exist; By its being present but not visible, at the current perspective and at the current scale. How this relates to probability is simple, though difficult to explain; I shall do my best.

    The first thing to mention is our inability to model random events, a little know fact; in 'reality' the only events that are randomly generated, that do not require an observer, are generated by radiation be that either light heat or radioactivity.

    Any other means known to man of generating a random event, inevitably involve both gravity and an observer; such as rolling die or tossing a coin.

    Should we attempt to program a computer to create a random event; this seemingly simple task is quickly found to be totally impossible. Now you might well at this time be asking what has this got to do with OM and with whether or not the field is manifesting another axis or dimension by way of its its oscillation, creating both knowledge and of the observer. When a computer is programmed to imitate a random behaviour, the output; when visualised next to the plot of a genuinely random event, is very close to the reality. However, if the genuine random event that is being recorded, is pursued for long enough; it will always eventually generate a string of events so very highly improbable; that they will render the relationship correlation between our computer generation of randomness and its real counterpart irrational. So very wrong that its results will be totally erroneous for quite some time to come. Unless another depth of resolution is added the model; requiring an ever more hungry computer ever more power and ever more time; Thus the modeling of random nature no longer fits the reality observed in any way shape or form. The computer is in a mathematical sense, skipping a beat and losing touch with reality. Of course on a Universal scale this would not be happening within the realms of time, not as we perceive it, and I am metaphorically speaking here, so that perhaps we might as simple humans possibly begin to imagine what may have been happening before the big bang. By Big bang of course, I am stating here in terms for occidentals readers amongst us, as the subject is relevant to the current discussion, we occidentals seem rather sadly, to be somewhat obsessed with guns and explosions thus we see them every where; there is of course no audible sound at this stage in creation and certainly not at the time scale of humans, perhaps there is sound in this happening but upon or within the time scale of the gods; as vāyu tattva vibrates upon the field of ākāśa. I am referring perhaps to the nature of time before the last stretch of events that were so improbable, that they may have led to the 'apparent' sleeping of OM.

    A possible conclusion of which, might be; that the apparently randomly emitted (dubious to suspect this to be random in light of jyoti) yet predictable background radiation of the universe, this could just as well be the residual sound of the last occurrence of a highly improbable event. Or more simply put, using the scaling effect inherent within the modeling of probability, to imitate the idea of knower and knowledge. Connecting thus the inherent issues in our own inability to creates any random events whilst not recognising that we can not, and to suggest that the inherently random nature of light emission and radiation be thus also be entwined with relativity. Thus our perception of both the start of the universe, in the manifestation of the elements, and the creation of our perception of time and of God.

    All of which as stated by Gaudapad are pervaded by OM; present throughout every stage of creation including beforehand and no matter how improbable; The improbable here being, the very essence. Our inability to recognise that we can not create any random events, being caused by our own detachment from OM.

    Thank you for enquiring devotee ji, I think it has done me some good to express this, to get it of of my chest as we say in England. I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on the matter of probable cause in relation to OM.


    Kind regards.
    Last edited by Mana; 30 April 2015 at 02:01 PM.
    8i8

  6. #16
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste Mana,

    I can only appreciate your post which seems difficult for me to understand ! Your knowledge of probability and mathematics match that of a scientist and I am far behind your level of understanding !!

    I can say only these things from my knowledge of scriptures :

    Creation was not a probabilistic random event. There was never a time when Brahman and its MAyA didn't exist. Yes, manifestation and un-manifestation of the universe is a continuous unending cycle. I would like to equate it with primal cause of the universe with some Grand Black Hole (which consumes even all other black holes and finally remains the Only Black Hole) when everything becomes unmanifest including time. However, the same Black Hole (we are still unaware if this happens) can keep the signatures of everything that has merged into it (I read about this theory somewhere that the signatures of things being consumed into a black-hole can stay in the black-hole) ... If that is true then some unknown law of the Nature can create everything back as they originally were.

    My Guru ji says that Evolution (the process of manifestation of everything) and Devolution (the process of everything going unmanifest) is a natural cyclic phenomenon. There cannot be a time when it all started because before manifestation ... there can be no time.

    OM is the Only Reality and this alone is called as Brahman / Self etc. Now, how it can explained with the theory you have attempted, is perhaps beyond my capability. Yes, I am eager to learn from you on this subject.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste devotee ji,

    I must apologise if my offering is difficult for you to follow. Perhaps this is how certain ideas are currently being expressed in an occidental tong and to scientific minds, rather than in Sanskrit which it would appear is a much easier language in which to express certain concepts and thoughts; this morning I have learned the word vidhātā, it would seem to me that science is currently examining the extremities of this and not of entirety, as you have wisely stated. These ideas have already been expressed so many times before, in the wonderful dhārma of this tradition; as is the very nature and essence of sanātana dhārma its self; quite the opposite is my case, with my still requiring much learning to have anything approaching a firm footing in this wonderful tradition.

    My mathematical thought here is perhaps only really of practical use in explaining another perspective to the occidental mind. Particles and matter being only an assessment of the harmonics and rhythms of manifestation, within the field of probable events, at differing energy levels. To speak of partials as "glue"; need I say more?

    I am no mathematician either devotee ji, not on paper; I simply express things that I perceive with some very basic math mixed in. I do love probability though it can very eloquently explain that everything is inherently interrelated in a web of causality, by demonstrating the fractal nature of its boundaries or limits; which is roughly what was stated in my previous post. The pattern of emergence that is resultant of his own internal nature. To my mind this can explain such phenomenon as the ratio of the distance between the earth sun and moon, their being practically identical; an occurrence so improbable that it is self is most likely a reflection of the last high improbability event; which in all honesty is better described as puruṣa penetrating prakṛti, to my mind this ratio is that.

    I don't really believe in black-holes as such; I believe more so in topology and fractal geometry; see them thus as being a projection of a limited mind, to allow us to perceive things in a simplistic material way; there is nothing in science today that can prove that we do not have a tiny black-hole inside our own body's, from where the subtle body is penetrating our physical body, nothing to prevent this theory at all. The calculation that predicts a black-hole may also be rearranged, to state that all information be stored upon the surface of a black-hole is to perform a mental topological transform upon the notion of the fractal boundary, rather like Arjuna requesting that Kṛṣṇa readopt his human form, in chapter 11 of the Bhagavad Gītā the scientific mind wants god to be a large particle like blob; so he takes that form. Which is more probably; that this be physically placed in one spot in our material world or topologically dispersed along a fractal boundary in conciousness? The answer, to my mind, is that they are the same; the only difference being that of the perspective of the observer. By which I will freely ind actively encourage the thought, that we do not all have the same experience, nor do we have the same sensitivity to the degree with which the topological integration of conciousness with matter is present all around us. To imagine this boundary between conciousness and mater as a distant super massive sphere is rather a limited perception of what is highly apparent in everyday life and all around us; without using a telescope. Time is linear to some to others it is self evidently like a lotus flower

    It takes so very little imagination to realise the importance of Chandra's rhythms in the development of the human mind; one need only to look at human childbirth to know this, quite naturally then any apparent dynamic within the system of our existence, this need be examined fully, in order to more adequately understand our own existence, thus the notion of probabilities in relation to gravity being quintessential, and any results that neglect such in science are, to my mind, inherently flawed.

    Your Guru ji sounds to be very wise and learned in these matters as do you; and the description that you give seems very much more likely to my mind than a big bang; much more realistic given my personal objective perspective. As such I do not think that I have anything new to offer you devotee ji, other than a different translation of some very old teachings of the ṛṣi, a description of probabilities shifting is simply another way of describing the kalpa and the scale of the ages but in a more modern language; you see all that a particle physicist can really calculate, if he is honest, are probabilities; so this language should make his attention, where as use of another word will not. Underneath the words, as you well know; we are all talking about the same things.

    If I can think of a better way of expressing the same for your consideration, I shall do so; this idea is rather important to my current studies and research and I am still very new to my own studies with my Guru in the field of Jyotiṣa. Regardless, please excuse any difficulty that you might have in understanding my current line of thought and explanation, it is undoubtedly a fault of my expression and thinking, not in your understanding; I am still learning to express my thoughts and to write them down; I hope to improve with time. The study of sanskrit, though my approach is perhaps a little unorthodox, seems to be helping me in this.

    More work is to be done to make the thought more legible; I see a wonderful future for jyotiṣa in physics. It is the very tool of experimentation, the microscope that they are looking for. Once they get over their pride, so as to see that the path that they are walking has already be walked many times before.

    Kind regards.
    8i8

  8. #18
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Om

    Namaste.


    Sorry that I could not participate in the beautiful discussion for last few days. As in case of Devotee ji, I am also getting lost into the mathematics and probabilities though I know that they play a huge role in the universe, we know.

    My feeling is that, it might require different sets of rules and logics as we move from one layer to another. We know force moves objects (even it can be at sub-atomic levels). Now we do not know what moves energy. There can be waves in particles and energy but are they of the same nature and follow the same rules as will be at subtle matter level ?

    Is Om a representative sound at gross level or subtle level or at both level ? To what extent Om can be there ? From the gross sensory organs to the subtle sensory organs it can move from the physical to the mental world. Can it go beyond ? I understand it cannot.

    Blackholes and whiteholes are at gross level. Can their changes from black holes to master black hole or black hole to white hole relate to the subtle level existences ? I understand that the subtle world is beyond the gross world and its existence is independent of the gross world. Gross world is dependent on subtle world. Though state of subtle world is partially dependent of gross world, its existence is not. So the signatures remain inspite of gross matters.

    Similarly subtle world's existence is dependent on the final substratum Consciousness but vice versa is not true.

    Dependencies understood. But do these three states remain constant. The mainfestation and unmanifestation then becomes a function of the state of mind. If mind is still, it unmanifests and if the mind is active, it manifests. As we assume constant cycle of the birth and rebirth of universe, is the "still" state then only a theoretical possibility ?

    The other theory can be the manifestation and unmanifestation between consciousness and gross matter with the subtle matter acting as the conduit depending on its state. As mind becomes more and more active it is more manifestation and as mind becomes more and more inactive it absorbs energy and unmanifests.

    How does our scripture define these phenomenon ?
    Love and best wishes:hug:

  9. #19
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste Devoteeji

    I am going to re-write your statement thus:

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,

    If all disturbances in Consciousness (which create Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain. Here all the phenomena die out. There is no time and there is no space andthere is no scope for duality and so there is neither the Cosmic Mind nor the individual minds. This is the state called as, "Prapanchosamah" in MAndukya Upanishad and that is the fourth i.e. Turiya.

    OM
    If all disturbances inUNIVERSAL Consciousness (which create Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain. [So far so good. This is the final mahA-pralaya at the end of the mahA-kalpa].

    If all disturbances in INDIVIDUAL Consciousness (which PERCEIVE Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain for the individual jnAni who has realized.

    Here all the phenomena APPEAR TO die out.
    There is no time and there is no space and there is no scope for duality and soneither the Cosmic Mind nor the individual minds ARE PERCEIVED. This is the state called as, "Prapanchosamah" in MAndukya Upanishad and that is the fourth i.e. Turiya.

    ------
    So -- one being reached turIya, , but there are other minds not in turIya.

    The individual jnAnI who is in turIyAvasthA cannot erase the ontological existence of the Cosmic and other individual minds. S/he can only get rid of their own mind that is it. Then there is no question of perceiving other minds.
    Last edited by smaranam; 03 May 2015 at 10:48 PM.

  10. #20
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    Re: Is Mind the Converter of Consciousness to Energy ?

    Namaste Smaranam,

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    If all disturbances in INDIVIDUAL Consciousness (which PERCEIVE Cosmic mind and individual mind) die out then Pure Consciousness alone will remain for the individual jnAni who has realized.

    Here all the phenomena APPEAR TO die out.
    Yes, logically when we see from our gross state of existence what you say appears the only logical conclusion. However, Advaita Rishis don't accept the reality of phenomenon and if you see from their perspective, they won't like to add "Appear to" in the sentence. There is scientific proof that this is possible. How ? Suppose we didn't have the bandwidth of electromagnetic light-waves and there was X-ray alone for seeing things. Could we have seen the things in the same manner as we same them now. Their being in their shape and colour is only relative to our mind and availability of particular bandwidth of light-waves. We don't know why we perceive things in a certain way and not the other way is not because the things are created in that manner but is dependent also on how our mind is designed to perceive those things.

    The individual jnAnI who is in turIyAvasthA cannot erase the ontological existence of the Cosmic and other individual minds. S/he can only get rid of their own mind that is it. Then there is no question of perceiving other minds.
    Agreed again. However, there is still debate on this issue between people who think in your way and those who think otherwise.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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